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Thread: LOTR Prequel

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Looks like it's up to me to get the ball rolling on the new films. I've created two new threads under 'The Lord of the Rings The Movie(s)' one for the Hobbit and one for the the LOTR prequel.

New line have announced that Peter Jackson will not direct due to his refusal (or that of wingnut) to settle a lawsuit over the LOTR profits as part of a deal to direct the two new movies - which I think is a huge shame as we may end up with someone who has no passion for the films - so there's a campaign starting up to get New Line to bring him back on board. More on this soon.

My guess is that they're going to do a LOTR prequel based on parts of the Silmarillion covering the events leading up to the battle of five armies, the subsequent loss of the ring and then segway into the hobbit [Movie] - I don't think there's much mileage in the period between the hobbit and LOTR. What do you guys think?

Moderator Smilie Grondy changed 'chat rooms' to 'threads' in the first line of this post, for Planet-Tolkien.com's chat rooms are still non-functional.
I believe The Hobbit is a simple enough plot they can basically take the exact story to screen play and it'd be almost impossible to mess it up, but i don't wanna jinx anything so i won't say anymore on that matter.

I couldn't possibly seeing them make a 2 hour cinema based on the time period between The Hobbit and LOTR.

A LOTR prequel sounds very sketchy to me... First I have no clue exactly what Ages and events (I'm presuming the 2nd Age would have much influence on the film) they would include in this prequel and even the key point events which they should include, will only cause the story to be very complex for your average film viewer and average LOTR movie fan. I say movie fan because basically all of us here and especially the more 'hardcore' Tolkien fans whom love the books will have no problem following the plot.

However, we need to be honest and admit that there are much more average Tolkien fans who have only seen the movies or barely glanced at The Hobbit and/or LOTR and will find this prequel very confusing... That's even with Peter Jackson directing it, which it sounds like that won't be the case.

I'm thinking unless you've already read The Silmarillion you're going to be lost for this prequel.
Heh, suddenly my nightmare of a movie with Kevin Sorbo as Beren and Lucy Lawless as Lúthien rings truer...
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Virumor
Heh, suddenly my nightmare of a movie with Kevin Sorbo as Beren and Lucy Lawless as Lúthien rings truer...


GAhh!! We're doomed!
If there is a prequel what do you think the best bits to cover would be?

I think my nightmare would be a quentin tarrantino LOTR movie!
from the things I have read about the famous prequel I have come to a conclusion that the movie should be exactly what Grep has sad that it will not be .....by that I mean it should be the movie that covers the period from the end of The Hobbit to the beggining of the LOTR .... ona our Croatuian forum I have even come to a imaginarx nemae for that kind of a movie ......."The Adventures Of a Lone Ranger Called Stider." :lol:
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Sorongil sulanduneby that I mean it should be the movie that covers the period from the end of The Hobbit to the beginning of the LOTR ....


You're joking right? Like i mentioned my previous post on this topic, that's exactly what it should NOT be! Talk about boring.... What is the movie going to be based on? 120 minutes of Bilbo mumbling sweet endearments to his precious? Face the facts, if you're having a prequel to LOTR and within the period span of 70 years from The Hobbit to LOTR the ring sits in Bilbo's pocket in The Shire... sorry but that is boring.

They should start off the movie by quickly glancing at the end of the 1st Age and showing the rise of the Numenorians, the creating of the magic rings, The Last Alliance battle, when the white council discovers Sauron in Mirkwood and removes him from there. (That takes place during The Hobbit but is never actually mentioned in The Hobbit. There for it'd be a great way to tie The Hobbit and prequel together too!) They could briefly show Aragorn as a child and such. Don't ask me how they should end the movie i'm just throwing out ideas what the movie should be based on.
Nope I was'nt joking , kidding or anything of that sort I will try and find where I have read that ridicolous idea then I shall post a link so u can see for yourself .... and ur ideas are not bad at all ....but that would be the prequel to The Hobbit and not to the LOTR ....but if they try to do that wich u are suggesting then they should make the entire Silmarillion into a movie ((( OK now I'm joking ))......
ya i understand what you're saying about the movie being a prequel to the hobbit instead of LOTR. However if you take some ideas i threw out there and also (very loosely) touch bases on the hobbit, it could become a prequel for LOTR.

I just don't see the movie having much point and action if you base it on the 70 years that take place in between The hobbit and LOTR. They already loosely touched bases on that with the prologue during FOTR and also ROTK.
I think the prequel will concentrate on the events leading up to the forging of the Rings of Power... ie the second age.

Like LotR started by giving a glimpse of the War of the Last Alliance, this one may show the battle at the end of the First Age and the fall of Morgoth. It may then show the Elves of Ost-in-edhel and the Dwarves of Moria during their golden age, and the coming of Annatar. Hopefully they won't reveal that Annatar is Sauron until he places the One Ring on his finger and is revealed to the Elves.

I think it may then merge the war of 1693-1701 with the war of the Last Alliance and the defeat of Sauron. Most likely it will end with Isidur losing the ring at the Battle of Gladden Field.

The Love Theme... Maybe Elrond and Celebrian

Personally, I don't think they will venture into the First Age.
A movie about the first age would be facinating.
I would love to see how they would have made the Valar......

(When is the hobbit coming out!?)
The logical thing to do (if only to avoid prequel prequels) is to start at the beginning with creation and music and then make umpteen films based on Sil stories ending where the LOTR Prologue began.
Yep i completely agree with Valedhelgwath!! Majority of the film will be based on the 2nd Age, it would be nice to show the last battle of the 1st Age and it should definitly concentrate on the Numenoreans too.

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Vee
The logical thing to do (if only to avoid prequel prequels) is to start at the beginning with creation and music and then make umpteen films based on Sil stories ending where the LOTR Prologue began.


That would be really awesome if they did that and i would buy every one of those DVDs, however, i don't really see that happening in the near future. I wonder how many movies it would take for New Cinema to capture all of Tolkien's world in Detail.

Alas there is also the problem with conflict in The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, and i believe no one has a right to resolve that conflict and put it on paper/film unless it is Tolkien himself. Alas, that will have to wait for another life time...
I don't think the prequel will show anything of the Silmarillion or UT. I think it will simply be about the events leading to The Hobbit, maybe some explanation about the foundation of the Shire, the Baggins' family history, the earlier wars between Smaug and the Dwarves, Gandalf entering Dol Guldur and meeting Thorin in Bree, etc.

The Silmarillion/UT is simply too convoluted and obtuse to be put into a coherent movie. No prequel can show the fall of Morgoth without explaining who Morgoth is, or why there's war, which would lead to explaining everything from the very beginning which is obviously impossible.
They could also cover 'The Quest for Erebor' from the 'Unfinished Tales', which is about fifteen pages of narrative as told by Gandalf covering how he managed for Thorin Oakenshield to arrive at Bilbo's door. This towards keeping Smaug from becoming another of the Necromancer's (Sauron's) tools against the free peoples of the Middle-earth.

They could also cover the White Council's attack on Dol Guldo, which was brushed over in The Hobbit.
Vir, your comments about making the Sil into a film are valid. However, it is in the hands of unscrupulous film companies (when it comes to making money) so I do not doubt they would happily rewrite entire chapters in order to produce a 'filmable' story. A simple prologue could set the scene for the creation, the Valar and Morgoth all in a few minutes. Every film would be Morgoth versus The Rest of the World. Morgoth - The Quest for Domination parts 1 to 10 then Sauron, Son of Morgoth - Quest for Domination 2 parts 1 - 10. We could have Thuringwethil - The Wilderness Years, The Mouth of Sauron - A Soldier's Tale, Shelob - Web of Deceit, Saruman - When Good Turns Bad....

True Virumor, but when they made LOTR they don't clearly explain where Sauron came from, so they could get away with doing the same about Morgoth. <-- I know that's lame and wrong, but a lot of things they did to the LOTR movie was lame and wrong.

I honestly think they could very have a narrative at the beginning of the movie which describes how the 1st Age was full of sorrow and sadness, although it was the glory years for the Elves, the over throw of Morgoth, The foundation of Numenor and the Numenorears. Then the movie could actually start off sometime in the 2nd Age.

Actually, the more i think about it, the more a whole prequel idea sounds too lame. The time periods between certain events they must show are just too great apart to make a fluent movie.

The Hobbit and LOTR is a perfect candidate to make into a movie. Bilbo's adventure in The Hobbit is about 1 year? All the adventure in LOTR takes just over 1 year? Although in the in the books the whole LOTR is about 17 years? The unexpected part takes place 3001
Movies always seem to condense time into convenient packages... how many times have we seen an image of rooftops quickly alternate between summer and winter to show the passage of seasons, or the scene of a child suddenly becoming a man? As many of the wars in the Silmarillion involved the same sides... Sauron, Elves, Dwarves and Numenorians, I think they would just condense the whole thing into one battle. Also, as film-makers seem to like having just a few heroes rather than a cast of thousands, you are unlikey to see all of the book's heroes doing their bit... more likely you will see a small group of heroes (more than likely Elrond, Gandalf and Isildur) claiming all of the glory. As one of the heroes will most likely be a Man, they are going to have to condense the time frame to no more than a few decades.

As far as explaining the origin of the Dark Lords, or why they are evil, I don't think they'll bother too much. Maybe a voice over at the start for a few minutes will suffice. This is all you get in most movies; even in six episodes of Star Wars you don't really get any explaination of why the Sith are evil, or why the Dark Path appears more powerful than the path of Light. Most films seem content with "this is the way it is" and "don't ask any questions. If you want to know more, go and read the book," attitudes.

Maybe as well, we should all be careful what we write here... We should write what we want to see, rather than what we would merely accept. Jackson admited that he frequented many of the Tolkien sites to get feedback about the movies, and what the fans expectations and disillusions were. You may find we are actually assisting some lazy scriptwriter right now with his ideas Smile Smilie
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I honestly think they could very have a narrative at the beginning of the movie which describes how the 1st Age was full of sorrow and sadness

They could use such a Star Wars-like rundown in the beginning... "At the beginning of the Second Age, the Númenoran Trade Federation ran afoul of the forces of Mordor.."

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All the adventure in LOTR takes just over 1 year?

Three years starting from Shadow of the Past : 3018 T.A. => 3021 F.A.

Between the Long Expected Party & Shadow and the Past, is 17 years : 3001 T.A. => 3018 T.A.
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Virumor
They could use such a Star Wars-like rundown in the beginning... "At the beginning of the Second Age, the Númenoran Trade Federation ran afoul of the forces of Mordor.."

Haha ya! They should do that and also dub in a theme song for when the words scroll down... How about the Bee Gees - Staying Alive Big Smile Smilie
I'm with you, Val. I think we should say what we really want in the new movies. Otherwise, the new director/producer/writers won't have any chance of getting it right. I think that such a person, browsing this site, ought to read first what everyone has written about the LOTR movies. Then of course these threads on the Prequel(s) would be useful. But I wonder if this site will have much of an impact if we are competing with some others? Would they be more likely to pay attention to the "official" Tolkien site? Should we write/email New Line and tell them directly what we think?

As for me, I like continuity and attention to detail, to the AUTHOR'S detail. So the new movie should definitely bring back the actors who have played the roles that will recur wherever they can do so reasonably. It also seems to me that, if they are doing The Hobbit, they should include the other tidbits that we find out happened during that time but don't read in the book itself. This would include what the White Council did, Gandalf's trip to Dol Guldur, etc. Whatever fits that timeline would work. But the "other" Prequel--there's the rub. Has any clue of what they want to do come out yet? Or do they even know? I should think they would have to put together something on the 2nd Age and what led up to LOTR that is never covered in The Hobbit. The time between The Hobbit and LOTR might also work, but I think they would tend to make too many changes to Tolkien to make it "interesting," and I've had enough of "director's license," thanks!
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Should we write/email New Line and tell them directly what we think?

I'd expect a reply to that in the trend of "I see, you want detail? Go read the book and stop bothering us. We're trying to make a movie."
Not THAT kind of detail, Vir. I mean, the LOTR movies already had remarkable detail in many respects. This sort of thing should be continued. And since so much attention was paid to seemingly minor things in the spirit of making ME authentic, the director/producer, et al. should not balk at staying away from scenes like Aragorn falling into the river, Gandalf's staff being broken by Angmar, etc. ad nauseam. They are already giving the detail--just keep it on track!
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Gandalf's staff being broken by Angmar

Did that really happen? I -luckily- don't remember that.
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Gandalf-olorin
Gandalf's staff being broken by Angmar, etc. ad nauseam.

Ya i don't know where he's going with that bit either. Maybe Gandalf breaking Saruman's staff? I also can't recall who nauseam is? Is that a character off the Alladin cartoon? Prince Nauseam?
Funny guy, Turin! But yes, Vir, the scene that Jackson ad-libbed is in RotK in the EDVD edition. The scene of Gandalf meeting Angmar at the gate that Tolkien wrote is really exciting, so I don't think Jackson had even a dramatic reason to change this.
OK, I only watched ROTK once and it was the theatrical version. No wonder I'm not familiar with that.
And for all you neophytes out there, 'Angmar' is the Head Black Rider, the Chief Nazgul, the Witch King of Angmar.
"You're joking right? Like i mentioned my previous post on this topic, that's exactly what it should NOT be! Talk about boring.... What is the movie going to be based on? 120 minutes of Bilbo mumbling sweet endearments to his precious? Face the facts, if you're having a prequel to LOTR and within the period span of 70 years from The Hobbit to LOTR the ring sits in Bilbo's pocket in The Shire... sorry but that is boring."


Yes Turin I absolutely agree with you, you put it very well and hilariously. what a snoozer.
I hope, I very much hope that these prequels are not as boring and silly as the first two for Star Wars. arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
As for prequels, why not make a movie about the life of Aragorn before the War of the Ring, hence between 2931 T.A. and 3018 T.A.? It would be extremely interesting to see, his mother bringing him to the House of Elrond as a child where Elrond fathered him... and undoubtedly lil Aragorn and Elladan-Elrohir became the best of friends... I can imagine how the twins taught him to hunt, swordfight, archery and wooing Elven damsels. I wonder if lil Aragorn also befriended his own Nellas like Túrin had done?

Then at age 20 we'd get to see Elrond revealing Aragorn's true heritage to the young man... then Aragorn meeting the likeness of Lúthien ("Tinúviel! Tinúviel!") and the beginning of his travels - particularly the meeting with Gandalf and their various journeys together would be thrilling to see.

And then finally Aragorn's years under the service of King Thengel of Rohan and Steward Ecthelion II of Gondor would begin, during which Aragorn was revered by both Lords' peoples as a true hero...

The movie should then end with a heartbreaking notion - Arwen declining the Dusk, when she stood before Aragorn on the Hill of Cerin Amroth like a white marbled pillar... or it should rather end with Aragorn putting his precious heirloom, the Ring of Barahir, on one of Arwen's fingers and then saying goodbye to her, muttering Arwen vanimelda, namarië...

Really, there are numerous interesting possibilities for a 'LOTR prequel'. A movie about Denethor, Finduilas and their sons would be interesting to see to. But I guess that is NOT going to happen...
Forgive me for being a stickler for Arda's "essence", but I personally do not wish to see any prequel movie to LOTR save the Hobbit. There just isn't enough detail for moviemakers to make the stories of Numenor, Aragorn, Denethor or others into a movie. And that would leave everything up to the screenwriter's imagination, of course, which would then be really really cheesy and designed to drasw praise from the majority of the population today (meaning that it would probably be unfitting for Arda). And although I do like hearing and reading other people's opinions and thoughts on what might have happened in the spaces Tolkien left blank, I would definitely not be able to SEE it in front of me, real and lifelike, because the image would stick and my mind would be forever tainted with it.

So there now. Go on and taunt me for this post.
Lol, no I see what you mean. I just saw FotR again, and it all sounds and looks wrong. I've read the books agin since then, and the images in my head make so much more sense than the movie!

I guess I'm not too interested in the characters lives preceeding LotR. What I'd really love to see though, is the making of Tolkiens universe, from Varda the star kindler to the stories of the Valar, the silmarils and the first age and the Pelori mountain ranges being raised - how the world came to be what it was before the LotR took place. Some of the first words you hear in FotR are "The world is changed" then fairly soon everyone sets out to defend it. The universe itself, their customs, history, everything is in danger - a movie showing what that is, how amazing the universe Tolkien created is, would really be something to see. Fairy tales I guess, what Bilbo told Frodo when he was young, the songs and myths that preceeded LotR and made the world. The history of the names, places, the stories in the appendix - all the tiny details.

And yes, the chances of that are around about zero, as it would never make a coherent story and the only people who would likely watch it are probably on this website. But I would love to see it.

Tall ships and tall kings
Three times three
What brought they from the foundered land
Over the flowing sea?
Seven stars and seven stones
And one white tree.
-- J R R Tolkien
It would be possible to make a film of the Sillmarillion but it would be at least 3 volumes to get everything important in and it would have to miss out some less important sections. having said this, it would be very difficult to produce and i dont think there would be enough interest. also, part of the magic of the silmarillion for me is the mystery and ancient folklorish side to it, something which would undoubtably be omitted in a film. the second age may be more likely, including the making of the rings of power and of the fall of numenor, but most likely is a film just of the hobbit. a flim of UT would be quite pointless seing as it is a series of essays commenting on various ambiguities in LOTR, The Hobbit and THe Silmarillion.
For over a year I've been reading about a prequel idea put forth by Helge Fauskanger (his language site, Ardalambion, overshadows his LotR prequel idea so it's obvious why most people haven't heard of it) about the Downfall of Númenor. See here: The Optimal LotR Prequel Idea.
yeah, the second age with the downfall of numenor would be pretty cool...
I agree with Vee, where better to begin than ........at the beginning. How awesome to see the music and all that comes after. They could do it quickly like pixelation if must be. But without the very beginning it seems pointless. The only thing is that in the hands of well just about anyone out there in Hollywood land and anywhere else it will be so mixed up and convaluted most of us will have to bring along our sedatives or relaxtion techniques so we don't end up in hospital by the end.
I don't suppose any of you truly gifted individuals just happen to be producers, directors, screen writers with a little sum of a hundred million or so hanging about in the bank? Because if it was so it would be a prequel to remember through the generations, of that I am certain.
I personally think that the Prologue of the Hobbit should start with the killing of the trees, then to the rebellion of the Noldor andthe Kinslaying, thenhow the Noldor came to Middle-Earth then Dagor Dagorath then the Fall of Gondolin then the fall of Nargothrond then the ruin of Doriath then the war of wrath, then the Numenoreans and how their power grew and then the Akkalabeth , and Sauron's spirit comes out of the ater laughing and th screen turns to black, so the sequal is the LOTR prologue. Maybe I could turn this into a movie by itself.Big Smile Smilie
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then the Fall of Gondolin then the fall of Nargothrond


I do happen to believe that the fall of Nargothrond came first... Teacher Smilie Well I guess you could do some flash-back sort of thing, otherwise you'd have a few angry nit-pickers on your hands Big Smile Smilie . I personnaly would love to see a film covering the whole Silmarillion, but I just don't think it will happen due to the massive amounts of characters. Too bad.
I know, eh? The directors are gonna cuct out all the wondderful but small parts from the Sil. I have a feeling that it will turn out outrageouslsy. Fingon will be cut out, and they'll just proceed to Turgon in the High King of the Noldor stuff. And the House of Finarfin will be depleted to Finrod and Galadriel. And the house of Haleth will be wiped off screen. And grrr... That movei will be horrible...
Haha.. I just saw a tiny fragement of the 1977 cartoon of the Hobbit. It took me a while to realize that that grey-green, fish-eyed character crouching on a rock in front of Bilbo was Gollum... Jeez! He didn't even look thin! I wouldn't really blame the cartoon Bilbo for not looking frightened...

Whatever the Hobbit turns out to be... I hope to the Valar that it is not like this cartoon!
I just pray it won't be a "musical" Super Scared Smilie like the Rankin and Bass cartoon.
Well, to be fair, there is some singing in the book...
oh joy a thread for our very own movie outline
mine would begin with dwarves and heroic love story and a lot more of course

-march of dwarves in doriath killing king thingol and them taking the silmaril/nauglamir. now son-in-law beren with help of green elves and ents upon dwarves and retake silmaril. close-up of the silmaril on the nauglamir placed on luthien's neck. fade-out
at this scene voice-over of a short history of the silmaril feanor et al and how it ended in morgoth's crown
fade-in luthien and beren love story with their many adventures of disguises and countless deep slumber spells on most characters involved
* meeting and falling in love and a silmaril from morgoths crown as bride-price
*then we are introduced to a lot of characters and places : beren in sauron dungeon, huan tie-up with luthien, huan and sauron wolf-fight sauron's defeat, celegorm and curufin conflict, wolf and vampire disguises for beren and luthien so's they can enter angband
*how in throne of morgoth luthien's deep sleep spell on darklord then out come angrist in beren's hand to cut out silmaril. success !!! but wanting more cuts and wakes him up
*another werewolf to digitally create carcharoth ends up with a hand and the silmaril
*the great escape on the eagles of manwe
*intro mablung and beleg helping kill carcharoth to reacquire silmaril

then how luthien chose to be mortal for beren, then maybe here voice-over or flash scenes of descendants elrond et al given choice mortal or elven
then parallel scenes beren luthien dying or dead with aragorn and arwen same thing; maybe can use same scenes from lotr

short scene show their silmaril taken to the valar and star is born

jackson's council of elrond scene then close-up to elrond " i remember well the splendors of their banners..." to show he makes comparisons of the last alliance of men and elves with the war of wrath SO here show scenes of eonwe leading the host of the west and morgoth's host of the north

after victory eonwe refuses maedhros and maglor the 2 silmarils captured from morgoth. gets stolen the 2 die and how the silmarils ended up in the elements: sky earth and water
then cut to scene of the forging of the rings of fire water and air < insert here 500 years after defeat of morgoth> you see sauron in annatar attire helping beleriand elven smiths forging the rings of power

END

my prequel tothe hobbit would begin with gimli ha ha always start with dwarves is my theme opening a secret door and finding the original elendilmir which would somehow seque to tom bombadil telling the hobbits tales or him wearing the one ring that frodo had

but thats another post ... bec i like a bit of drama !!!!
You left out Felagund in the Beren/Luthien story. Very Sad Smilie
I would love to see gondolin on film Smile Smilie
O white city of seven names! Big Smile Smilie
ok *pat pats cloveress on head* ! the more werewolf scenes the better but must have the amarie felagund love story/reunion... that way at least two love story jst like n lotr


yah arath i think they should make a movie. after all it's tolkien's intro to the world of middle-earth...dont u want to try and make a movie outline incorporating other stories and then share it with us?
Im not good at making such things Smile Smilie
I can barely write
heh
They should definitely turn the Silmarillion or The children of Hurin into a movie.


P.S. It would be sweet.
As long as Lúthien's portrayer is hot, not to mention Idril's, Elwing's and Finduilas's, I do not care too much how the story will be stretched, bent and otherwise mutilated.
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