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Thread: Beorn and the beorningars

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Bottom of Page    Message Board > The Hobbit > Beorn and the beorningars   [1] [2] >>
Does the name beorningars (wich might be misspelled) have anything to do whit beorn? or does it refer to the men who lived near beorn?
The Beornings were indeed the descendants of Beorn, of the race of men , a type that were skinchangers.After Beorn's demise, his son Grimbeorn succeeded him and it is said that for many generations thereafter these people were still skinchangers.
On a side note regarding the Anglo-Saxon patronymic -ing...

'The patronymic -ing is used occasionally to form common nouns, as cyning, 'king', but more often with personal names to indicate 'the son of', as in ∆thelwulfing, son of Ethelwulf, or a tribe, as in Helmingas, descendants of Helm.' An Anglo-Saxon Reader (Krapp and Kennedy)

Tolkien also uses Helmingas in The Lord of the Rings and I think the same ending appears with the name Eorl, or Eorlingas 'the People of, descendants of, Eorl' and in Thengling 'Son of Thengel'.
You are very correct concerning the people of the Rohirrim. It sounds rather exotic somehow.
I think Helmingas and Eorlingas sound archaic. But then I only speak Amillican Anglish, so what can you expect? Orc Grinning Smilie
Honestly Grondy. Everytime I think of you as a modern Mithrandir you are silly!. Keep it up and I shall see you as Balou the bear in Jungle Book. Smile Smilie
It does sound Archaic, I love it. But then I love Latin and the Celtic languages.
I still cannot get over the fact you h ave a podiatrist friend that borrows your Tolkien. I shall never never never never never never get over it. no not ever Shocked Smilie
What is Amillican Anglish? I dialect of Anglo-saxon?
I am quite sure that dear Grondy means American English and is being silly. I could be wrong. But I could be right. Smile Smilie
Leelee, 'the all knowing' has it right. Orc Grinning Smilie
I don't get it. (and I wish I knew how to make some crazy floppy-eared meat-wad face thing that would reflect my density)
"American English"? Some Albionites might call that an oxymoron.
Okay, would you believe Americanized English where we use "truck" in lieu of "lorry" and "elevator" in lieu of "lift;" and drop the "u" from many words ending in "our" as in honor and color.
Turinturumart, all you have to do is go and click the star thing when your replying in thread and when your on it go down the list and you will find the orc floppy thing.
'American English'??? I haven't heard of that before

English = England. The American people basically are British with a bit of American Indian thrown in. They come from Britain as do virtually all Australians with the exception of the very small minority of natives.
The Englsih language is defined in the Oxford English Dictionary, no other. If the American people decided to pick and poke at certain words thats there own doing. But to class it as another 'Dialect'?? I mean come on... Wink Smilie

BTW: we use truck on things that builders use to transport things around and the like. We only usually use lorry for the big transport vehicles like Tesco's use.

Anyway...little bit off topic.
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The American people basically are British with a bit of American Indian thrown in. They come from Britain as do virtually all Australians with the exception of the very small minority of natives.


Ummm I'm American and don't have a single drop of either British or Native American blood. Wink Smilie
I'm australian and I live in Canberra and I don't have a drop of Aboriginal or Torres strait Islander blood in my veins. Smile Smilie
I am of course talking about people born in American and Australia. If your another nationality and then moved there then of course this doesn't apply to you. But remember - the British empire only really died out a hundred years ago or so and once it covered a quater of the land and a quater of the worlds population! It was the biggest Empire ever and the Queen was the most powerful in the world. Likely that many people who live in other countries hvae also alot more British in them than they realise. But as for Australians there current population is around 20million. A fraction of that is the original native Australians which estimate around 450 000 about 100-150 years ago (I think). However there numbers have scarcely increased the last time I checked. The rest are about 95% British descendants from when we transported our criminals out there. The rest come from other countries, particularly the US.

For all I know if my great great great great Grandfather hadn't been a villain you might still be British Glorfindel... Wink Smilie

The same applies with USA only we didn't transport people out there as punishment so much. We just claimed the land and then later the British that were out there rebelled against still being under British control and adopted the title as 'Americans' for themselves. There really isn't much difference. Why do you think you have so many place names which are copied from us. Where do you think the name 'New York' comes from??? A new version of York perhaps? Paranoid Smilie

Anyway - good discussion. Good thing the original topic seems to have died down.
It needs be said that a lot of Americans have Irish, Dutch (for instance, the presidents Roosevelt), French (mostly in New England), Italian (the Don Corleones) and other European roots, due to the vast migrations to the Land of Opportunity in the second half of the 19th century.

There're more Irish in the USA than on the Emerald Isle.
Irish/British - to be honest I have never classed them seperately... Big Smile Smilie
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I am of course talking about people born in American and Australia.

Nope. I was born here in America, as were my parents before me, and their parents before them. But I'm still nearly 100% pure "Don Corleone" (as Virumor put it Wink Smilie ), and not a drop of Jolly Ole England blood in me at all. What Virumor said about the migrations, that's basically the explanation. Nowadays I would say the majority of Americans have very little ancestry (if any) dating back to the original English settlers. Sure, there are pockets of "Old Blood", esp. in New England, and in Virginia & the south, but even that's getting diluted as time goes on. More and more Americans are 'mutts' (mixtures) these days Dog Smilie Wink Smilie

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Irish/British - to be honest I have never classed them seperately...

Ooooooooooooooooo don't say that to any Irish-Americans, or they'll have your head! Wink Smilie And apparently the Scottish don't like being confused with the Irish either...but I have to admit, to my untrained ears the accents do sound almost the same.

-Meneldur, the Elvish-Italian-American Wink Smilie
They do? Oh My!
I have many Celtic ancestors and to me the Irish, the Cymru,(Welsh), the Scots, the Manx etc are so very very different from one another at some point. I have studied ancient Celtic Lore extensively and I find so many differences in a lot of areas.
When I was a very tiny child in the bustling metropolis I lived in, I remember the different districts distinctly, the Irish, the German, The Chinese, the Ukrainian,the English, the Scots, the Polish, the French. They were so very distinct and although many could speak English rather well they retained their identities and it was like going from country to country. I loved it. Now I see so many from the Pacific Rim countries as well as Indian and Pakistani and that is rich in culture as well. As a matter of fact the little city I live in which was once filled with Brits and Germans and French is now noted for being a rather Indian city. It is amazing the ebb and flow of cultures, the movement of peoples.
I t hink the thing that puzzles me about the Beornings is the fact they could shape shift. Where did that come from exactly? It seems so bizzare somehow, Fascinating but bizzare.
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I have many Celtic ancestors and to me the Irish, the Cymru,(Welsh), the Scots, the Manx etc are so very very different from one another at some point. I have studied ancient Celtic Lore extensively and I find so many differences in a lot of areas.

Ahhhh see that's the thing, I'm an outsider to that, so it's very easy for me to confuse Irish and Scottish accents. Because of your background you have a vested interest in knowing and appreciating all those subtle differences. That's (sort of) how it is with my Italian background. Italians with ancestry from different regions of Italy often cook differently, and sometimes even speak differently. For example, Napolitan (from Naples) usually drop the ending vowels from EVERYTHING...at least here in the NYC area. We say mozzarell' not mozzarella, cappicol' not cappicola, and so on. *SIGH* but the worst part is that so many Italian American families are 100+ years removed from Italy (like mine), and each generation loses a little more of the "old ways", the ways that made us unique like what you're describing.

If you've gotten to live, work, and play among so many different ethnic/cultural groups still maintaining their traditions then you really are blessed. I love experiencing other cultures and learning about them. At my job my co-workers are calling me "Italian-Indian" because they're all from India and I just can't get enough of their food, their stories, their customs, their language. I even learned a Curry Chicken recipe which they say is quite good. Wink Smilie

So back to Beorn, yeah where DID they learn to change shape like that? That just seems a little too much like "Sauron as Werewolf" to suit me.
I see what you are getting at. Your saying that whoever was born in America and is not from Britian they aren't British.

What I am saying is that becuase you were pretty much all British to start out with then all the people who come from those Migrants are British there after. They were the only people out there with the exception of the American Indians.
I am saying that just becuase you are the 10th or whatever generation since the time when British migrants went out there you are still British. Just becuase you were born in 'America' it doesn't mean anything. Your long ago relatives were British so unless some other nationality came into your faimily you must be related to those who went out there. What your classing as true 'American blood' is simply the British blood from a long while ago passed on through the generations.

If a cake is run over by a car and then trampled on a dozen times and then mashed up and shaped into a new cake without any other ingrediants being added then that cake is still the same cake as the one before it. Keep repeating the process many times and you will still always have the same composition that was in the original cake. Call the last cake the 'American cake' and the first one the 'British cake'. They have different official titles but they are the same.
With that logic we are all Africans, since (according to some scientists) the human race originated in Africa. Or Edenites according to the Bible. Or Middle-Earthiens accoriding to Norse mythology.

The cake may still have the same amount of eggs, flour and sugar in it. But it will still have changed.
"The cake will still have changed"

In shape but not in Composition. If you made a normal Christmas cake and afterwards decided to shape into a square it is still a christmas cake. Smile Smilie

Following YOUR logic we would all end up as far back as bacteria from whence all living things on this earth came.
I am talking about modern history. Not BC.
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Your long ago relatives were British so unless some other nationality came into your faimily you must be related to those who went out there. What your classing as true 'American blood' is simply the British blood from a long while ago passed on through the generations.

Meneldur clearly stated he was from Italian descent.

You're disregarding the descendants of Afro-American, Latino and non-British European migrants in America.

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So back to Beorn, yeah where DID they learn to change shape like that? That just seems a little too much like "Sauron as Werewolf" to suit me.

Nature magic. Witchcraft. Sorcery. Things that got you burnt at the stake in Medievil times.
Blah... lost my post. It had something to do with cake, and now I'm hungry.

I think LoA is saying that if you are living in the US and can trace your family back to the first British settlers and not a drop of Dutch, Norwegian, Latino or any 'non-english' blood has entered your family during that time, then you are British? I would have said you were an American with British ancestors.

As for Beorn, to me he is a bit like a mini-Bombadil. A strange, mysterious being which doesn't really fit in with the rest of Tolkien's world, but provides a safe shelter and help to our heroes.
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As for Beorn, to me he is a bit like a mini-Bombadil. A strange, mysterious being which doesn't really fit in with the rest of Tolkien's world, but provides a safe shelter and help to our heroes.

Indeed, he doesn't fit in. Let's gather a mob and burn the fiend! And while we're at it, let's pass Laurelindorenan to get rid of that vile Sorceress of the Woods.
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I think LoA is saying that if you are living in the US and can trace your family back to the first British settlers and not a drop of Dutch, Norwegian, Latino or any 'non-english' blood has entered your family during that time, then you are British?


Correct. But now they are classed as American. But classification alone does not change what your made up of. Big Smile Smilie
One pair of my grandparents were Czech and came to America during the last quarter of the 19th century. One of my other grandparents was a Cameron and whose father came from Scotland. My other grandparent was French-German and his parents were born in this county and came out west in covered wagons via the Oregon trail.

America is a great melting pot of immigrants and after about the second generation their descendants become thoroughly integrated and just call themselves Americans. As long as we have been able to do this without the hyphenated prefixes of origin, we have been able keep from becoming Balkanized; however, this may not be easy to maintain, for many of our newcomers do not wish to assimilate, but to maintain the cultures and languages of their homelands.

I think we should not dwell any more on what I've written here, for that discussion could turn political and would require the heavy boots of AmariŽ to stomp out of existence. Elf With a Big Grin Smilie
Little Amarie has stomping boots? Well if so they are lovely, pure leather and rather magical I should think.
I suppose the thing with Beorn and his descendants is that like the Hobbits, they suddenly just appear in Middle-Earth history and one cannot seem to trace them back and see how and when this gift of Illuvatar came upon them and why.
With Mithrandir, one can see why he looks elderly and shrouds who he really is because our Author allows us into the secret. But with Beorn there is nothing. And I should very much like to know where a fellow picks up a great bunch of fastidious, talented , cultured and gifted servants who never miss a cue. And they are animals. Where else in all of Middle-Earth does one find creatures that can do this sort of thing? Where do they come from?
It is all such an intrigue, how I wish I knew.
Lord of All, my family tree came from Latvia, Ireland,Italy,England and Japan.I'm not as likely as you to have a great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandparent that's a Villan.Oh, I forgot my blood thing.
-Japanese 50%
-Latvian 25%
-Italian 12.5%
-English 6.25%
-Irish 6.25%
A bit of a mixture, hey! Smile Smilie
what's your's? Elf Confused Smilie
You should try and find out when these other nationalities came into your family history. It might be that most of those nationalities were already present in your British ancestors that first arrived in America. Not nessersarily since then.

As far as I know I am 100% British fortunately.
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-Japanese 50%
-Latvian 25%
-Italian 12.5%
-English 6.25%
-Irish 6.25%

Awsome!You have even calculated the %. Orc With Thumbs Up Smilie I'm just Norwegian.

Buuuuuut this thread is suppose to be about Beorn and his family. Maybe we could get back on track?
I hear the faint call of the 'Stomping Boots' approaching...
These boots are made for stompin'
and that's just what they'll do
one of these days
these boots are gonna stomp all over you.
Very Evil Smilie

...

Maybe there aren't much more to say about Beorn. His animal servants/helpers are a bit much though (in my opinion), I keep picturing the deers and bunnies and birds from Disney's Snow White. Would I want to eat dinner from a table set by a horse? No, not really... But, then again, I'm sure it would be hard to say no had I been there. Wink Smilie
I'd say it depends on how hungry one was. The Dwarves abd hobbit were quite peckish by the time thsy arrived at Beorn's home for helpful animals.
Well, I for one wouldn't mind if our cat and dog learned how to cook, serve dinner, and do the clean up. All I know is, it sure would save ME a lot of work, LOL!

Picturing in my head, "THE BEORNING OBEDIENCE & BUTLER SCHOOL FOR ANIMALS", LOL!!!
Yeh, that will be so nice to get your pets to do all the work for you so that you don't worry about homework doing chores,cleaning and other stuff. Life will be sooooo much easier. Smile Smilie
Beorn, being a skin-changer, has obviously got some way to communicate with his animals which the normal non-skin changing person (except, perhaps Radagast the Brown?) hasn't got. Hey, maybe Beorn IS Radagast. In disguise. (I'm only half serious). Didn't he dwell near the western parts of Mirkwood for some time?

Or, perhaps Beorn is a descendant of Radagast. Like Luthien the half maia, we now have another family of half-maia.... that could explain some of the oddness of Beorn.
I don't think ither are right. Well your only being half serious but in Tolkien's books it does not mention anything about Beorn being a descendent or being Radagast. Well I'll double check that. Read Smilie
There is nothing to support Beorn being a descendent of Radagast. And seeing as one is Maiar I think it highly unlikely.
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Or, perhaps Beorn is a descendant of Radagast. Like Luthien the half maia, we now have another family of half-maia.... that could explain some of the oddness of Beorn.

Good point, but I think Radagast would be so occupied with his birds and other wonders of nature that he'd never pay even the remotest attention to women, let alone feel the urge to suffer the slings and arrows of romance and courtship.
Gandalf thought that Beorn was kin to Men who had originally lived in the North I think and had lived in the Misty Mountains because of his great knowledge of them. At any rate for some bizzare reason he was a skin changer and so were his descendants as far as it is known.
I think of all the animals for some reason that served at mealtimes as being sparkling white and immaculately clean with no wet noses or anything the least bit unclean. Where you would find these creatures that could do all this I have no idea. Perhaps Beorn was like a horse whisperer , only with all creatures . I have no idea. I thought it was rather unique, but then that is the magic of fantasy, anything is possible.
I doubt the Radagast theory - But assuming that Beorn has Maia origin is interesting.
It make me think of a very mysterious character of the Legendarium : Tur the magician that appears in the unfinished Gilfanon's tale (BoLT1). He was among the Avari at the time of the awakening of human (I think that Tur was also a name for Sauron but I doubt this Tur was Sauron). Since Tur was no Elf and no human he was probably a Maiar (or was he Tom Bombadil ?). And thta fact that there were Maia dwelling in this part of Middle Earth makes the theory of a human+maia descendance somewhat plausible.
Me thinks Beorn's skinshaping ability is just another anomoly that was added to this childrens' story to make it more interesting and it had no real bearing regarding the bigger world of Tolkien's Tales. Those ponies and dogs wouldn't have stayed around a great bear, domesticated or not.
You're right Grondy, what kind of sensible catCat Smilie or dog Wolf Smilie mouse or whatever will want to stay around a human that turns into a bear whenever he feels like it. Wiggle Smilie
However, by all accounts Beorn played a part in turning the tide at the battle of five armies, and that event did have an effect on the larger turn of events in the whole of middle earth at the end of the third age.

Maybe he's in a class like Tom Bombadil is -- unfathomable, unexplainable, but "real" (in the realm of middle earth) nonetheless.
It would've been interesting to read about Tom Bombadil, the Cacophonix of Middle-earth, turning the tide in the Battle of the Five Armies.

Two or three silly rhymes would've sent any army fleeing for their lives. But alas!, the Eldest one was also the most Uxorious one. Hence, 'twas a no-go.
There was an anomaly named Tom
To war he went with his Bomb
'A dillo,' he said
'I'm wrong in the head
I thought it was to the Prom.'
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