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Thread: The Darklord Smaug!

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It's a frightening thought, Cirdan. Smaug was intellegent, so I believe he could have used the ring. An invisible, magic wielding dragon, he would have been terrible. However, he was vain, so I believe he would have served the ring's purpose rather than it serving his. He would have wrought a great deal of damage before the ring eventually tricked him into being captured by Sauron. I wouldn't want to be Sauron trying to take it off him though.
Now I wonder why The Ring didn't try to leave Bilbo for Smaug. I suppose the ring recognized a will as strong as its own and decided to give him a pass. For this reason I think Sauron might have met his match had Smaug actually had control of the ring when they met.

The Nazgul wouldn't have helped as Dragons are fearless; and great hoards of orcs couldn't overwhelm him were he airborne. So unless Sauron could hit Smaug with a never ending stream from a water cannon, could toss a very large number of giant snowballs down Smaug's gullet, or battle him using a cold bladed light saber while wearing asbestos underwear, I think the Darklord Smaug would have been the final outcome. Very Sad Smilie
Could Smaug really have used it? because it had to be worn to make use of it, and I dunno if it'd fit on Smaug's finger (claw?)...so if it didn't fit, he couldn't be invisible, which means that some Orc archer could probably find that weak spot in Smaug's armor, and that'd be the end of him.
Leave it to Chikakat to use logic to blow our scenario to smithereens. Tongue Smilie Of course, maybe the ring can expand to fit the finger (or claw) of any creature that it desires to use enroute to returning to Sauron. Then agai others have said elsewhere, that the ring isn't sentient, so how can it adjust its size to fit? About that, I haven't I haven't the foggiest. Big Smile Smilie
If the ring didn't adjust its size and it was made for Sauron, I think Bilbo would have been able to use it as a bracelet.
I think, also, it had a tendancy to slip off fingers when a better wielder was close at hand. I think Smaug would have found this happening to him the moment he flew over Dol Guldur to confront Sauron.
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If the ring didn't adjust its size and it was made for Sauron, I think Bilbo would have been able to use it as a bracelet.


Very Big Grin Smilie Indeed, that's true. I could have put it in a better way.

This is such an interesting topic, I think I'll join in the thinking. Now if the Ring would have chosen Smaug as its bearer, would Smaug have been corrupted in the end? I think so, because the Ring's power is too strong for anyone to bear. But the Ring would have had a hard time to corrupt Smaug's mind, certainly. I think that's why it didn't choose to leave Bilbo for Smaug. Bilbo fitted its purpose better.

But sure, if it would have happened this way, it would have been Smaug for the throne. Dreadful thought, innit? Super Scared Smilie

[Edited on 5/7/2002 by TomBombadillo]
Maybe there was some kind of connection between Sauron and the Ring...?
Maybe Sauron could say what the Ring should do...There must have been some kind of connection, but what kind of...?
I think Sauron put a lot of himself into the Ring when he forged it. By that, I mean he bound some of his own spirit into it. Wearing the ring would have made him powerful, but without it, I think he would have been weaker than before he made it.
Because so much of himself was bound up within it, 1) it was sentient, and 2) it acted on his will, because in a way it was him. Because of this, I believe the Ring was searching for its true owner as much as he was searching for it, both parts wanting to become a whole once more. With this reasoning, I don't think the Ring would have settled for anyone other than Sauron, even Smaug.
Even with this link between Sauron and the Ring though, he never knew quite where it was when it wasn't being worn. Should someone put it on, however, he seemed to be able to home in on it in the spirit world (Frodo several times saw the Eye searching for him). His power over the Ring seemed very dependant on distance too. The nearer Frodo got to Mordor, the heavier the Ring became, and the more influence it had over him. I don't thiink it was just coincidence that after possessing it all those years, it finally took control at the very end. It was because that was the first time Frodo had taken it that close to Sauron.
Exactly Exclamation Smilie (What Val just said.) Smile Smilie
Yep sounds good! but just a small niggle. why didnt Bilbo feel the burden of the ring more when he passed so close to Dol Gulder?
Someone powerful also could have wielded the 1 ring to destroy Sauron, so I dont reckon it would have slipped from Smaug so easily. True the nature of the ring was to ultimately find its creator, but it could still have been used against him (i.e Galadriel when offered the ring declares that she will....well you know the rest!) So it seems possible that the ring would settle for someone other than Sauron if they had the strength to possess it. Smaug certainly had that strength! Smaug-toasting-Bilbo-gaining-ring=one badass dragon with the power of a maiar.....nasty thought Tongue Smilie
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Yep sounds good! but just a small niggle. why didn't Bilbo feel the burden of the ring more when he passed so close to Dol Gulder?
Well according to the maps in The Atlas of Middle-earth Thorin and company never got much closer to Dol Gulder than about 225 miles (360 km) so I suppose that must be slightly beyond the ring's interface range. Wink Smilie

You too can verify this on the maps in our Art Gallery; use the link in the menu there to the left. Smile Smilie
errrr, ok. Just checked...good point. Thanks Grondy!
Your welcome, and so was your question. Smile Smilie

I hadn't realized that Mirkwood covered so much territory, in the north-to-south direction. I think that's because of the 'Map of the Wilderland' in The Hobbit only showing the northern two-thirds of Mirkwood and not showing any measurement scale for determining distances. On our trek from Rivendel southwards we were on the other side of the mountains and weren't paying any attention to the lands to the northeast of Lothlorien, so we overlooked noticing that Mirkwood extends farther south than Lothlorion.

At least that's my story and I'm sticking with it. Very Big Grin Smilie
anyway, Smaug would have made a very interesting Darklord,. Certainly A LOT o' stuff would need to change in LOTR . Hobbits may never have taken a part for example.
terrible thoughtSuper Scared Smilie !!
What would happen, if there was Smaug in Barad-Dur and Sauron was dead. What would happen in Middle-Earth then? What kind of Darklord would Smaug be?...answers... Look Around Smilie
Suppose he would be flying over his territory at night, to steal people's gold and stuff. And he would probably make slaves to build him a golden palace or sth like that. I think he would have the desire to possess every bit of gold and jewelry in ME. Imagine an invisible dragon flying around at night. Super Scared Smilie
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Yep sounds good! but just a small niggle. why didnt Bilbo feel the burden of the ring more when he passed so close to Dol Gulder?

Erm... probably because when he was writing the Hobbit, Tolkien hadn't come up with the idea for the significance of the Ring?
IT'S JUST A BOOK!!!!!!! Wink Smilie
.......AND A MOVIE AND A SUBJECT OF DEBATE! Mad Smilie Wink Smilie and i'm sure he had the power of the ring in mind when he was writing the Hobbit.
aaaaanyway! after Smaug collects all the gold he'd just go to sleep again and so probably wouldnt be all that terrible. Not like Sauron wanting absolute domination. Would he have the desire to control slaves? I like the idea of a giant golden palace being built though Tom! Big Smile Smilie
Yeah, a giant golden palace based on Edoras with a dome, but much larger and with huge doors that a dragon could fly through when opened, and a cellar based on Moria as a place to store any treasure that was too lumpy for the Darklord Smaug's bed. Ha Ha Ha Smilie
Just wondering.....if baby sheep are lambs, and baby horses are foals, what are baby dragons?


My son wants to know.
awwwww! Kawaiiiiiiii! Big Smile Smilie

....have no idea, sorry!
Dragonettes, I think, except maybe those are dragon children?
Anyway I think baby dragons could be an another subject.... I think it was mentioned in The Hobbit.

As for Smaug as an owner of the Ring - an extra interesting thought (this phrase has been used many times). But as I am only halfway trough The Fellowship Of The Ring (a miserable confesion) I do not yet completely understand how the Ring affects people or dragons or elves or whatever. Can somebody shed some light on me ? As far as I can think the Ring though it gives you power (not only invisibility) at first it affects your thoughts in some strange way? Smaug was very ancient and powerful and the Ring would have to wait many years until it could finaly crack him. And in these years he could have destroyed quite a part of Middle Earth. That is tickling my brain !!!

Well - did Tolkien realy had something in mind about the Ring when he wrote The Hobbit - we will never know for sure. And it's not so important.
Good question, Allyssa. In Dragonriders of Pern, the baby dragons are called baby dragons. Before they hatch the group of eggs is referred to as a clutch. When the dragon hatches it is called a hatchling, then it is just referred to as a baby dragon.
Here is a site you may enjoy visiting.
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/8540/adopt.html


If I come across any other information I will be sure to post it here.
Question Smilie

very cute! however if Smaug ever became the darklord I think any baby photos of him would be locked up nice and tight. We cant have people thinking he's a cutie now can we?
As for new palace...I've been thinking and I reckon he'd prefer to sit tight at Erebor and get the dwarves to extend it for all the extra treasure he'd draw to himself. Gondor would remain only as long as there was treasure to be had elsewhere!
How big would dragon babies be when they are born? Heehee I can imagine Smaug as a little dragon with diapers and stuff... Very Big Grin Smilie
Dragon babies could even make nice pets. Kind of in the same way as baby crocodiles - cute and friendly whild little, but when they grow up....yikes! Big Laugh Smilie
Bit of a fire hazard too Lighening Smilie Jumping Flame Smilie
lol Big Laugh Smilie he'd be great at parties though.....come on come on! ok Smaugie light the bbq light the bbq! !BwoooF! ............Awwwwww soooo cute, look you've even burnt mr Tibs the kitty from next door! O who's my little Dragon Who is he who is he?? NOw Kids, who wants a flight around the garden? 1 at a time now and dont fidget cos Smaugie'll only get grumpy and you know what happened to little Nancy last spring when she started pulling his tail.........(and so on and so on..)
Wonderful!
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Dragon babies could even make nice pets. Kind of in the same way as baby crocodiles

Yeah, but just think what would happen if they got flushed down the toilet Super Wow Smilie
Anyways, I've got a theory to why the ring didn't leave Bilbo for Smaug. If Sauron put enough of himself in the ring for it to (technicly) think for itself, then wouldn't it also have emotions? Theory number 1, I think the ring was scared of Smaug somehow. Plus the ring was getting out and about with Bilbo, it probaly figured that Smaug might not recognise what it was and sit on it like he did with the rest of his gold. Theory number 2, the ring didn't want to get sat on by an over grown newt that probaly wieghed TONS, and I can't blame it. A dragons fir couldn't hurt the ring, but gettin squashed flat might Big Laugh Smilie
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A dragons fire couldn't hurt the ring,
Someone wise predicted that the Ring could only be unmade in the fire in which it was wrought and so doomed the Free People to take the Ring to the Cracks of Doom. So, did anyone queary this wise person's judgement and attempt to destroy the Ring in any other manner, or did they just blindly follow this prediction without question. Who knows, maybe a dragon's fire would be sufficient to destroy it. Several of the Dwarven Rings of Power were destroyed in this manner afterall.
Maybe, the people of MiddleEarth would have done better to turn a deaf ear to the wise soothesayers.
Without looking it up, I believe that wise person was Gandalf. And what he said was that there were no longer any Dragons powerful enough to harm The Ring, and probably even old Ancalagon the Black may not have had heat enough to do it, or words to that effect.
Uhuh...

Imagine having a fiery little dragon down your toilet! When you sit down, you'll have your *ss burned! Very Big Grin Smilie
I just feel sorry for the sewer maintenance people. It's bad enough having giant alligators, pythons, bats, rats and god knows what else in the sewers. But dragons? *shudder*

Imagine if, for some reason, there's an optimal stoichiometric ratio of air & methane in the sewers. Then add your fire-breathing hatchling.... Exploding Head Smilie
Exploding Head Smilie KAABOOOM!!!

" ... but I did put the toilet seat down! Its not my fault its now lodged in the ceiling!"
Very Big Grin Smilie
No words...
You're lucky still to have a roof for it to be imbedded in Grondy!
Lets hope the poor little critter didnt get any blowback....
Jumping Flame Smilie
Do you think that maybe Glaurung would be able to harm the ring, Grondy? I mean he was the father of all dragons right? Then he must“ve been god damn powerful!

[Edited on 29/4/2003 by Aulė]
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Do you think that maybe Glaurung would be able to harm the ring, Grondy?
Nope, here is Gandalf's quote from 'The Shadow of the Past' Chapter 2, Book I of FotR in his talk with Frodo.
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... It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, ...
(I high-lighted the pertinent part in bold.)

I believe that also rules out Glaurung, the Father of Dragons, the Great Worm, the Worm of Morgoth.

Did Val write a post on the types of Dragons on the forum within the last few days, or did I read that elsewhere?
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Did Val write a post on the types of Dragons on the forum within the last few days, or did I read that elsewhere?
I put one up somewhere, Grondy, but I cannot quite remember where. Maybe in the History Of section
okay.....
No but come on they really didn't try to melt down the ring, noe the melting point of gold is 1064.18 °C they stivk it on Frodo's fire which is probably about 350 °C, oh watch it melt! they should have gone to the lonely mountain and asked them to melt it down instead of ******* about on some crazy mission to Mordor!

Failing that why not ask Ulmo to take it to the depths of the sea where the atmospheric pressure will cause the little blighter to be crushed into oblivion!

[Edited on 18/3/2003 by Valedhelgwath]
I agree Perwing....I mean hello! Ross think about that if that was to be what they did then you wouldn“t be here at PT because it would“ve been a lousy book if then.....hahahha you need the excitement....
And if they should give it to one of the Valar why not me? I tought Sauron everything he knows about crafting things!
I really hope you're being Ironic, because you might note I was!
Hahahahahahaha I was ironic Ross.....hahaha didn“t it seem clear to you? Smoke Smilie
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Now I wonder why The Ring didn't try to leave Bilbo for Smaug. I suppose the ring recognized a will as strong as its own and decided to give him a pass. For this reason I think Sauron might have met his match had Smaug actually had control of the ring when they met


IMHO~

The ring was just lazy and it foresaw that a Hobbit would take it directly to Mordor, without it having to lift a "finger" .

I think the ring was just lazy...I mean you would have to be lazy to live with Gollum for 500 years before realizing you aren't going anywhere and do something about it yourself!
Yes, perhaps I was a little "hasty" to use the word lazy. I was in a silly mood Tongue Smilie

In all seriousness Perwing is absolutly right!
I don't think it was the battle that was short, Asteroth, just Tolkien's description of it.

The combined might of the Valar against one rebel would have been a fairly sure win, so I suppose that Tolkien didn't think the battle was exciting enough to describe in great detail. Don't forget it was Earendil himself (with the help of the great birds of heaven) who slew Ancalagon from his spaceship.
Don't forget the Silmarillion is just an edited version of Tolkien's great volumes of notes. I'd imagine if you were to read through HOME, you'd find a better description (or most likely, two or three different versions, of this battle).
Really Val?? Cause I have always wondered what really happened during that fight!
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