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Thread: The Darklord Smaug!

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Really Val??
I'm just guessing so, Aule. I've only had time to browse them, and jumped from Lost Tales to Morgoth's Ring without reading the eight books in between. What I have read, however, goes into so much detail about everything, there seems to be a page on average for every paragraph that made it into the Silmarillion. My guess is, the battle is expanded somewhere, although I haven't come across it yet.
Alright....Ill buy the entire HOME edition and help thee in thy search for the Holy GraalTongue Smilie
Hmm... You make a great point. I think smaug would have kept it to himself because he is pretty indipendent. He probally would have eaten sauron himself if he ever met him.
But I truly doubt that he would overtake Sauron.....dont forget that Sauron was the most powerful maia as Morgoth was the most powerful ainu!
and he did now dirty tricks of deciet still that old ******Wink Smilie

Again, Aule, I find myself having to edit your language. Please refrain from swearing in future. This is a family friendly site. Others have been banned in the past for bad language. I'm sure you don't want to join them. Moderator Smilie

[Edited on 28/9/2003 by Valedhelgwath]
It would've been smth, I'll give u that! I mean, Smaug chasing Sauron to fry his ... "ash"! hehehe
Still, if we were to get serious about this, I would say Smaug, even though he was materialy over Sauron, had no chance whatsoever when it came to spirit strenght. Sauron was way too powerful to be defeated by any dragon! And let's not forget that even if that happened, Sauron's spirit would have endured, cause he was bound to the Ring and while The One endured, so did he! Kind of a paradox, don't u think? To defeat the Enemy with his weapon, but to find yourself in the imposibility of destroying this weapon?

Namarie!
Ack! Just imagine what might have happened if Smaug did keep the ring! Theres a mega slim chance he might not have guessed what it was, but just imagine if he'd used it! Somehow I don't think one puny little arrow would have stopped him if he had!

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I just feel sorry for the sewer maintenance people. It's bad enough having giant alligators, pythons, bats, rats and god knows what else in the sewers. But dragons?

Actualy, the other day I read about there being giant pigs down there too! Also, there have been reports of humans living in our sewers and the london underground. Some of them have just dropped out of society, but others...others have been breeding down there for centuries, their bodys evolving to cope with the lack of light. They survive by eatting the food we drop...and the odd human being. Infact I have heard a few stories about london underground workers mysteriously dissapearing after they've wandered off on their own. Scary! Shocked Smilie
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... just imagine if he'd used it! Somehow I don't think one puny little arrow would have stopped him if he had!
Yeah, where would have Bard aimed that Black Arrow if he couldn't see the bare spot on the breast of the invisible Smaug?
Mind you, just cause your invisible doesn't mean your unkillable! Just look at the invisible man! He never saw that enraged mob comeing...well, actualy he probaly did now I come to think about it. But they still managed of kill him. Though I don't much fancy an enraged mobs chance against a dragon. Wink Smilie
Nor would a single arrow against an invisible target. Elf Sticking Tounge Out Smilie

[Edited on 18/11/2003 by Grondmaster]
Walk around with the arrow, stabbing wildly at the air. Sooner or later you will hit something.
...
However, if its not an invisible dragon then you've hit the wrong thing.
Well, can u really tell that Smaug would become invisible once he would get his dirty little claws on the Ring?!

Namarie!
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Well, can u really tell that Smaug would become invisible once he would get his dirty little claws on the Ring?!
No, but that is what happened when Isildur, Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam wore the evil contraption; however, there were different results when Tom Bombadil and Sauron each wore it. Here we are only surmising the invisibility for Dragons, it could just as easily smallify (miniaturize) them or change their appearance to resemble a root beer float. Anyway, I think the invisibility function still sounds the best.

[Edited on 18/11/2003 by Grondmaster]
I was just wondering, anyway! Invisibility sounds OK, though it could've been anything else as well! I'll go with u on this one, Grondy.

Namarie!
The way I see it, those mentioned who turned invisible did so because they were not already evil shadows. I doubt Smaug would turn invisible because he was already evil and part of the "shadow" world. Why wasn't Sauron invisible while wearing the ring? Edit: I should also mention that its kind of the same idea that Frodo can see the elves in a different world (i.e. a world of light) than the others of the fellowship, because the Ring reveals the other nature of the elves. It is that same effect that the ring has on its wearer, if the wearer is evil and is of the shadow world, he will be visible while wearing the ring, if he is good or evil and is not yet of the shadow world (I am guessing mortals are of neither world, unless given one of Sauron's rings) then he will become invisible.

As far as Tolkien's knowing about the power of the ring when he wrote The Hobbit, he said as much in his intro to LOTR that he did not know the power of the ring until he began writing the LOTR. As a matter of fact, he mentioned that while writing it, the story took over so that he was unware of what was exactly going to unfold until it did. I take him at his word. I have re-read TH, LOTR and Sil over the past year and am currently reading the Lost Tales I, so far I am through the earlier building of Valinor and the Chaining of Melko and no mention of Sauron.
A couple of more points, in the LOTR, Gandalf explains that he is more worried of Sauron controlling Smaug and using him against the Elves and/or Gondor. He did not seem to be too perplexed when he found out that the ring was so close to Smaug. Perhaps Smaug is not affected by the ring, same as Tom Bombadil?

Actually, the second point belongs more in the LOTR discussion group because it deals with the similarity between the need to kill off the Balrog and the need to kill off Smaug in order to keep Sauron from using them.
But surely the one ring cannot destroy it's own master since it has a will of it's own and it uses people and creatures to achieve its devious ends.
Anyone who wears the One Ring is not its master; the Ring only has one master and that is Sauron. Sauron can only be be destroyed by the unmaking of the Ring which requires someone with enough will power to toss it away into the the lava pool of Orodruin (Mount Doom). The Ring is trying to return to its master; it is unwilling to destroy its master.

Rather than helping someone unmake itself, the Ring's main power is to corrupt its current bearer into using it, thus making its master aware of its return from the lost by the ultimate rise in power of its new bearer. A side effect of this corruption is that the wearer will also want to keep it, ensuring the survival of its master, who couldn't dream that anyone would be so rash as to throw it away, let alone being able to do so.
Knowing Smaug (obviously, not personally), I think he wouldn't try wearing the ring. He would have just placed it as another article in his vast collection of gold and then would have slept on it. What a waste!

But then if he ever got around to wearing the ring, I think he would become invisible and then God save the people on the banks of the Long Lake!
I'd say!!!! RUN AWAY!!! But Tom Bombadil didn't become invisible because he was indifferent to its power, and it had none over him. And Sauron, well, he made it, of course he would be different. But a dragon.... Well, I'm still thinking it would make him invisible. He's certainly cleverer than some humans I know.... Ha Ha Ha Smilie
Dragons are intelligent and quite good at mind manipulation, I think Smaug would see that part of the Ring quite quick if he got his claws on it. I think he would try to win over the power of the Ring and find great joy in having someone/something who can give him proper mental challenge for once. "Oh so you try to manipulate me? Well we'll just see about that, shall we?" I don't think he would be able to let it lie in a pile of gold, the Ring would keep on challenging him, and Smaug would fall under its controll too.
Suppose Smaug went into invisible mode when he would wear the ring he wasn't easy to take down. Unless offcourse you shoot a massive amount of arrows into the air where you think he might be flying.
But when Smaug was lying in his mansion with the ring somewhere on the pile of gold under his belly there would be no chance that Sauron could get the ring back. Unless offcourse he would send a huge, and I mean really huge army up to the home of Smaug and try to kill him. If that army wasn't toasted, and would have been able to kill Smaug (tickle him untill he rolls over laughing -mind the flames then- and then stab his vunerable spot), then that would be the only chance for Sauron to ever see his ring again.

But I agree, the whole story would be quite different. Heck yeah, the whole story could then be written from Saurons point of view when he tries to get back his ring. Could be an interesting point from wich to tell the story.
Two points in this hypothetical discusssion: 1) Sauron might have hired Moria's Balrog to lead the attack on Erabor. This would negate Smaug's flames. So Angry Smilie 2) Many dragons exuded fear as part of their weaponry. Though I not sure if this attribute applied to Smaug; if it did then being invisible might partially negate the effect, for part of the fear is generated by the horrible vissage if dragonkind. Like they are big and ugly and strange and mean looking; they are the "other". Super Scared Smilie
Sauron himself is a fire spirit I belive?
People could hear Smaug before they saw him anyway, and the heath would give him away too. I am sure Smaugh enjoys the fear and panic he causes, being invicible might be fun a couple of times, but I don't think that would be something Smaug would want to use much.

He was the top of the food chain and had a nice protection of his soft belly. Why hide?
if i was sauron and smaug had my ring i would sent a balrog after him 'cause they are imune to fire. as for bringing him down on earth i'd put a pile of gold on the groung and the greedy stupid idiot would come to fetch it. Else i could always rent beowulf... Very Big Grin Smilie
Elf With a Big Grin Smilie Sorry, but both Beowulf and the Balrog were inaccessible to Sauron.
i know grondy i was just kidding Orc Grinning Smilie
I know. Elk Grinning Smilie
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Sorry, but both Beowulf and the Balrog were inaccessible to Sauron.

I don't know whether the Balrog -Durin's Bane- that is, was inaccessible to Sauron.

I take it that Sauron considered the Balrog in a similar fashion as he considered Shelob. Whilst he called Shelob 'his cat', he might have called the Balrog 'his dog'. After all, he did not fill Khazad-Dm with his minions for nothing. He must've known that the Balrog would take control of these minions, and together would prevent anyone from passing through Khazad-Dm - and most importantly, they would prevent any overly ambitious Dwarves from re-establishing a realm there, as Balin experienced.

One could also make a stand for the Watcher in the Water. Whilst it is unlikely that this creature was one of Sauron's minions, it is not unlikely that the Balrog chased it from its underground (aquatic) lair to the loch in front of Moria's Gates, so that nobody would ever manage to get in from there, provided they'd be able to solve the 'riddle'.

At any rate, the Free Peoples of Middle-earth were extremely lucky that the Balrog was not a direct minion of Sauron's. If the Balrog had been commissioned by Sauron to retrieve the Ring for him, or if the Balrog had known about the One Ring and decided to take it up for his (or her) own, who would have been able to stop it? I take it that in this case, it would not have concentrated on Gandalf, but it would have used his fiery whip on Mr Baggins instead.
Good post vir funny as well as sensible. but there's something i wander. why didn't the balrog leave moria when the shadow af sauron started to grow again? surely it would have been less dangerous for it? ah and something else, can balrogs fly? imean theyre descrobed as having wing

Visit a Balro(n)g thread for this : Why do Balrongs have wings?

Btw, could you please use proper punctuation in your posts? Thank you.
The Balrog was happily snoozing in the lower reaches of Moria and wanted this state of affairs to continue. It didn't ask for people to wake it up with all those hammerings on hard-rock Mithril, or with the great booming echos caused by silly stones dropping down its deep wells. It just wanted to be left alone in its exile, but once it's dander was aroused, well, there would be hell top pay.

Sauron may have know of the Balrog habitation there, and he may have made use of its presence as a guard dog, but i doubt if he was man enough to command Smaug, the Balrog, or the Watcher. They were all too independent to be bothered with the likes of him without a direct visit from him to get their attention. Had he sent emissaries, they would have been killed just for the audacity of bothering them.

Of course this only my humble opinion, I don't know if the Professor's would have differed.
I probably am quite wrong, but the way in which Tolkien described Smaug made me think that he was just a big bully that liked to wreak havoc, keep everyone afraid of him for pride's sake and heap up his collection of pretty jewels(it grossed me out that from laying on them so long some h ad cut into his belly.argh).
So I don't think he had the mentality although a cunning creature, to bother with taking over Middle earth in a political manner and having slaves and all that except perhaps to fatten th em up for future lunches. It just doesn't seem to have been anything to interest him, almost like an evil mindset of Tom.It wasn't his t hing.
As for the belly thing, he had a diamond armour leelee....
a diamond armour, oh, I don't remember that. that is fascinating. I always got this scared thrill of a feeling in the pit of my stomach whenever h e woke up and stared at Bilbo with those ancient cunning eyes.
I hated his evil carnage and I was rather surprised the way he died. It seemed so anti climatic to me since I was more interested in his relationship with Bilbo.
No I still don't think he was interested in politics much, just destruction for destruction's sake.
nah, he was very much into politics, choosing the best maidens and carrying them off to...eat...and not leaving any for me Shaking Head Smilie.

Thorin: Elf Confused Smilie I thought you didn't like the taste of chicken. Elf With a Big Grin Smilie
I like only spicy chicks. Elf With a Big Grin Smilie
He would more than likely had his own politics, as he would say "I'm King of the Mountain and the treasury is strictly off limits to anyone except my own royal self, plus, anyone who even bothers to come before me without permission shall get a royal roating!!!" Perfect for a self serving dragon me thinks Orc Smiling Smilie
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it is not unlikely that the Balrog chased it from its underground (aquatic) lair to the loch in front of Moria's Gates,


That makes no sense whatsoever. The Watcher was an aquatic creature, far more capable of chasing the Balrog away from it's lake, than the Balrog was capable of chasing it from it's lake. I think that with the Shadow growing, foul creatures were stirring once again, and coming out of their hiding. Also, I think it is more likely that the orcs had something to do with the Watcher, and not the Balrog. I mean, the river that once flowed past that gate was dammed, now it would make no sense for the dwarves to dam it, and so it must have been the orcs. Now, with the river dammed, it flooded into a lake, and if there were any underground passages that far down, flooding the river coulod have flooded those passages, thus opening a new way for the Watcher. Or, it could be that those underground lakes, were in some way connected with the river, you know, somehow the water was pushed up crevices or tunnels out to where the river appears. Now, as to why the Watcher didn't come out before the flooding, it could be that the river just wasn't big enough for it. And then there were dwarves there for a long time, when Moria was called Khazad-dum, and they probably would have killed one that did make it out.
Now something that I have been thinking, in the Sil, after Sauron is defeated at the Tower of Wolves, before Luthien frees Beren, it says that Sauron took the form of a vampire, and flew off. No where else does Tolkien mention vampires, and yet, if Sauron took the form of one, surely Morgoth must have had vampires in his armies. Question Smilie Elf Confused Smilie
As for the Watcher, it is not impossible. The Balrog is a Maia hence he could change forms too; note that he changed himself in a serpentlike, slimey creature after having plummeted down the bridge of Khazad-Dm; hence it is not impossible that he once changed into an Architeuthis for instance to chase away the Watcher.

Besides, we cannot totally rule out that the Watcher is not a Maia himself. He (or she) could've been a spider of Mirkwood originally, who left the woods centuries before the War of the Ring looking for a new challenge.

See also Watcher in the Water.

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No where else does Tolkien mention vampires, and yet, if Sauron took the form of one, surely Morgoth must have had vampires in his armies.

Thuringwethil was a vampire. Moreover, I think -besides werewolves- there were vampires in Taur-nu-Fuin hunting for Beren & his fellows.

I do not know whether Morgoth used them in his armies; they seemed to be used by Sauron as hunters and messengers only.
That was very helpful, thank you.
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The Balrog is a Maia hence he could change forms too; note that he changed himself in a serpentlike, slimey creature after having plummeted down the bridge of Khazad-Dm;


If you mean the 'thing of slime' quote I do not think it means the Balrog changed shape necessarily, but rather it fell into water, became slimy after its fire was quenched, and later its flame came back.

As far as Maiar changing form in general, this Balrog had been around for thousands of years. It appears that Melkor and Sauron both lost this ability, and perhaps this demon may have as well.
In the chapter "White Rider" in The two towers Gandalf mentions to Aragorn & Co that the Balrog had changed into a slithy being that took delight in strangling him.

That quote should be drifting around in another thread. I remember posting it a year ago or so.
I think we are referring to the same quote ('thing of slime' description). It fell into the water, became slimy and was stronger than a strangling snake. That doesn't necessarily mean it changed shape however.

In Osanwe-kenta it is noted that a 'self-arraying' may tend to approach the state of incarnation especially with the Maiar, and 'It is said that the longer and the more the same hroa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it.'

Melkor became at last bound to a bodily form because of the use that he made of this in his purpose to become Lord of the Incarnate, 'and of the great evils that he did in the visible body.' It is explained that some of his greatest servants became wedded to the forms of their evil deeds.

Balrogs were great servants of Melkor and likely did great evils in the body visible. Also the Moria Balrog in particular had arguably lived in its body a very long time before meeting Gandalf.

I think there is a good case for it being unable to change shape at this point (except for its cloak of Unlight of course), but in any event we appear to have different interpretations of the same text.
It appears, from reading many 'Do balrogs have wings?' and 'How big is a Balrog?'' discussions that a Balrog can change the shape of the smoke and fire that encases his body, making him appear larger and/or more threatening depending on his intent. The body itself is scarcely visible and its size seems to be anywhere from 8 feet, up to a more generally accepted 15-16 feet.
It is rarely thought, or mentioned in the text for that matter, that a Balrog could change his shape.

They took that shape when they descended, or shortly after, as did Ungoliant, but there isn't much mention of them taking different shapes after.
Yes, Balrogs in the third age are no longer able to take on another form; I doubt if they were ever true shape-shifters, but could only take on a new form when they first entered this dimension. Dragons, including Smaug (about whom this topic is supposed to center) suffered under the same limitation: once they were here, that was their form.



I cannot even bear to think of Smaug wielding that ring.
And I know this doesn't belong here, but I am too tired to find any related thread:]
Why when Bilbo used his ring, did not the Dread Dark Lord Sauron become aware of it and focus on it like he did with Frodo. Gandalf told him specifically not to put it on because then Sauron would be able to locate the ring and the bearer. I just don't understand it.
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Why when Bilbo used his ring, did not the Dread Dark Lord Sauron become aware of it and focus on it like he did with Frodo. Gandalf told him specifically not to put it on because then Sauron would be able to locate the ring and the bearer. I just don't understand it.


He was then still too weak I believe Smile Smilie
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He was then still too weak I believe Smile Smilie

As he (Sauron) was during the preceding four hundred or so years that Gollum used it before it was lost in the Goblin/Orc tunnels under the Misty Mountains. Sauron's vaporous form had yet to fully condense again into his final unfair body with its Black Hand, and more importantly, with its Great Eye, with which he could do his scrying for whomever was Doing Dastardly Deeds, and thus might be in possession of the Ring.

Also, The Hobbit was written prior to LotR and as such, some in that earlier book was apocryphal and required revision, such as Bilbo's story to the Dwarves as to how he even obtained the Ring in the first place.
Thankyou.
I guess it just seemed to me to unreal because, really the time frame between Bilbo's having use of the ring and Frodo's is not very long, right. I mean in the realm of time to which Sauron was living, it would seem to me to be but a blink of the eye. So I could not understand that at all.

Yes, I realize that it was written before. It seems that from that to the Fellowship of the Ring, the tone went from childlike, which the Hobbit was of course, to so dark and hard to bear in a way. So there was a tiny lack of continuity, but who cares, it was all thrilling. I was just wondering and now I know. Again, thankyou.
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