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Not a game but a way of sparking discussion.

Someone suggests a topic and others post quotes from LotR related to the topic with comments for discussion where possible. I have posted some quotes to support the first topic but please feel free to post your own choice of quotes. There is no time limit as such so it isn't a race but when any discussion that hopefully springs from the quotes starts to flag then someone else can post another topic. If this works then we can apply it to other forums like the Simarillion or Hobbit etc.

OK the first topic is courage


Quote:
But Aragorn saw that he was pierced with many black-feathered arrows; his sword was still in his hand, but it was broken near the hilts; his horn cloven in two was at his side. Many Orcs lay slain, piled all about him and at his feet.


The first of Boromir's final two acts of courage. He had fought the orcs to the death, although his sword was broken and he was mortally wounded he had not deserted the hobbits.

Quote:
Boromor opened his eyes and strove to speak, At last slow words came. 'I tried to take the Ring from Frodo', he said, 'I am sorry. I have paid.
'

Boromir's final act of courage - he didn't have to admit what he had done but he was, I believe, a good man at heart and strong in spirit and he chose to tell Aragorn and to admit his wrongdoing. It takes courage to admit such a failing.

That is a very good idea Vee.
And considering the question of courage, and especially your first quote, it seems that true courage can only be achieved through death. Boromir dies a glorious death, and if he had not died, he may have fallen deeper into temptation (for the Ring) and then the herioc traits of his character would have been blotted out by his greed. As it was, it was his noble death defending the hobbits that redeemed him and showed what courage he really had when he stood his ground and defended them. The same is true for Frodo, though he does not literally die, the Quest takes a death-like toll on him. Like Boromir, it is his willingness to make this sacrifice that makes him truly brave. Similar parellels can be drawn with the culture of the Rohirrim and Theoden, as well as with the Ents. Their courage seemed to be inspired and ultimately rewarded with death. With Tolkien's philological career in mind, it is interesting to note that the connotation of courage and death is a highly Anglo-Saxon theme.




Good point, not sure I have ever looked at it in that way before but yes, the fact that Boromir did eventually fight to the death for the hobbits redeemed him but I had thought if he had lived then maybe, having experienced the pull of the ring, he would be able to resist it in future. He had shown signs of regret since scaring Frodo. But..... maybe surviving wasn't good enough; to show absolute redemption he had to die..... and dying prevented the possibility of him going astray again if the ring's power proved too great so he gets to remain a hero, albeit slightly tarnished.

Is he tarnished? Although he did try to take the ring for whatever reason, does this tarnish him? Would he have fought to the death if he had still been an unsullied good guy? Up until then he had not experienced the full power of the ring but once he had and knew that he was vulnerable he was prepared to fight and die to save the hobbits because he could then see that the world of Men was at risk from the ring while there were still Men around to fall prey to it.



Quote:
The same is true for Frodo, though he does not literally die, the Quest takes a death-like toll on him. Like Boromir, it is his willingness to make this sacrifice that makes him truly brave.


This is interesting...... both Frodo and Boromir are willing to make the final sacrifice - Boromir in the heat of battle and Frodo, desperate and exhausted with little hope left. Both are heroes but how different they are.

Boromir, trained in fighting, strong, ambitious etc and he knows about Mordor and Orcs and all the other nasties and convinced that Gondor is the world's only hope.

Frodo, inexperienced hobbit who has never journeyed this far before. No fighting skills as such, no ambition other than to finish his quest and constantly battling with all these new evils. The Shire was a safe haven and more or less all he knew (apart from Bilbo's stories) yet he took on the task for the whole world.

Two different characters from different directions end up sharing the same quality, the willingness to sacrifice one's life for others.

Quote:
Good point, not sure I have ever looked at it in that way before but yes, the fact that Boromir did eventually fight to the death for the hobbits redeemed him but I had thought if he had lived then maybe, having experienced the pull of the ring, he would be able to resist it in future.


Perhaps I am putting too much of the movie into my thoughts, but the way I read it Boromir was corrupted by the Ring from his first encounter with it. Not because he wanted the power for himself, but because the pressure his father was putting on him and the impending war and all. However, I don't believe that Boromir could have resisted the pull of the Ring had he and Frodo patched things up and the Fellowship continued intact. The Ring just was overwhelming Boromir's good sense and courage. What I find interesting is how the Ring did not seem to affect either Faramir or Aragorn. It seemed like it had very minimal pull on those two. Perhaps because they were more "educated" than Boromir in things other than warfare?

I don't believe that Boromir should be thought of as "tarnished", just made the wrong choices. He was a good person underneath and as can be seen in the book that he valiantly traded his life to save two hobbits and would have done so for anyone in the Fellowship had the oppurtunity presented itself. He just had a weakness for the Ring and I believe Tolkien used that weakness to show us that Boromir is human and that everything in warfare is not black and white. I believe that during Tolkien's own service during WWI he probably saw a few Boromir's, men of valiant courage and who were good people but were overcome with a weakness that made what they did unthinkable. Sort of like WWII where you had, previous to the war, average Germans who would carry out some of the most horrific crimes during the war, although I am not saying Boromir's attacking Frodo for the Ring is on par with Nazi death camps, but the similarities are there.
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Is he tarnished? Although he did try to take the ring for whatever reason, does this tarnish him? Would he have fought to the death if he had still been an unsullied good guy?


You raise some really good questions Vee, especially your last one, that I had never considered before.
I think that Boromir is indeed changed and not for the better, but I don't know if 'tarnished' is the right word. Surely he made some wrong choices, and no matter how good his intentions were, he had to be punished accordingly for them. So I think that it is fair to say he is quite corrupted, but also I think Helmthh's point about Tolkien using Boromir to show how there are no black-and-whites in war should also be taken. One can be corrupted, but one can also be heartwrenchingly brave and kind at the same time.
Now would he have been so brave if he had not been tempted by the Ring etc is another question and a very good one. I wonder, is it not because of his previous wrong actions that we admire his bravery? If for instance Aragorn, who seems to be a classic unsullied good guy, came to the rescue of the hobbits (as he indeed does in many instances) we would not think so much of it. It is when Boromir, who we have seen twisted with temptation, becomes their valiant saviour that we cheer and say, "Here is a brave guy."
I think that Boromir is the perfect example of a tormented soul. He wanted to do what was right for his people and he also wanted to please his father. I think that he knew that if he got The Ring it would mean the eventual destruction of Minas Tirith and that is why he IMO resisted the urge (or calling) of The Ring. I am torn as to what I think of Boromir's character on the whole I think that he does possess an large amount of courage but I think that he also has a little bit of should we call it envy?? He knows who Aragorn is and what he (Aragorn) is destined to become and I think that part of his reasoning for trying to take The Ring from Frodo is his desire to 1) Help his people 2)Please the lunatic Denathor and 3)Be a King which he knew that he would never be. But in the end he fights bravely to try to save Merry and Pippin (who I happen to think he liked) and in doing so I think he redeemed himself because he knew that trying to take The Ring was wrong and he knew if he continued with the Fellowship that his weakness for The Ring would overcome him again so in a way I think that he knew that he would die and he did it anyway. To me aside from Sam that is one of several selfless acts of Courage and Bravery in the series.

Ashley276
Quote:
If for instance Aragorn, who seems to be a classic unsullied good guy, came to the rescue of the hobbits (as he indeed does in many instances) we would not think so much of it. It is when Boromir, who we have seen twisted with temptation, becomes their valiant saviour that we cheer and say, "Here is a brave guy."


Dang good point! His bravery, in our eyes, is greater because of that. Aragorn was just as brave, but maybe a little wiser, and we see him as that all the way through with maybe one or two moments of doubt. Because of the variations in Boromir's character we are able to focus on that one act of true bravery and love him for it.
While I do not disagree in any way that Boromir's sacrifice to save the Hobbits was brave, I do not see it as Boromir's conscious decision to seek solace for his former deeds. He did not think, "I have done something really bad, now I must sacrifice my life as penance". That is just a circumstance, a chain of events which happened. He did not go out of his way to die. He happened to be there when the Uruks were attacking Merry and Pippin, and he made the decision to defend them against overwhelming odds. That in itself was brave, for he must have known he was unlikely to come out of it alive, but it was the same decision every member of the party would have made had they been in the same place.

What it did allow us to see was that, having been portrayed as someone corrupted by the ring, Boromir was still essentially a good man, with all the characteristics associated with being good. He was brave enough to stand and fight, and he was brave enough to admit his faults to Aragorn. Had he, on the other hand, chosen to hide or flee, he would have been seen as a very weak, dispicable person, perhaps of Grima Wormtongue's ilk.

To me Boromir's role within the book was to show just how powerful and dangerous the Ring really was. Here was Gondor's very best warrior; a man willing to sacrifice his life defending his friends, but still unable to overcome its seduction. By showing us what it could do Boromir, Tolkien was visibly showing us what it could do to anyone else. This is a much more powerful message than having Gandalf or Galadriel just refuse it on the grounds it would make them evil. Here we really saw it at work.

Quote:
. He did not think, "I have done something really bad, now I must sacrifice my life as penance". That is just a circumstance, a chain of events which happened. He did not go out of his way to die.


I agree with that Val, and I didn't mean to imply (if I did) that I Boromir was thinking this was the way to redemption. It was an act of courage and bravery and in doing it he was redeemed. And yes, the others would have done the same but it was Boromir for the reasons you state. I agree.
Quote:
He did not think, "I have done something really bad, now I must sacrifice my life as penance".

Although Boromir did not consciously sacrifice his life as repentence for attempting to take the Ring from Frodo, he did see his death as punishment or payment for the deed.
'I tried to take the Ring from Frodo', he said. ' I am sorry. I have paid.'
Boromir displayed his honour and nobility by admitting this to Aragorn.
I don't think there was any doubt cast in Tolkien's work as far as Boromir's courage is concerned. He would have defended Merry and Pippin from the Orcs regardless of his encounter with Frodo and the Ring.
Absolutely.... But would he have admitted what he had done to Frodo if he had not been mortally wounded?
Had he survived the attack, yes I think he would. Frodo and Sam disappeared....... Boromir is basically a good guy.... and after the orc attack he would comprehend the dangers more. Yes, he would have confessed.
Maybe so, yet, although you say that Boromir was a good guy , the same could be said of Isildur, who had a chance to destroy the ring, but didn't. The battle preceding this incident, the meeting with Sauron, and the influence of Elrond, can be seen as much stronger persuasive factors to resist the power of the ring than those to which Boromir was subject, so I think Boromir was at the stage whereafter he would have done all that he could to escape and make the ring his own. From that point onwards, he would only become more and more corrupted by it.
If Boromir had remained in the ring's influence he may well have continued to try and get it but Frodo left him and without the ring's influence he came to his senses.

Quote:
''What have I said?' he cried. 'What have I done? Frodo, Frodo!' he called. 'Come back! A madness took me, but it has passed. Come back!'


Maybe if he got close to the ring again he would feel it's influence or maybe, having realised what it had done to him, he would be better prepared. I am not sure about Isildur, but if I remember correctly, he kept the ring once he had taken it so he was bound to be affected by it. Isildur was a great and good man, he rescued the White Tree from Numenor and fought against Sauron but he never got the chance to come to his senses over the ring because he had it with him all the time.

I think Boromir would have had a lot of trouble if he came near the ring again. I doubt he would have been able to resist it - the ring's call is strong. Isildur kept it, against wise counsel, as a momento (weregift?) of his father's death. Boromir wanted to 'borrow' it to help his people. Nothing wrong with that, one might think, but as Gandalf and Galadriel said even if you start off with good intentions the ring will turn them to evil.

I think we need a thread somewhere about Isildur.
We can continue the Boromir discussion but does anyone have any more quotes about Courage from LotR?
I'm not sure whether it is courage or love which lends Sam his strength to fight Shelob. Maybe a bit of both.

Quote:
Sam did not wait to wonder what was to be done, or whether he was brave, or loyal, or filled with rage. He sprang forward with a yell, and siezed his master's sword in his left hand. Then he charged. No onslaught more fierce was ever seen in the savage world of beasts, where some desperate small creature armed with little teeth, alone, will spring upon a tower of horn and hide that stands above its fallen mate.


I think it took a lot of courage for Gimli to overcome his fears when it came to the Paths of the Dead too.
Quote:
And there stood Gimli the Dwarf all alone. His knees shook, and he was wroth with himself. "Here is a thing unheard of!" he said. "An elf will go underground and a Dwarf dare not!" With that he plunged in. But it seemed to him that he dragged his feet like lead over the threshold; and at once a blindness came upon him, even upon Gimli Gloin's son who had walked unafraid in many deep places of the world.


To me this shows Gimli to be truely couragous. Although the others had gone in before him, it is Gimli who is overcome the most by his fears. To be able to put aside those fears and follow the others whatever really shows this quality.
And Sam's decision to take the Ring and go on was another act of courage. There is much too much of his self conversation leading to his choice, but this paragraph from 'The Choices of Master Samewise' in TTT sums it up nicely:
Quote:
'Let me see now: if we're found here, or Mr. Frodo's found, and that Thing's on him, well, the Enemy will get it. And that's the end of all of us, of Lorien, and Rivendell, and the Shire and all. And there's no time to lose, ot it'll be the end anyway. The war's begun, and more than likely things are all going the Enemy's way already. No chance to go back with It and get advice or permission. No, it's sit here till they come and kill me over master's body, and gets It; or take It and go.'

He drew a deep breath. 'Then take It, it is!'
Sam's love for Frodo may have spurred him on but it still took courage both to travel all that way with Frodo and to take on the burden. Both at the Council of Elrond and the Breaking of the Fellowship Sam showed courage in following Frodo. And Frodo himself? Was that courage he showed at the Council of Elrond when he offered to take the ring?

Quote:
An overwhelming longing to rest and remain at peace by Bilbo's side in Rivendell filled all his heart. At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered ot hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice.

'I will take the Ring,' he said, 'though I do not know the way.'


Gandalf responds :

Quote:
But if you take it freely, I will say that your choice is right; and though all the mighty elf-friends of old, Hador, and Hurin, and Turin, and Beren himself were assembled together, your seat should be among them.'


From TFotR, The Council of Elrond.

Frodo seemingly makes the decision almost unconsciously yet it still shows courage. He knew there would be dangers but he had no idea what sort and how dangerous and how evil yet he offered anyway. Courage in the face of the unknown.

In the FotR, A Conspiracy Unmasked Merry says....

Quote:
We know most of what Gandalf has told you. We know a good deal about the Ring. We are horribly agraid - but we are coming with you; or following you like hounds.'


Again, the hobbits had some sense of danger but they had no idea of the scale of that danger. Yet they still went. Was it just an adventure for them or was there courage as well?

Again at the Council of Elrond Gandalf says about Merry and Pippin

Quote:
It is true that if these Hobbits understood the danger, they would not dare to go. But they would still wish to go, or wish that they dared, and be shamed and unhappy.


Is it courage or ignorance?
More ignorance, i'd say, especially from Pippin and Merry. Like Gandalf said, if they'd really know the dangers in front of them, they'd wet their pants and return home, with their tails between their legs.

True courage is knowing the dangers in front of you, and yet go into it, like Frodo did. Sam too, had he known the dangers yet to come, would've gone anyway, to protect his master. That's great courage, because of his loyalty.
I agree it was more ignorance in the beginning. But what about the Siege of Gondor and The Battle of the Pelennor Fields? Also the Scouring of the Shire? Did Merry and Pippin show courage then?

I think they found their courage as they progressed.

Someone thought them courageous enough to deserve burial in Rath Dinen among the great of Gondor.
Yes, Merry and Pippin also displayed courage: Merry, when he faced the rear of the Nazgul Lord's knee and Pippin when he faced down Denethor and commandeered Gandalf, towards the saving of Faramir, and then when he took on the Troll-Chief at the Battle of the Black Gate. By the time they returned to the Shire and the Battle of Bywater, they were hearty veterans of the War of the Rings and knew what was expected of them and that they were capable of fulfilling those expectations.
The next topic for discussion is HOPE. Quotes and comments please.
Quote:
"Is there any hope Gandalf, for Frodo and Sam?"
"There never was much hope, just a fools hope."


Quote:
The fellowship stands on the edge of a knife, stray but a little and it will fail.... yet hope remains."
Is that first hope quote above actually by Tolkien, or was PJ putting words in Gandalf's mouth?

Sam's talking to himself:
Quote:
... 'The Cracks of Doom,' he muttered, the old name rising to his mind. 'Well, if Master knows how to find them, I don't.'

'There you are!' came the answer. 'It's all quite useless.' He said to himself. ' You are the fool, going on hoping and toiling. You could have lain down and gone to sleep together days ago, if you hadn't been so dogged. But you'll die just the same, or worse. You might just as well lie down now and give it up. You'll never get to the top anyway.'

'I'll get there, if I leave everything but my bones behind,' said Sam. 'And I'll carry Mr. Frodo up myself, if it breaks my back and heart. So stop arguing!'
Now is this hope or just hopelessness being overcome by perserverence?

The best hope quote would be Sam's "And yet we might, Mr. Frodo, and yet we might." I tried to find this, but have already spent too much time on this post. Someone else can probably find Tolkien's actual wording, for I did it from memory, and it may have been muddled by PJ's movie or the BBC's radio production.
Well this following passage does not specifically mention Hope, and come to think of it, it doesn't come LotR either, but what the heck, it always fills me with hope when I read it.
From The Silmarillion - Of the Fifth Battle

Quote:
But now a cry went up, passing up the wind from the south from vale to vale, and Elves and men lifted their voices in wonder and joy. For unsummoned and unlooked for Turgon had opened the leaguer of Gondolin, and was come with an army ten thousand strong, with bright mail and long swords and spears like a forest. Then when Fingon heard afar the great trumpet of Turgon his brother, the shadow passed and his heart was uplifted, and he shouted aloud: "Utilie'n aure! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatari, utulie'n aure! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered crying: "Auta i lome! The night is passing!"


This obviously is not a film section, but I felt a very similar emotion when the Elves turned up unexpectedly at the Battle of Helm's Deep in the film. I sometimes wonder if PJ got his inspiration for that idea from reading the above quotation? That is not something to be discussed here though.
I find it a very interesting point you bring up Grondy about hope vs. perserverance. This is just my interpretation but I think that to hope is to believe that the task at hand will come through alright, that the present action is not worthless even if it does indeed fail. To perservere is to act on this belief. I find that the two are intertwining threads in LotR, intertwining, but not the same. In order to perservere, one needs hope to be put to the test. Therefore, many characters have hope but not all perservere. For example, the hobbits have hope, because they trust that higher powers will keep them safe. (Though they do not really know, or care to know, what these higher powers are) However, aside from Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin, they are never put in a position where they have to test their belief, so they do not perservere.
However, I think all the members of the Fellowship, with the exception of Boromir and Frodo, perservere and have hope. I don't think Boromir had any hope in the Quest to begin with, or even any real hope that he would get the Ring for himself. He had many desires (and not all bad ones) certainly, but I don't think he had any real faith in Frodo's abilities or the Fellowship's abilities in protecting him. Similarily, I don't think Frodo started out with any hope either. He was brave certainly, but not once in the book do I see him as being really hopeful about the whole thing. And I do not think he was driven on by hope or by any emotions resulting from hope, I think he was driven on by his weariness and his need (not wholly realized) to rid himself of the Ring.

(sorry for the length and ill-written manner of this post, I am rather tired...)
I know I'm new here, but the topic of hope in this forum really fascinates me, and I'm glad to have a chance to add something.
To be honest, the first time I read LOTR, I did it in spare time, and more for recreation. However I was drawn deeply into it and found myself moved to tears often by Tolkien's magnificent work. But the second time I read it, I had fallen very ill, and the passages of hope in utter darkness began to take on new meaning to me. Especially the quote...I wish it weren't so late, I'd find it and type it up properly...However, I'm sure you know the part when Sam and Frodo are journying through the blackened and barren lands of Mordor. At night, as Frodo sleeps, Sam sees the evil clouds part in the skies to reveil the star. Even if it is just for a short time, it is by far, perhaps the most wonderful, and hope enstilling thing he could have seen at that moment.
I still find when I have a bad day, because I'm still sick, I like to turn to passages like that one and read it. Because it's true, "The shadow is only a passing thing."
I hope I've not rambled on too long...I just wanted to say that Smile Smilie Thanks all.
There is a thread in this forum called Did Frodo Know which also discusses hope but there is hope all the way through LotR.

This is the quote Areanel was talking about which I also quoted in the Frodo thread.

Quote:
There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing; there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach
From RotK

Quote:
However I was drawn deeply into it and found myself moved to tears often by Tolkien's magnificent work.


Me and you both Areanel!

Quote:
"Is there any hope Gandalf, for Frodo and Sam?"
"There never was much hope, just a fools hope."

Is that first hope quote above actually by Tolkien, or was PJ putting words in Gandalf's mouth
?

Yes, it was Tolkien and comes from The Siege of Gondor in RotK. Gandalf says it to Pippin and goes on to say...

Quote:
Just now, Pippin, my heart almost failed me, hearing that name. (Cirith Ungol) And yet in truth I believe that the news that Faramir brings has some hope in it. For it seems clear that our Enemy has opened his war at last and made the first move while Frodo was still free. So now for many days he will have his eye turned this way and that, away from his own land.


Val, great quote from the Silmarillion. And I agree about PJ's inspiration - he used it in many places so maybe we should start a thread for that?
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"We may yet Mr. Frodo we may"

I think that the above quote is in FoTR and that is only the beginning of all the hope that Sam shows in all three books.
I agree that there are many times in all three books when JRRT brings you to tears. I know that there were many times that I had to step away from RoTK becuase it was so heart wrenching in places. Since I have loaned my set out to my brother I cannot find the quote directly but I think that it is in the Houses of the Healing chapter when Eowyn finally realizes that she does love Faramir and that he loves her the way that she genuinely desires and deserves to be loved and she says that she will no longer be the Sheildmaiden of Rohan but she will be a healer. I think that is yet another example of hope. All the times when Frodo and Sam are travelling through Mordor it looks dire and Sam manages to find water for them and even shelter so that they can rest or hide themselves from Orcs there is hope all through those chapters. Through out all three books there is hopeand I think that was one of the most enduring things in all the books.
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His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed. for morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them. And then all the host of Rohan burst into song and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City.


From The Ride of The Rohirrim, RotK

It is often the passages that convey hope that make me cry, more often I think than those passages of despair and horror.
OK - next topic is fellowship.

Quotes and discussions please!




Borimir kept his promise to the fellowship.

Sam and frodo sam's undying loyalty even to the parting to the Grey Havens.
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Borimir kept his promise to the fellowship.


Did he? He redeemed himself by trying to protect the Hobbits but I am not sure about keeping promises. Do you have a quote to support this?

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Sam and frodo sam's undying loyalty even to the parting to the Grey Havens.


Most definitely!

Quote:
I can't carry it for you, but I can carry you and it as well.

Quote:
I am glad you are here with me. Here at the end of all things, Sam.


RotK - Mount Doom

There are many, many quotes for Sam and Frodo and their fellowship. But theirs is not the only fellowship in the story, nor is the fellowship of the Ring.

Quote:
Fellowship: The state of being a fellow or partner. intercourse, communion, an association

Chambers Dictionary

What other fellowships were there in the books? Wormtongue and Sauron? Merry and Pippin? Was Gollum part of a fellowship with Sam and Frodo? I think so.




First I just want to say that this was a great idea.

I have not seen anyone mention the Fellowship between Gandalf and Frodo even if they were seperated for most of Frodo's journey there was a bond between them that did not exist between any of the other members of the Fellowship or outside of it.
Quote:
"And now the decision lies with you.But I will always help you."He laid his hand on Frodo's shoulder. "I will help you bear this burden as long as it is yours to bear".


FoTR The Shadow of The Past

IMO Gandalf really has a special place for Hobbits but especially Frodo and Pippin I think. I mean look how they all cried in RoTK when Gandalf went into the Grey Havens I mean they were heartbroken that Frodo was leaving but they were also heartbroken that Gandalf was leaving he was sort of like a parent to them and I think that if Wizards like Gandalf had families then he would have loved those Hobbits no less than a father loves his children.

I also think that there is a real bond of Fellowship with Gandalf and Aragorn. He knew that Aragorn had big things to do and that the Journey to take the Ring to Mordor would not lead Aragorn to Mordor but to Gondor and the Throne. I also think that Gandalf did everything that he could to make sure that Aragorn became the King.

I also think that there is a great bond between Aragorn and Eomer. Both of these men are strong, brave and loyal to the ones that they love and they really do make great team and I was glad to see them together really almost through all of RoTK. I really think that Eomer loved Aragorn as a brother and I think that the feeling was returned by Aragorn.

I wish that I had my books with me because I am really thinking that there are some great quotes that will support everything that I have just said but I would rather not misquote if you all know what I mean.

Ashley276
Quote:
"Yet twice blessed is help unlooked for, and never was a meeting of friends more joyful."


Eomer to Aragorn - RotK

Also Merry and Theoden :

Quote:
But Merry stood at the foot of the green mound, and he wept and when the song was ended he arose and cried:
"Theoden King, Theoden King! Farewell! As a father you were to me, for a little while. Farewell!"


RotK - Many Partings



Next topic is betrayal.

Who's betrayal was the nastiest?
I thought that as betryals go Sauruman's was the worst. He was so deep into the all the councils of the side that was fighting Sauran that he knew everything and he wanted the One Ring for himself because he wanted to be stronger than Sauran. I think that what he did was far worse than any betryal that happened before or after. He tried at every turn to destroy the race of men and it was a horrible thing because I was under the impression that wizards were supposed to help fight evil not help evil itself. I mean they all knew that Sauron was evil but they did not expect betrayal from one of their own and I think that is the worst kind of betrayal IMO.

Ashley276
This is really about Lord of the Rings rather than the Silmarillion but it is an interesting observation and there are many references to betrayal in the Sil. I am happy for it to be discussed here.

When I have a bit more time I will look into it more....... I have my daughter here at the moment.
Thanks Vee, I didn't realize that! I am going to move that last post somewhere else.
Ooooh! Where did it go?

Perhaps you could start a similar discussion in the Silmarillion Forum.

As I said, I am happy for it to be discussed here as part of the Betrayal theme. Feel free to put it back.

Quote:
'Nay, Eomer, you do not fully understand the mind of Master Wormtongue,' said Gandalf, turning his piercing glance upon him. 'He is bold and cunning. Even now he plays a game with peril and wins a throw. Hours of my precious time he has wasted already. Down, snake!' he said suddenly in a terrible voice. 'Down on your belly! How long is it since Saruman bought you? What was the promised price? When all the men are dead, you were to pick your share of the treasure, and take the woman you desire? ...
...
'Eowyn is safe now,' he said, 'But you, Wormtongue, you have done what you could for your true master. Some reward you have earned at least. Yet Saruman is apt to overlook his bargains. I should advice you to go quickly and remind him, lest he forget your faithful service.'
...
'... See Theoden, here is a snake! With safety you cannot take it with you, nor can you leave it behind. To slay it would be just. But it was not always as it now is. Once it was a man, and did you service in its fashion. Give him a horse and let him go at once, wherever he chooses. By his choice you shall judge him.'
And so Theoden did and Wormtongue rode to his master at Orthanc; however, unlike the trustworthy politician he didn't stay bought, at the end he also turned on Sarumen this was the anti-climax to the War of the Ring.

I think Grima Wormtongue's betrayal is about as bad as you can get. He poisoned the minds of both Theoden and Eowyn. Instilling a sense of hopelessness in each, and taking the reigns of power 'in the name of the King' he tried to ensure Theodred and Eomer were out of the way when Saruman finally made his big push against the Rohirrim.
And finally -

Quote:
...suddenly Wormtongue rose up, drawing a hidden knife, and then with a snarl like a dog he sprang on Saruman's back, jerked his head back, cut his throat, and with a yell ran off down the lane.
The Scouring of the Shire - ROTK

Wormtongue's final betrayal.
THanks for posting that, Vee. Cuase now I can prove to my friend that he sliced Saruman's throat, not stabbed him in the back!!!! So there!!!!!!!!!!! (Well, he did stab him in the back, but not physically).
How about some quotes of Sruman's betrayal? I don't have nmy copy of TLOTR here. I'm at school, and it's lunchtime.
Just for you, Loni -

Quote:
"The Elder Days are gone. The Middle Days are passing. The Younger Days are beginning. The tme of the Elves is over, but our time is at hand: the world of Men, which we must rule. But we must have power, power to order all things as we will, for that good which only the Wise can see.

And listen, Gandalf, my old friend and helper!" he said, coming near and speaking now in a softer voice. "I said we, for we it may be, if you will join with me. A new Power is rising. Against it the old allies and policies will not avail us at all. There is no hope left in Elves or dying Numenor. This then is one choice before you, before us. We may join with that Power. It would be wise, Gandalf. There is hope that way. Its victory is at hand; and there will be rich reward for those that aided it. As the Power grows, its proved friends will also grow; and the Wise, such as you and I, may with patience come at last to direct its courses, to control it. We can bide our time, we can keep our thoughts in our hearts, deploring maybe evils done by the way, but approving the high and ultimate purpose: Knowledge, Rule, Order; all things that we have so far striven in vain to accomplish, hindered rather than helped by our weak or idle friends. There need not be, there would not be, any real change in our designs, only in our means."


The Council of Elrond - FotR
OK..... moving on........ how about the next topic for discussion and quotes is...

compassion
Strangely enough Gollum seems to win the compassion of quite a few people - the elves of Mirkwood who were his guardians, Gandalf, Frodo and also Sam. Did anyone else show Gollum compassion? Which quotes do you think showed this?

Who else received compassion and who gave it? Wormtongue perhaps? Denethor?

Find some quotes that show who gave and who received compassion. Do it... do it now.....

Quote:
(...)Which quotes do you think showed this? (...)Find some quotes that show who gave and who received compassion. Do it... do it now.....


Well that was an efficient way of excluding every single member who doesn't have an english copy of the books from the discussion! Way to go, Vee!! Orc With Thumbs Up Smilie

Luckily for me I've got an e-book. Wink Smilie

Quote:
It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace-all in a flash of thought which was quickly driven from his mind.


Samwise is an compassionate little guy, here he feels sorry for a man who would have killed him if he had gotten the chance. Shows Tolkiens compassion for the men he faught against in the war, that he knows they are/were people with thoughts and feelings like himself.
Quote:
Well that was an efficient way of excluding every single member who doesn't have an english copy of the books from the discussion! Way to go, Vee!!


So what are we supposed to do in a thread called Topic Quotes and Discussion? on an English speaking website?



Sometimes it isn't easy being a goddess.
Quote:
'Wormyongue!' called Frodo. 'You need not follow him. I know of no evil you have done to me. You can have rest and food here fo a while, until you are stronger and can go your own ways.'
Of course that was before Frodo learned from Saruman, that Grima had killed and possibly eaten "Pimple" (Frodo's cousin, Lotho Sackville-Baggins), but even after Grima killed Saruman, Frodo wouldn't have wanted Grima killed; he just couldn't get his tongue engaged quick enough to stop it.
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