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Thread: Power of the Rings of Power

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I think the rings had different powers, somehow related to their destined masters: the slowing of time for the Elves, the hoarding of jewels and gems for the Dwarves, power for Men, total domination for Sauron (or any other Dark Lord). I guess the Eldar were present in both worlds, material and spiritual, at any moment, so they could not be truly invisible in either one! Of course, they needed not be invisible; they were happy with the things as they were.

*retiring in a dark corner and waiting for Val, the master of all knowledge, to come up and clear this problem*

P.S.: This is odd, but I was writing for so long that Val actually said what really mattered, leaving me in a ackward position. Sorry if the topic was messed up! *bows and leaves*
True, th eelves are in both worlds, (like how Frodo saw Glorfindel when he was almost a wraith [I would get the quote, but I don't have my copy of TLOTR with me, because I'm at school at the moment]), but does that really mean that they coudln't be totally invisible in either? all the mortals are only in the material world, but they doesn't mean they cant be totally invisible in one, so I don't see why it can't be the same for hte Elves, even if they ARE completely different. i suppose this can be neither disproved or proven, so maybe it's just a mystery, and perhaps Tolkien didn't even think of it.......

But I do agree that the power of the rings of Power differ deending on the bearer (or wearer), depending on the wearer's intentions and race, and perhaps other factors as well.

Can Val help?
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True, the elves are in both worlds, (like how Frodo saw Glorfindel when he was almost a wraith [I would get the quote, but I don't have my copy of TLOTR with me, because I'm at school at the moment])
Here it is, from the last page of Book 1 of The Fellowship of the Ring just before Frodo falls from Asfaloth at the Ford of Bruinen:
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With his last failing senses Frodo heard cries, and it seemed to him that he saw, beyond the Riders that hesitated on the shore, a shining figure of white light; and behind it ran small shadowy forms waving flames, that flared red in the grey mist that was falling over the world.
And later about five pages into Book 2 of the same volume, when Frodo was talking to Gandalf, having just awakened in Elrond's Last Homey House, Gandalf is speaking:
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'... And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.'

'I thought I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?'

'Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes. ...'
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But I do agree that the power of the rings of Power differ deending on the bearer (or wearer), depending on the wearer's intentions and race, and perhaps other factors as well.

Can Val help?


Because of the different effects the rings had on different races, I have always assumed the Seven dwarven rings were diferent to the nine human rings in their making. Thinking about it, however, this is perhaps not the case. It is more likely that there were 16 lesser rings of power, all very similar, but having different effects on Dwarves to Humans.

The three elven rings, obviously were different to the other 16 in that they alone were untouched by Sauron, even though they applied his "technology".
I've just read the replies posted to Anduril and Sauron thread and I felt that I should be reading this thread again. So, after reading both the threads, I have another question (pah!!).

When we talk about someone like Galadriel of Sauron being much more powerful that someone like Frodo, what kind of power are we exactly talking about? I don't want answers in words like, "They had magical powers". I want as deep explainations as possible. I think I should make it more clear, I mean the question, but I'll do that after I get some answers and if necessary.

P.S.
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"You have not tried," she said. "Only thrice have you set the Ring upon your finger since you knew what you possessed. Do not try! It would destroy you. Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others."


This is what Galdriel told Frodo. Now, how was Frodo exactly suppose to become stronger?
I can't say much about the power of Galadriel - it isn't 'magic' as we understand magic, more of an affinity with the world she is part of. Elves are long lived and bound within the world, therefore they are more in tune with the world, anything growing and living..... she was one of the oldest elves, and has seen the light of the Trees. Her hair shines with that light. I know she has the Mirror which Frodo looked into and she gave him the phial which shone with the light of Earendil's star.

Galadriel herself said that what others see as elf-magic is not magic to the elves...

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For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel.


She was also able to perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind , or all of his mind that concerns the Elves.

Is this magic. It seems so to us but what the full explanation is of it, I don't know. Perhaps they are so in tune with the world they can work with it, with nature and with all the forces present. Elves also had greater control over their bodies and it is indicated that they could use 'telepathy' for want of a better word. But when the Ring was destroyed the three elven Rings lost their power to hold back time. From The Letters of JRRT..

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when the One goes, the last defenders of High-elven lore and beauty are shorn of power to hold back time, and depart


Also, the Ring exerts power over the wearer's mind...... how strong was Frodo's mind compared to Galadriel and Gandalf. She has lived for many ages, learned many things and Gandalf is a Maia. Compared to their strength of mind, Frodo's must appear quite simple - untried and untrained.

I don't think Frodo would ever have become strong enough to wield the Ring.

I m sure there is much more to be said on tis subject and no doubt someone will add to what I have said, perhaps with a clearer explanation.
I wonder if the rings actually had any "practical" powers. I mean, say, powers that might be useful in war or something. It seems to me, that JRRT gives much importance to war. Anyways, I can't really find any real description regarding the actual powers of any of the characters in LOTR. All I can remember is the incident in the Hobbit with the wargs, where Gandalf is able to manupulate fire. I wonder if it's because of the third Elven ring (Narya, was it?). I'm not exactly sure when Gandalf got that ring from Cirdan and whether he was wearing it at that time. (Mind you, all I've read is Hobbit, LOTR and PT Forums)

Anyways, I wonder what kind of power the one ring would exactly give in wars or something.
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I wonder if the rings actually had any "practical" powers. I mean, say, powers that might be useful in war or something. It seems to me, that JRRT gives much importance to war.

The Three were NOT meant for war.

Quote from FOTR, chapter Council of Elrond :

%%%The Elves returned no answer. `Did you not hear me, Glóin?' said Elrond. `The Three were not made by Sauron, nor did he ever touch them. But of them it is not permitted to speak. So much only in this hour of doubt I may now say. They are not idle. But they were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained. These things the Elves of Middle-earth have in some measure gained, though with sorrow. But all that has been wrought by those who wield the Three will turn to their undoing, and their minds and hearts will become revealed to Sauron, if he regains the One. It would be better if the Three had never been. That is his purpose.' %%%

Gandalf recieved his Ring as soon as he stepped foot on Middle-Earth, in the year 1000 of the Third Age. He was the last of the Istari to arrive, and Círdan gave Narya to Gandalf because he could foresee Gandalf would need it in his quest. In UT, it is written Gandalf used Narya to give spirit/courage to people.

I don't think Gandalf uses Narya to do that fireworks trick on the Wargs, that's just simple magic, imo. After all, Gandalf is supposed to be a Wizard. Narya is just a handy requisite he recieved from Narya, which would at times make his task in Middle-Earth simpler.
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Anyways, I wonder what kind of power the one ring would exactly give in wars or something.
Boromir thought it would give him the power of Command.
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What could not a warrior do in this hour, a great leader? ..... The Ring would give me power of Commanf. How I would drive the hosts of Mordor, and all men would flock to my banner!'

... while his talk dwelt on walls and weapons, and mustering of men; and he drew plans for great alliances and glorious victories to be; and he cast down Mordor, and became himself a mighty king, benevolent and wise. - FotR, Book II, Chapter 10
Even Sam had these visions of grandeur.
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Wild fantasies arose in his mind; and he saw Samwise the Strong, Hero of the Age, striding with a flaming sword across the darkened land, and armies flocking to his call as he marched to the overthrow of Barad-dur. And then all the clouds rolled away, and the white sun shown, and at his command the vale of Gorgoroth became a garden of flowers and trees and brought forth fruit. - RotK, Book VI, Chapter 1
And while Boromir acted on this vision by trying to take the Ring; Sam, who already had it in his possession (albit on the chain) saw the folly, and just like Galadriel, decided to forgo that future, to diminish, and (eventually) go into the West.
True, but Boromirs heart and upbringing told him to protect his people and land, Sams heart and upbringing told him to serve his master. You would think that after spending 500 years or so with Gollum, the Ring would have learned that hobbits didn't seek honour and grandure in battle, and rather try a different approach. But it was created by Sauron and he didn't have hobbits in mind, neither would he be able to understand their simple, but pure and true hearts.
Well, it was neither the Ring's nor Sauron's intent (will) that Bilbo would be the finder. That job was supposed to be by some Orc, whose rise to power would shout out to Sauron that, "I'm Baaaaaack!". That it was Bilbo who actually found it, was due to Eru's Plan gumming-up the works, or better yet, throwing a spanner into the machinations of Sauron.
Ummm, another "dumb" question from me here:

What were the powers of the Dwarves' and the men's rings about? I wonder what Sauron would exactly gain by getting control over all the rings? Say, if the rings were responsible for creating stuff like, say thingys that Elves were about, that would mean that Sauron would get control over the 3 races if he had the ring? Or maybe, control over what they were used to create? Some contradictions seem to occur in my mind. Can anyone make this more clear? And, oh, btw, what had exactly the Elven rings created? <<<(Was that positively dumb? Maybe, but I'd like a clearer idea. And btw, I've only just started with the Sil, so pardon me if I sound dumb!!)
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What were the powers of the Dwarves' and the men's rings about? I wonder what Sauron would exactly gain by getting control over all the rings? Say, if the rings were responsible for creating stuff like, say thingys that Elves were about, that would mean that Sauron would get control over the 3 races if he had the ring? Or maybe, control over what they were used to create? Some contradictions seem to occur in my mind. Can anyone make this more clear? And, oh, btw, what had exactly the Elven rings created? <<<(Was that positively dumb? Maybe, but I'd like a clearer idea. And btw, I've only just started with the Sil, so pardon me if I sound dumb!!)

The Rings didn't create anything. The 3 rings just made it possible to prevent all Elvish works in Middle-Earth from deteriorating. For instance Lothlorien : it was somehow placed out of the flow of time.

I don't know about the 7 rings of the dwarf-lords, but i surmise that they probably had something to do with protecting Dwarvish creations from deteriorating as well.

The 9 kings of men who recieved the 9 rings, were the only ones who used the Rings to make themselves more powerful, and as such were trapped and consumed by the One Ring.

The Ring description says : "one ring to find them, one ring to bring them and in the darkness bind them" --- if the Elves would wear the Three, the dwarves wear the 7 and Men wear the 9, Sauron would know all their thoughts, and would totally dominate them (in the darkness bind them). They would become slaves of Sauron.

Of course, this only happened with the 9 kings of Men, who became the Nazgûl, because the 3 Elves kings put off their Rings at the moment Sauron put the one ring on, and also because Sauron never touched the Three.

Sauron was never able to dominate the Dwarves, because their hearts were so strong that they'd never be stirred by evil or ally themselves to evil. The only thing Sauron could accomplish with the 7, is that they would make the Dwarves go mad about gold, etc.
Those who were given the Rings weren't told they were subject to the One Ring ..... they trusted Sauron at that time and it was the elves who realised his plan when he put the One Ring on. They thought they were getting rings which would 'slow decay' for the betterment of Middle-earth.

From Letters of JRRT

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The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. change viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance.... But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor - thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron ... such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.


Of Sauron and the One Ring he says...

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While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'.


From The Silmarillion - Of the Rings of Power.....

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The dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an overmastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of which evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron...and of the Seven Rings some were consumed in fire and some Sauron recovered.


The power of the wearer was enhanced - dwarves therefore became better at mining and greedier for wealth. And if any of their Rings survived they were with Sauron.

Letters of JRRT

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If the One Ring was actually unmade, annihilated, then its power would be dissolved, Sauron's own being would be diminished to vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of malicious will. But that he never contemplated nor feared. The Ring was unbreakable by any smithcraft less than his own. It was indissoluble in any fire, save the undying subterranean fire where it was made - and that was unapproachable, in Mordor. Also so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought....


A small question. Did the Nazgul actually wear the rings? Or were they with Sauron?
Methinks they wore them. But I'm not sure. Anyone brainy know the answer?

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Sauron was never able to dominate the Dwarves, because their hearts were so strong that they'd never be stirred by evil or ally themselves to evil.


GO THE DWARVES!!!! I am proud to say I am a dwarf. *lays hand across chest and starts singing the Glittering Caves national anthem*
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Methinks they wore them.


Well, if they wore them, why wasn't there any ring left after the fall of the Witch-King? (Mmmmmmmmm, I just love that fellow. Can't keep him out of my thoughts Wink Smilie )
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Sauron was never able to dominate the Dwarves, because their hearts were so strong that they'd never be stirred by evil or ally themselves to evil.
Instead they got gready and died in their quest for more more MORE gold and shiny thing!!

Sauron has the nine rings of the nazgul and all of the seven dwarven rings (though some of the seven are lost I believe). He doesn't need the rings to controll the nazgul, once they passed over to the spiritworld, they were his.
This thread might be of interest here - if you want to respond to it please cut and paste in this thread so we keep the most recent discussion going.

ControloftheRings
From the LOTR Appendix B "The Tale of Years"

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After the fall of the Dark Tower and the passing of Sauron, the Shadow was lifted from the hearts of all those who opposed him, but fear and despair fell upon his servents and allies. Three times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the Elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself. Though grievous harm was done to the fair woods on the border, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow was past, Celeborn came forth and let the host of Lorien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed


Explanations?

I'm sorry if the answer is obvious or something, but I haven't completed Silmarillion yet and haven't yet read UT, so....

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The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. change viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance.... But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor - thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron ... such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.


Reading this quote from the Letters, has this power of Galadriel to do with her magical abilities? And if yes, what magical powers did she possess?

16th Feb 2006. 08:06 IST. Floyd fixed a spelling mistake.
What Galadriel did with Dol Guldur, was equal to what Lúthien did on Tol-in-Gaurhoth :

"Then Lúthien stood upon the bridge, and declared her power: and the spell was loosed that bound stone to stone, and the gates were thrown down, and the walls opened, and the pits laid bare; and many thralls and captives came forth in wonder and dismay, shielding their eyes against the pale moon light, for they had lain long in the darkness of Sauron."

So, it seems it was some spell.

Lúthien was the daughter of Melian, and so her mother who was a Maia probably thought her a lot of "magic". Galadriel as well, must've been taught a lot of magical tricks by Melian :

"Galadriel his sister went not with him (Finrod) to Nargothrond, for in Doriath dwelt Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol, and there was great love between them. Therefore she remained in the Hidden Kingdom, and abode with Melian, and of her learned great lore and wisdom concerning Middle-earth."

What "magic" Galadriel learnt from Melian, i don't know. She could probably throw a mean fireball.
Or maybe she just jawboned some workers to tear the place apart. Her real magic was her ability to see possible futures in her watery mirror.
Go Grondy!!!!!!! I agree.
I was going through some research I did for a different goup and I stumbled on info on the Dwarven Rings & what happened to (at least one of) them. I thought maybe I could share:

From the Silmarillion:

"they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an overmastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts..."

All seven of the great dwarven holds of old were created with the aid of one of the seven. Sauron gathered these rings after the torture of Celebrimbor and gave them to seven dwarven kings in an attempt to corrupt the rulers and thus use their race as more soldiers in his army. But the dwarves proved to powerful of will to dominate and the rings only enflamed their lust for gold, not ensnare their minds. Of the dwarven rings only the life of one is documented. This is the ring of Durin’s tribe. Given to Durin III by Sauron, it passed down Durin’s line until it reached Thráin. While traveling in the wilds after constant misfortunes of his line, he was way-laid by orcs and taken prisoner by the Necromancer of Dol Guldur. Who was in truth Sauron regathering his power.
More on this last Dwarven Ring from near the end of Appendix A to LotR
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It was therefore perhaps partly by the malice of the Ring that Thráin after some years became restless and discontented. The lust for gold was ever in his mind. At last, when he could endure no longer, he turned his thoughts to Erebor, and resolved to go back there. He said nothing to Thorin of what was in his heart; but with Balin and Dwalin and a few others, he arose and said farewell and departed.

Little is known of what happened to him afterwards. It would now seem that as soon as he was abroad with a few companions he was hunted by the emissaries of Sauron. Wolves pursued him, Orcs waylaid him, evil birds shadowed his path, and the more he strove to go north the more misfortunes opposed him. There came a dark night when he and his companions were wandering in the land beyond Anduin, and they were driven by a black rain to take shelter under the eves of Mirkwood. In the morning he was gone from the camp, and his companions called him in vain. They searched for him many days, until at last giving up hope they departed and came at length back to Thorin. Only long after was it learned that Thráin had been taken alive and brought to the pits of Dol Guldur. There he was tormented and the Ring taken from him, and there he died.
In The Hobbit, Gandalf told Thorin he had found Thráin (who at the time had amnesea) in the Necromancer's dungeons before he died, and that is where Gandalf got the map and silver key to the back door to the Lonely Mountain. He didn't mention the last Dwarven Ring, as that was long gone. Had Thrain still had it, it would also have been passed on to Thorin in the fulness of time.
Of course, one should keep in mind that Galadriel was no Dwarf.
Someone please remind me why the One Ring would prolong life, as in the case of Bilbo or Gollum..
well to answer floyds question regarding Galadriel laying the walls of Dol Gildur bare .. this is not the first time in the histories of Middle Earth .. in fact Luthien does something similar when she rescues Beren from Sauron. how she actually achieves this is by a song .. sounds silly ?? but i think id like to remind everyone about something very basic to Tolkiens works which people seem to have forgotten when they talk about magic. The whole of creation and underlying principle for Arda is music. I think we should not forget that because that would give music and songs a power beyond measure. if the Ainur sang the theme of the world and it has been implemented by the will of Eru, then i think we can glimpse the power of songs and music in Tolkiens Middle Earth. thus maybe singing a song by Frodo can achieve nothing except the stirring of many emotions, or listening to the sea stir your heart strings (Ulmos music was the most deep and moving, he was the ainur most deeply instructed by Eru in music .. im bad at quoting but its written somewhere) but when someone powerful like Luthien and Galadriel sing they have an entirely different effect. we must not even be carried away into thinking that Luthien was only a beautiful but essentially feminine (ie weak in Tolkiens works) charachter .. she was the daughter of the king of one of the three kindreds who had also seen the light of the two trees and a Maia. Her power was veiled but incredible. thus she and Beren accomplish that wondrous feat mentioned in the Sil.

even Finrod (that's me .. lol Smile Smilie ) and Sauron have a battle in songs of power. the modern concept of magic arises from the fame and widespread appeal of another very famous work, namely King Arthur and the Knights of the round table. here Merlins magic is something that is ethereal and thus our concept of magic is very different. Tolkien, in fact, was at great pains to distinguish this magic from the magic of the elves and the other races. also the readon why frodo and sam are told by Galadriel ".. i dont knwo what you mean by magic .." or something to that effect. galadriel has been in Aman and has seen the Valar and the light of the two trees and also heard many songs of power sung by the valar themselves .. thus her power. So is Luthien instructed in music by her mother, thus her power.

i have some things to add .. but gtg now so ill share them a bit later. btw Floyd, Vee was telling me youre from India .. if you are can you tell me from where .. if were lucky we may meet up.

I've tried to read the threads above, and I understand that Sauron did control the power of the 9 mens (who once were Kings)rings
Did they have any power at all with their rings ? Did they all look alike or did the leader of the Nazgul have one with more power ?
I'm sorry if this has already been answeredSmile Smilie
A small correction Mellon - only three of the Nazgul were Kings, not all nine.
She was not asking if all the Nine were Kings, she asked if they had power when equipped with their own rings. I myself am partially blind on the matter, but as they had accepted the "gifts" from the Deciever, they departed from life and became nor living nor dead, it taken away their life, so I would think that they only had power from their rings for a limited time only, which is what Sauron would have wanted. He wanted them to be convinced that they had great power from them and then slowly it would consume them....... Anyone have any light on it???
Thanks for correcting me Lord of All and thanks Loss for your answer Smile Smilie
But really did the rings look just the same and for how long did the power work and how did they use it ?
Nay the Rings did not look the same.

The Smiths of Ost-in-Edhil created many Rings of power but only 19 of them were dubbed 'the Great Rings' - the others are called the 'lessar Rings'.

The Lessar rings were made of plain gold and had no adornments whilst the Rings of Power each were encrusted with a stone of different kinds.

Sauron made his One Ring to look like one of the Lessar Rings, without adornment or stone attachments.
My guess is that they, the Nazgul, kept the Rings on, and the power that the rings gave stayed as well, though somewhat diminished. How else could the Nazgul have inspired such utter fear and dread? Also, the Black Breath, experienced by Merry in Bree, and Faramir, the only two actually named, but there were other victims.
Again thanks for answeringSmile Smilie I learn more every day and it's fun to exchange different ideas
I thought after Sauron corrupted the 9 he took back the rings once the 9 were fully turned into wraiths, because by then they were already under his full control. I know he took back or at least tried to back all the rings he gave to the Dwarves. Dwarves are a lot hardier than men and I don't think one of them ever did turn into a wraith.
He tried to take the 7 back because he couldn't corrupt them, which was his original purpose. And so, since he couldn't, he didn't want them to have the rings, which have just continued giving the dwarves more wealth and skill. Maybe he was afraid that they might buy off Deal Smilie some of his more questionable allies Good and Evil Smilie when the time came to take mastery of ME. Very Evil Smilie
He only took back 4 (or 3 - I forget which) of the Dwarven Rings of Power - the rest were comsumed by Dragons.
I thought all of the dwarfs rings were corrupted by the Dragonsbreath/fire after Sauron cursed the treasure in each place were the rings were placed .
Not all, it says that one was taken from whats-his-name in Dol Guldor.
Sauron recovered 3 of the Dwarven Rings whilst the rest were consumed in Dragon Fire.
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A small correction Mellon - only three of the Nazgul were Kings, not all nine.

Where did you come upon this information, if I may ask?

They were all great Kings of Men, or Sauron wouldn't have bestowed the Nine to them.
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They were all great Kings of Men

I thought so too ...at least that is what I 've read in the books .Maybe LoA has another book/copy ?
I know the quote you two are getting confused with. Its here:

"Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old."

They became mighty in their day - thats not to say all were Kings. Indeed 6 were Warriors and sorcerers.
Forgive me but I cannot locate at the moment the quote where it says only 3 were Kings. It is just one of those 'known things'. I will try to get it for you however.
It is stated in the Akallabêth
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'...among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race'
Indeed three of these names are Númenórean in form: Murazor, Akhorahil and Adunaphel.

so believe when Tolkien mentions somewhere in LOTR that the Nazguls were 'Kings' of men he is merely stating they were very powerful among men, and doesn't necessarily mean they were all Kings.

However I'm probably wrong and All 9 of them were Kings but only 3 of them are worthy of Tolkien giving them a name, as was the case, and the other 6 may have still been lords/kinds of men just not as majestic as the 3 greater Nazguls.
Yes indeed I have pondered that myself. I could never think of Which Kings they were. In the time the Nazgul came to be Numenor was at large and we know that none of the Numenorean Kings became wraiths. I assumed that it had to be some King of the Easterlings or Haradrim but that did not seem to fit.

Your quote has addressed the matter with keeness Turin.

By king in this instance Tolkien simply meant 'Great Lord'. As we know Numenor had many Great Lords opperating at the same time as the King. It appears this is what Tolkien meant by 3 Kings.

So I suppose that the 3 'king' Nazgul were really Lords of Numenor who became 'Black Numenoreans' when sailing over to Middle-earth, thus they were ensnared.

I think we can now eliminate that they were 'all kings'. It appears that none of them were - only 3 'Great lords of Numenorean race'.
Thank you all for responding Smile Smilie No matter the debate /discussion ,I think you all answered my first question
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Lord of All
Your quote has addressed the matter with keeness Turin.

Thank you. Smile Smilie

it really is a touchy subject, like most discussions and debates Tolkien's work, because often Tolkien's work conflicts within itself or else he never got around to finishing a specific 'chapter'.
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They became mighty in their day - thats not to say all were Kings. Indeed 6 were Warriors and sorcerers.

They became warriors, kings and sorcerors, like the quote says. Ever heard of the Witch-King of Angmar? First they were warriors/Kings and the power of their Rings made them sorcerors. Duh.

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Indeed three of these names are Númenórean in form: Murazor, Akhorahil and Adunaphel.

Those names do not originate from JRRT. The only name coming from JRRT was Khamûl.

Those names you've provided come from a LOTR RPG... I think you should've read the rest of the article on the Encyclopedia of Arda where you've copied it from.

I'll post part of this article in here myself :
Quote:
"One of them, the second in rank after the Lord of the Nazgûl himself, was named Khamûl, and also known as the Black Easterling. This is the only one of the nine Nazgûl explicitly named by Tolkien.

This may come as a surprise if you've come across one of the many sources that list a set of names of the other eight: Murazor (the Witch-king himself), Dwar, Ji Indur, Akhorahil, Hoarmurath, Adunaphel, Ren and Uvatha. These names are common across the Web, and often have detailed biographies to go with them. They're also consistent with what Tolkien had to say about the origins of the Nazgûl: in the Akallabêth it is stated '...among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race', and indeed three of these names are Númenórean in form: Murazor, Akhorahil and Adunaphel.

None of these eight names, though, have their origins in Tolkien's own work. Instead, they come from a series of role-playing and trading card games produced by Iron Crown Enterprises. The names of Murazor, Dwar and the rest emerged from the unavoidable need for these games to develop and expand Tolkien's universe to meet the needs of the gaming fraternity. The games' popularity accounts for the regular appearance of the names, to the extent that they're now frequently presented as the 'true' names of the remaining eight Nazgûl.

Some readers have even suggested that these names are so widely accepted that they should be considered the de facto names for the eight otherwise unnamed Ringwraiths. On a personal level, or in the context of the games that spawned the names, this isn't an unreasonable approach: if Tolkien never told us the name of, say, the Witch-king, there seems little obvious harm in imagining that his name was originally Murazor (or anything else, for that matter). Things become a little more problematic where the names are published without explanation: we receive plenty of e-mail from puzzled readers trying to work out which of Tolkien's books the names come from (hence this entry in the FAQ). "


Hence I am sorry to say that the argument about 3 Kings is incorrect. Somebody may be confusing this with a certain movie starring George Clooney et al. I take it they were all Kings, but the other 6 were Kings of the Easterlings or Haradrim.

Moderator Smilie Next time, please try to not rip quotes out of context just to be proven right but try to give the entire quote. And please, do post where the quote comes from. Thank you. Moderator Smilie
My first quote clearly say They were 'Kings, warriors, and sorcerers of old'. - Thus your theory about them all being Kings is utterly flawed.
I am not sure where you are coming from mentioning the 'Witchking'. What insight does this bring?
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