Login | Register
 
Message Board | Latest Posts | Your Recent Posts | Rules

Thread: Questions

Is this discussion interesting? Share it on Twitter!

Bottom of Page    Message Board > The Lord of the Rings > Questions   
Some doubts arise in my mind as I watch TTT and think about the books and the path ahead.

1. What was the point of taking Pippin to Minas Tirith? I didn't understand that one thing when I watched the movie and afterwords the book didn't make it clear either. I think I'll need to elaborate this question a bit, but I'll do that after I've got some answers. I need to see how this shapes up before I comment any more on it.

2. What was the expected path for Frodo to take to Mordor which would have been thought about at the Counsil of Elrond? Again, same thing about this question. I'll need some answers before I can say any more.

3. OK. This one is a rather "modern" question which may not be significant at all, but anyways I have it in my mind, so I'll ask it. I was thinking about the huge armies. Where do they get all the metal and stuff required for the armies from???

4. Can anyone tell me about the origin of the Orcs?
Hello again, Floyd. As I still have The Silmarillon open here in front of me, I would like to answer your last question about orcs. In the third chapter of The Sil (Of The Coming Of The Elves) it talks about the beginning of orcs, and how they were created by Melkor.

Quote:
But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes.


The end of this passage also states that this was the vilest deed of Melkor and the most hateful to Iluvatar. It also states that the orcs secretly hated their master as they lived in fear of him and attributed all their misery to him.
All you lucky people who have the Silmarillion...

Hmm, I remember Saruman saying something about mutation among Elves to breed the Orcs and that he had perfected them to Uruk-Hai in the TFOTR movie.

This leads to another question, though it could be real easy.

I suppose the Orcs were immortal too?

Oh yes, and another one, How did Saruman exactly breed the Uruks?
I don't know whether orcs were immortel or not. But I would guess that they aren't. I would think that they lost their immortality when they were corrupted by Melkor. I think that when creatures are corrupted by Melkor they lose their former identity and become new creatures with their own traits.

Just as a Troll will turn to stone in sunlight but an Ent will not.

As for breeding Uruks, that was just part of the movie, the book doesn't mention Saruman creating a new kind of ors. There are a few words in the books about half orcs and such, like Bill Ferney and Saruman's men who took over the shire, but Saruman did not create the Uruk-Hai.
So, the Uruks weren't different from the Orcs then?
Quote:
So, the Uruks weren't different from the Orcs then?


The Uruk hai were a strain of Orcs bred by Sauron and first seen in Middle Earth in TA 2475 when they sacked Osgiliath. Unlike normal orcs, they were tall, walked straight and were not weakened by sunlight. I think Sauron had just perfected the Orcs which Melkor had created by selective breeding, rather than cross breeding with Men.

Tolkien was also in a dilemna has to the origin of Orcs. Although in the Silmarillion it links their creation to captured Elves, Tolkien also wrote that the earliest Orcs were perhaps lesser Maiar spirits in flesh form. As to being immortal, nothing is really mentioned either way, but it is thought that part of the corruption would have included the loss of immortality.
Another question!!!

Why would an Elvish rope hurt Gollum?

I must thank Gildor for this one. His needle hurt him and gave me the question!!!
Quote:
The Uruk hai were a strain of Orcs bred by Sauron and first seen in Middle Earth in TA 2475 when they sacked Osgiliath


I don't know about the dates. But, if sacking of Osgilliath is during the battle of the Pelennor fields, then read on, otherwise forget it.

So, what about the Uruks who carried Merry and Pippin? Ugluk i suppose? I think the chapter "Uruk Hai" in TFOTR
The Battle of Pelennor Fields occurred on the 'Ides of March' 3019 TA, some 544 years after the sack of Osgilliath.

I wonder if the Witchking even received that warning of Caesar's? Probably did, but just chose to ignore it, thinking himself immortal. Elf With a Big Grin Smilie
Quote:
1. What was the point of taking Pippin to Minas Tirith?
Sauron was sending a Ringwraith to Isenguard to retrieve Pippin from the clutches of Saruman, thus Gandalf wanted to get Pippin away from the area. For if Pippin was captured he would spill the beans about Frodo's mission. The safest place in Middle-earth for Pippin to be hidden was Minas Tirith.
Quote:
2. What was the expected path for Frodo to take to Mordor which would have been thought about at the Counsil of Elrond?
I think they considered the project so hopeless, that Elrond just wanted the Ring out of Rivendell and Gandalf was going to have to play it by ear once he had conferred with Celeborn and Galadriel.
Quote:
3. Where do they get all the metal and stuff required for the armies from???
From all the little people in the country's savings and plowshares. The rulers would also go into debt to finance their wars, thus requiring higher taxes; and sometimes they would even trump-up charges against their creditors to keep from having to pay off their war debts.
Quote:
Why would an Elvish rope hurt Gollum?


I would say that's because Gollum possessed (or, rather, "was" possessed by) the Ring for 500 years, so he might've grown to a certain distaste of Elvish things. He was regressing very much (remember the cooked food episode, both in the book and the movie).
Anyway, I'm sure someone will find a better answer to your question...
Quote:
What was the point of taking Pippin to Minas Tirith? I didn't understand that one thing when I watched the movie and afterwords the book didn't make it clear either. I think I'll need to elaborate this question a bit, but I'll do that after I've got some answers. I need to see how this shapes up before I comment any more on it.


Well I see Grondy has basically already answered this one, but what the heck, Iíll throw in my two cents while Iím here too, Pippin had obviously reveled himself to Sauron when he gazed into the palantir, and for a short time, Sauron mistakenly thought that Pippin was the hobbit with the Ring.

Gandalf taking Pippin to Minas Tirith served as a diversion to fool Sauron into thinking that the Ring was going to Minas Tirith. This distracted Sauron and diverted all of his attention towards Minas Tirith, forcing him to strike sooner than he wanted, bought more time for Frodo and Sam, and helped them in their cause to escape his detection.

Further, it sort of allowed Gandalf to ďbaby-sitĒ Pippin, and make sure he didnít get into any more mischief. Also, I think itís fairly reasonable to assume that Gandalf being who he was probably sensed that Pippin had some sort of part to play in Minas Tirith.
Elf Smilie
Can someone please tell me what the sack of Osgilliath is?
I should look it up precisely when it was referred to, such as when Osgiliath was first taken years before the war of the rings or the more recent recapture of the half of the city that the Gondorians had won back. Anyway, sacking is the plundering, theft of goods of a city once captured, though you probably already knew that much.

I had always assumed that it was called that because of the sacks of stuff the victors hauled away. Thinking maybe I was wrong, I just looked it up. First it seemed like I was wrong because it is really from the Medieval Latin saccare, to plunder. However it turns out that that word is from the Latin saccus, sack, because of the sacks the victors hauled away.

I can well imagine that people might this stuff tedious, but I Iove it.

I thought it was pretty explicit that Gandalf takes Pippin to get him away from the Palantir lest he be further tempted.
As I have nothing further to contribute to your quandry, because there are many very good answers already given and my mind is blank, as usual, I am not going to throw my less-than-two-cents-worth in. However; I will say that your questions are both intriguing and thought-provoking, which is wonderful! Truly an "eye-opener", to quote one Samwise Gamgee. Just don't get too technical-like myself, some of us have not had enough coffee yet to actually think in depth about anything!(Only kidding-keep the inquisitiveness coming!). Way to go, Floyd_n_milian! Big Smile Smilie
Quote:
I should look it up precisely when it was referred to, such as when Osgiliath was first taken years before the war of the rings or the more recent recapture of the half of the city that the Gondorians had won back.


I believe Osgiliath was first attacked around 1437 of the Third Age, and began to fall into ruin some 200 years later around T.A. 1640. Osgiliath was finally ruined, and itís stone bridge broken in T.A. 2475, or about 526 years before the events in LotR take place if thatís easier to remember (Bilboís birthday party at the beginning of FotR was in T. A. 3001).
Elf Smilie
Witches of Cara-dun
I aran Posted Thursday 16th September 2004 (04:23am)

Aiya. I was wondering if anyone knew much about the witches of Cara-dun. I have always been kind of curious of them, but never known anything about them.
What the heck is the witches of Cara-dun? I'm not understanding. Where did you get that from?

Quote:
Can someone please tell me what the sack of Osgilliath is?


The sack, meaning the ruin.
I know what sack means! I just want to know when and how it happened.
Hi I Aran. Welcome to Planet Tolkien

Quote:
I was wondering if anyone knew much about the witches of Cara-dun.


The only thing bearing any resemblence to this is the Witchking of Angmar whose city was Carn Dum. Is this what you meant? Failing that, I've never heard of Cara-dun, or for that matter the witches thereof.
Excuse me, but I still don't know what the sack of Osgilliath was about!
I'm not able to answer your question about the sacking of Osgilliath, Floyd.

But I would like to ask a question similar to one of your earlier ones, regarding the finer points of outfitting a large army back then. I've often wondered how the Rohirrim kept themselves supplied with horses, as I'm sure there were losses after each battle. One does not simply bring an extra horse with them I would imagine. Also in the ROTK movie, as the Rohirrim was mustered by King Theoden they showed the large assemblage of troops complete with tents and bedding. Surely this was not typical for most battles, unless there was a well coordinated support crew following behind the riders. I realize this may be obvious questions for those who know more about military history; but for a novice like me it makes me stop and wonder. And the old saying goes that an army marches on its stomach, meaning someone needed to keep these guys fed. Was there wagons of cooking utensils and food traipsing along behind? Any input on this one?
Quote:
Also in the ROTK movie, as the Rohirrim was mustered by King Theoden they showed the large assemblage of troops complete with tents and bedding. Surely this was not typical for most battles, unless there was a well coordinated support crew following behind the riders. I realize this may be obvious questions for those who know more about military history; but for a novice like me it makes me stop and wonder. And the old saying goes that an army marches on its stomach, meaning someone needed to keep these guys fed. Was there wagons of cooking utensils and food traipsing along behind? Any input on this one?


There is mention in RotK about the Rohirrim army when Merry and Theoden meet up with the army at Dunharrow

Quote:
On all the level spaces there was great concourse of men..... but stretching away into the distance behind there were ordered rows of tents and booths, and lines of picketed horses, and great store of arms, and piled spears bristling like thickets of new-planted trees.


Considering the numbers of soldiers involved and the distance they had to travel it would make sense to take everything along - armourers, cooks, provisions, swordsmiths etc. and all those other trades that service both military and civilians.
I also have a question concerning the books. After the death of Denethor, did Faramir receive the ring of the steward?

Elf Confused Smilie
Well, I haven't read anything about it. The Stewards have a ring? And here was I thinking I was so clever, remembering exactly how many years Tuor was an outlaw, and how many days he journeyed along the Cirith Ninniach before he got to Nevrast and all that. (I'm reading Unfinished Tales) But I supposed he would have. After all, he is Steward.

Quote:
1. What was the point of taking Pippin to Minas Tirith? I didn't understand that one thing when I watched the movie and afterwords the book didn't make it clear either. I think I'll need to elaborate this question a bit, but I'll do that after I've got some answers. I need to see how this shapes up before I comment any more on it.


WEll, Gandalf probably didn't want him going after the palantir again after he gave it to ARagorn. It could've been disastrous.

Quote:
2. What was the expected path for Frodo to take to Mordor which would have been thought about at the Council of Elrond? Again, same thing about this question. I'll need some answers before I can say any more.


I don't really think they thought about it that much. But I suppose the plan was go over the pass of Caradhras, go to Lorien, and decide whether to go to Minas Tirith or Mordor. If Minas TIrith, go over the plains of Rohan. And Mordor? Not too sure.

And I would answer the other questions as best i can, but alas! the bell just rang and it's the end of the free period in Computers.
Loni, your more clever than me. My thoughts became jumbled and I hadn't realized what I wrote till now.

This is what I meant to type:
*I also have a question concerning the books. After the death of Denethor, did Faramir receive the white rod of the steward?*

Sorry all.
Denethor broke his rod steward (pun intended) before he burnt himself on his pyre.

So i guess the rod burnt into oblivion just like Denethor.

It does state clearly that Denethor broke the rod and cast it onto the pyre..... so what was the white rod that Faramir handed to Aragorn?

Quote:
"The last Steward of Gondor begs leave to surrender his office." And he held out a white rod; but Aragorn took the rod and gave it back, saying: "That office is not ended, and it shall be thine and thy heirs' as long as my line shall last...."
Quote:
It does state clearly that Denethor broke the rod and cast it onto the pyre..... so what was the white rod that Faramir handed to Aragorn?
No, sorry to disagree, but it says in my Ballantine Movie Cover Paperback Edition of the Return of the King that:
Quote:
Then Denethor leaped upon the table, and standing there wreathed in fire and smoke he took up the staff of his stewardship that lay at his feet and broke it on his knee. Casting the pieces into the blaze he bowed and laid himself on the table, clasping the palantir with both hands upon his breast.
The bold highlights in the above quote are mine.

Thus I think you will find each Steward had his own staff for everyday use, while the Official White Rod of Stewardship was kept locked in some dusty old tower along with the "great casket of black lebethron bound with silver" wherein was kept the crown of Earnur the last King, except of course that Tolkien told us via Faramir, that the casket was actually kept in an old tomb in Rath Dinen,which may or may not have been dusty. Elf With a Big Grin Smilie

Anyway, after so many centuries I don't think the individual Stewards would have subjected the ancient Official White Rod of Stewardship to the daily wear and tear of their work; it would have been relegated to a place of honor and only used on those days when the Office of Stewardship was passed on from father to son. However, they would have each carried their own Staff of Stewardship as a symbol to show who was "Fearless Leader". Teacher Smilie

If an older edition actually says Denethor broke his rod, Tolkien may have made the correction with the revised edition of 1965 which he made for the US market to combat the pirated copies published unauthorized by another company. As far as I know, in the US the only authorized editions are by Ballantine, Houghton Mifflin, and The Easton Press.
Neat, Grondy - one little word makes such a difference - I didn't notice that. Thanks.