Login | Register
 
Message Board | Latest Posts | Your Recent Posts | Rules

Thread: Anduril and Sauron

Is this discussion interesting? Share it on Twitter!

Bottom of Page    Message Board > The Lord of the Rings > Anduril and Sauron   
This came to my mind while watching RotK movie and especially Anduril's unveiling.

Well the question is (or should I say, the only question then was) : What was so special about Anduril?

I asked this immediately in the forums as it came to my mind. Two people answered, Gildor and Amarie, as follows:

This is from Amie's log of the conversation...

(Floyd_n_milan) what was so special about Anduril?
(Gildor) I was made from the shards of Narsil
(Amarie) It is Narsil put back together, the blade that cut the ring of Saurons finger, a sign of Aragorns inherritage
(Floyd_n_milan) so?
(Floyd_n_milan) i know that
(Floyd_n_milan) still
(Floyd_n_milan) Narsil?
(Amarie) So?????
(Floyd_n_milan) explaination please
(Amarie) Narsil, Isildurs sword
(Floyd_n_milan) im asking so what
(Floyd_n_milan) why would that make it so special
(Floyd_n_milan) was there any spell on it or something?
(Amarie) It cut Saurons finger of!!! It hurt the dark lord, make him loose the Ring and most of his powers, he lost the battle


So, as can be seen from that log, obviously, it didn't clear my doubts(!), but in fact, gave me some more questions. So here's the list(!) of questions :

1. What was so special about Anduril?

2. Why would it hurt Sauron if he was so powerful and was wearing the ring at the time?

3. After the ring was cut from his hands, why would Sauron lose his self and all? Was he that weak without the ring?

4. Would Aragorn be able to kill the Witch King (Lord of the Nazgul)?

This is with referance to the thread Death of the Witch-King. It is to be noted though, that I haven't read the whole thread. I've read the posts regarding Merry's sword. So please excuse me if this question is useless!!

5. Somebody please explain about Narsil.


That's all I can think of right now. Wink Smilie Hope someone answers. And I must warn all of you that some more questions might arise out of the answers!!!
Anduril was reforged from the shards of Narsil, Elendil's sword which was originally made by Telchar of the Nogrod, a dwarven smith of outstanding skill. The dwarves were taught their skills and craft by Aule and were able to embellish their weapons with a certain 'magic'. When Anduril was made from the shards the elves added runes to the blade and these probably enhanced it as well. Also, as well as any 'magic', the sword had a historic fame and was revered as an heirloom and Aragorn was able to use that to rally people to it. It was well known throughout Middle-earth and its power, whether real or mere legend, gave those who fought beside it, faith and strength.
Anduril is very special. It is the heirloom of Isildur's house. It proves Aragorn is the heir of Isildur. Do you remember when ARagorn said he looked int he palantir,a nd he said he showed Sauron Anduril, and he was scared. Sauron didn't know there was an heir of Isildur still around, but the sword proved it. It was a big deal when Sauron was destroyed. Just like Nelson's ship is preserved today still in Britain. Cause it was a big deal when nelson won the battle. But of course it was an even bigger deal defeating Sauron.

Yes, Sauron was powerful. But not even he was indestructible. And the Ring doesn't make him indestructible. Elendil was much stronger and powerful than a normal king, because he had just come from Numenor, where men lived longer. And with the help of Gil-galad... well, you can see they woudl've been a pretty strong alliance. But even they, with their might and power, could not kill Sauron without getting themselves killed. It took a lot to kill Sauron. But no one in Middle-earth is indestructible. The obvious question is "Then, if he could be destroyed witht he Ring, why was Gandalf and the Council and the lot of them acting as if if the Ring was taken to Sauron, then he would be unstoppable?" The answer is that they were not as strong as they were when they defeated Sauron. most of the Elves had gone over the sea. Men had diminished in their power. There was no way they could've defeated Sauron a second time.

Sauron was dead before the Ring was cut off his hand. Isildur cut the Ring from hsi hand AFTER Gil-Galad and Elendil killed him.

I don't think Aragorn cuold've killed him. Not in my opinion. They say no Man could kill him. Of course, you can ask why Eowyn could. It's debatable whether Man meant 'mankind' or 'male' in the context where that was said. But you could argue that Merry was the one who stabbed him. And he was not a Man. some people say that Eowyn killed him, and the prophecy ws wrong, because it meant 'mankind,' and so Aragorn could kill him. Some say that Eowyn could kill him because she was a girl, and so Aragorn could not kill him. Some say Merry killed him, and it meant mankind, sot he prophecy was right, and Aragorn could not kill him. Some say Merry killed him, and it meant male, and Merry is male, and so the prophecy was wrong, and ARagorn could therefore kill him. I myself beleive that Merry killed him, Aragorn couldn't, that it meant 'mankind,' because in the German copy of the Lord fo the Rings, it says 'mankind,' (THere are different words in German for the two meanings: Mann and Mench.) and so the prophecy was right. I think it was Glorfindel who said no man cuold kill him. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Narsil was wrought by Telchar of Nogrod, who was a very skilled dwarf. I'm not sure how it got to Elendil, but it did. He used it to help kill Sauron. It passed to Isildur, and then Valandil, and so down to Aragorn. The rest is in The Lord fo the Rings.

Quote:
Sauron was dead before the Ring was cut off his hand. Isildur cut the Ring from hsi hand AFTER Gil-Galad and Elendil killed him.

That statement is incorrect. Here's what's in LOTR :

" Then Gil-galad and Elendil passed into Mordor and encompassed the stronghold of Sauron; and they laid siege to it for seven years, and suffered grievous loss by fire and by the darts and bolts of the Enemy, and Sauron sent many sorties against them. There in the valley of Gorgoroth Anarion son of Elendil was slain, and many others. But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years. "

It says nowhere that Gil-Galad and Elendil killed Sauron, they only threw him down. It's Isildur who delivered the mortal blow to Sauron, by cutting off the Ring with a shard from Narsil.

Here's what Isildur says in UT :

" But Isildur refused this counsel, saying: 'This i will have as were-gild for my father's death, and my brothers. Was it not i that dealt the Enemy his death-blow?' And the Ring that he held seemed to him exceedingly fair to look on; and he would not suffer it to be destroyed. Taking it therefore he returned at first to Minas Anor, and there planted the White Tree in memory of his brother Anarion. "

Quote:
4. Would Aragorn be able to kill the Witch King (Lord of the Nazgul)?

I say yes! Although the Witch-King says "No man can kill me", this statement is only true as long as the spell which makes him invulnerable, stands. Merry broke that spell because he had a sword from Westernesse, an 'enchanted' sword. After Merry broke the spell, Eowyn, who was at the wrong place at the wrong time, or rather, at the good place at the good time, could kill him then by using a normal sword.

But as Aragorn's sword Anduril is a sword from Westernesse as well, and enchanted as well, as Elendil was able to throw Sauron down with it, that sword must've been able to break the witch-king's spell as well. And after that, Aragorn would be able to kill the witch-king.

Aragorn would be able to kill the Witch-King for the same reasons as Gandalf would be able to do so.
I have another question, which I've posted on the Power of the Rings of Power thread. The question is relevant to both the threads, but seems to fit in better in that thread.
Quote:

Quote:
4. Would Aragorn be able to kill the Witch King (Lord of the Nazgul)?

I say yes! Although the Witch-King says "No man can kill me", this statement is only true as long as the spell which makes him invulnerable, stands. Merry broke that spell because he had a sword from Westernesse, an 'enchanted' sword. After Merry broke the spell, Eowyn, who was at the wrong place at the wrong time, or rather, at the good place at the good time, could kill him then by using a normal sword.


I agree with Virumor on this one. Glorfindel had originally prophesised to King Eamur, "Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall."

I think what Glorfindel was saying here was some glimpse of the future he had seen. Elves were known to posses such foresight (perhaps as a consequence of talking with the Valar who had each seen glimpses of the future during the Great Music). I think the statement was a prophesy rather than a fact. I don't believe the Witchking was impervious to weapons or to men, and Glorfindel was not saying he was. He was saying, however, to Eamur that it was not his fate to die at that time, and it would not be at the hand of a man.

Many people heard this statement, however, and the rumour spread that the Witchking could not be killed by a man. I'm guessing the witchking eventually heard the rumour himself, perhaps played on the fear of it for a while, and over the centuries eventually came to believe it. In a way it would be similar to someone having a glimpse of Smaug's death and saying Smaug would not die at the hands of a dwarf. The statement would be true, but it would not have made him immune to them had Thorin shot the arrow rather than Bard.

Quote:
2. Why would it hurt Sauron if he was so powerful and was wearing the ring at the time?


You have to remember that Sauron was merely completed by the Ring... he initially made it to control the other Rings of Power, rather than amplify his own strenght. The Ring bore his keeper into the spirit world, yet it didn't remove him from the material world; Sauron could be killed (physically speaking) with or without his Ring on.

Quote:
3. After the ring was cut from his hands, why would Sauron lose his self and all? Was he that weak without the ring?


Sauron, when forging the Ring, used a lot of his power so that it could control the other Rings; he put forth into it his malice and his knowledge to create the ultimate weapon: the one gives total control and tempts everyone! However, in making such a weapon, he had to put a lot of his own being into it, practically his liaison with the material world; so, when the Ring was taken from him, he lost his physical form and needed some (long) time to get it back. Cause, from what Gollum says "The Black Hand has only four fingers", we can imagine Sauron has managed to take some form, though not the one he had when he still got the Ring!

A couple of intereting quotes from The Letters of JRR Tolkien.

Quote:
Isildur, Elendil's son, cuts the ring from Sauron's hand, and his power departs, and his spirit flees into the shadows. But the evil begins to work. Isildur claims the Ring as his own, as 'the Weregild ofhis father', and refuses to cast it into the Fire nearby...... the Ring is lost, pasing out of all knowledge. But it is not unmade, and the Dark Tower built with its aid still stands....


Quote:
It was bcause of this pre-occupation with the Children of God that the spirits so often took the form and likeness of the Children, especally after their appearance. It was thus that Sauron appeared in this shape. It is mythologically supposed that when this shape was 'real', that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. ....Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Numenor (I suppose because each buidling-up used up some of the inherent energy between the indestructible mind and being, and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of re-building after the destriuction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear 'mythologically' in the present book.
Quote:
It says nowhere that Gil-Galad and Elendil killed Sauron, they only threw him down. It's Isildur who delivered the mortal blow to Sauron, by cutting off the Ring with a shard from Narsil.


THat's what I meant. He was mortally wounded. Therefore killed. But I disagree about it being achieved by cutting the Ring off his hand. This is a quote from the Fellowship of the Ring:

Quote:
It was Gil-galad, Elven-king and Elendil of Westernesse who overthrew Sauron, though they themselves perished in the deed; and Isildur Elendil's son cut the Ring from Sauron's hand and took it for his own.


But this doesn't prove anything. It only says that Gil-Galad and Elendil overthrew (and we now know mortally wounded and so killed) and Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron's hand. Here's another quote, however:

Quote:
I [Elrond] beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father's sword, and took it for his own.'


Note particularly this part: "But sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand..." This says that Sauron was mortally wounded (overthrown) BEFORE Isildur cut the Ring from his hand. At least that is how I see it. I think if it was the other way around, it would be: "But Isildur cut the Ring from his hand, and Sauron himself was overthrown...."
You base your whole argument on the fact that "overthrow" is equal to "mortally wound", but last time i checked, 'overthrow' didn't mean 'mortally wound' but just 'defeat'. Defeat doesn't necessarily mean death. I can overthrow someone in a game of chess, without decapitating my adversary, for instance.

Read this quote again :

" But Isildur refused this counsel, saying: 'This i will have as were-gild for my father's death, and my brother's. Was it not i that dealt the Enemy his death-blow?' And the Ring that he held seemed to him exceedingly fair to look on; and he would not suffer it to be destroyed. Taking it therefore he returned at first to Minas Anor, and there planted the White Tree in memory of his brother Anarion. "

Guess what : Isildur delivered the death-blow, and thus mortally wounded Sauron!