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I was going through the characters in Lord of the Rings, and I came to Faramir, and it made me think. In your all's opinion, what was the significance of Faramir, and how would Middle Earth be different if he did not exist?
I love Faramir threads........

If he didn't exist? Pah! No point in reading the book....... Smile Smilie I jest.

Faramir, to me, was a unique character in that he was able to resist the Ring. He was wise, brave, strong, trustworthy, honest, fair, a great leader, loved by his men but he had no ego as such. He wanted what was best for his people rather than himself. He listened, he learned, he respected and loved his father and brother........ the guy was perfect!!!

So, what if he didn't exist? Who would lead the armies of Minis Tirith after Boromir's death? Who would have commanded the men who met Frodo? No one else would have resisted the Ring so what would have happened there? Would some Gondorion officer have it, would it have been taken to Denethor, would the new owner have run off to Osgiliath and been killed, the ring taken.....

Without Faramir's near death experience at the hands of his father there would have been no distraction for Gandalf...... he would have gone to the battle outside to help and how would that have changed the outcome if at all. Would Theoden have died, would Eowyn have killed the WitchKing?Everybody was in the right place at the right time - but throw a spanner (Gandalf) in the works and what happens......

I expect there are other examples..... I wait with worms on my tongue.....


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I wait with worms on my tongue.....
Eww!! Chicken Smilie

Yes Faramir resisted the Ring, but I am convinced he would have fallen for it too if he had traded places with Boromir. Boromir had it practically within arms reach for weeks and months wandering in the mountains and in mines swarming with enemies. Faramir had it close for a 'little' while with his men around, relativly safe, and he knew it had killed his brother. If Boromir had let the hobbits go is another thing, maybe not. Probably not. He would have been too filled with sorrow and guilt for letting his younger brother go to Rivendell instead of going himself. Maybe bringing them with him to make sure they told the truth, hoping they weren't.

Boromir is the oldest, responsible and protecting, a leader. Faramir is the youngest, more gentle, thoughtfull and artistic. Like it often is with sibling.

If Faramir hadn't excisted... maybe Frodo and Sam wouldn't have met any men at all. There is always a brave man to lead, but the news about Boromir wouldn't have hit so hard, no one would have dreamt of Boromirs death and would probably think it was all a trick and bring them in for questioning. Denethor wouldn't be gentle, wanting to know the truth about his only son. There would be no one for Boromir to love and to teach and take care off. Maybe Boromir would have been harder inside, maybe the hobbits wouldn't have liked him at all. Maybe he wouldn't be open hearthed enough to receive the dream. Denethor wouldn't have a son who reminded him so much of his dead wife. All the pressure would be on Boromir to be the perfect son, no Faramir to take a lot of the heath.
Hmm. Nice question i-aran. You've made think. But I can't really think of anything, because anything could have happened. There are so many possibilities. Don't you think it's another one of those "catastrophe theory" thingys? I mean, what would have happened if.. It's more like asking what would have happened if LOTR had been written by someone other than JRRT.
Another thought about Faramir...without him Eowyn would have not received such lovely comfort at the House of Healing! Talk about a loss....hmmmm.
Faramir was very important for the story, though Tolkien himself said he appeared from nowhere into the story and kinda went with it. He was the only Man, besides Aragorn, to resist the Ring's temptation; that made him special.
Yeah. He is special. And don't you think it was a surprise to see the brother of Boromir, so unlike him, with such different interests, yet they got on so well and didn't feud or anything like that?
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Yeah. He is special. And don't you think it was a surprise to see the brother of Boromir, so unlike him, with such different interests, yet they got on so well and didn't feud or anything like that?


They loved each other too much to have petty fights... Boromir always watched over his little brother and stood up for him in front of Denethor; he never liked the fact that Faramir was put aside by their father!
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... yet they got on so well and didn't feud or anything like that?
When there are a few years separating siblings they seldom fight, though the younger often dampens the romantic interests of the elder, unless the bribe is large enough. 'Go play in the street, kid!'
Ok! A Faramir thread, you can't have enough of those.

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Amarie wrote:
He would have been too filled with sorrow and guilt for letting his younger brother go to Rivendell instead of going himself.


I disagree. Boromir was a very very proud man, he would never ever let his younger brother go to Rivendell and yeah, I am quite certain if Faramir went, the outcome would have been completely different. Just think on it. What would have happened if Faramir went. Boromir, proud, impulsive, rash in deeds and words. Faramir, the strategist, the thinker, considerate. And like his father he could read people. Boromir could not.

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Amarie wrote:
Boromir is the oldest, responsible and protecting, a leader. Faramir is the youngest, more gentle, thoughtfull and artistic. Like it often is with sibling.


I wonder why you get the impression that Boromir is responsible? The elders, yes and leader, yes. But responsible? I don't know. I see Faramir as a leader as well, but different. He has a different way. He was the Captain of the Ithilien Ranger for years and he managed to hold ground there for a long time.

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Amarie wrote:
Denethor wouldn't have a son who reminded him so much of his dead wife. All the pressure would be on Boromir to be the perfect son, no Faramir to take a lot of the heath.


Well what about Imrahil then? Denethor must have thought many times that he was not around. I think that Faramir and Denethor were more alike then you think. Boromir was more easy to shape by Denethor. Faramir knew most of the times what his father was meaning of doing, so I guessed that must have caused many many conflicts. Boromir followed orders, Faramir questioned them...

Oh the importance of Faramir. He is the orphan of war and he manages with hope and love to arise above it. That if you are strong and willing enough and keep hope you can manage.

That is my 2 eurocents on Faramir Smile Smilie
You are right, Rhapsody-often times people who are a lot alike can butt heads over issues; the classic power struggle. Case-in-point:my husband and I(off topic, I suppose).
However; Faramir was not so alike to Denenthor to not be able to resist the influence of evil-here is why I feel this:

1.Denethor's use of the Palantir only allowed Sauron to manipulate his mind and purposes, because Denethor himself had no will against it-his thoughts naturally turned to darkness. Faramir, on the other hand, was strong-willed enough to resist many encounters with evil, including the Ring of Power, because he was one that did not easily despair. His values and integrity as a man guided him to resist, whereas Denethor's apparent self-worship did not facilitate this, but instead brought him to do that which is in his own best interest, not of the greater good.
2.Another way that the two are not alike is in the fact that unlike Faramir, Denethor truly was convinced that the throne of Gondor was rightfully his. He had no intention of relinquishing power to some young punk that came from nowhere(Aragorn). Faramir actually welcomed the arrival of the true king-had he been a selfish person like Denethor, he would have been much more likely to fight against the king's reinstatement, having recently gained the right to "Next in Line" after Boromir died. Another credit to Faramir's unblemished character!
The two, no matter how much alike in personality, made very different choices and took very different paths, affecting the ultimate outcome of the whole story. Had Faramir not existed, the story would never have held the Good Vs. Evil dynamic so well.

Amarie, great theory on why Denethor resented Faramir(because he reminded him of his dead wife)-I agree wholly because that would be a very "typical"(for lack of a better word)emotional reaction for a newly-widowed Leader-figure, to resent the more artful&sensitive brother, as you say.

Excellent topic!
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Laurelindhe writes
1.Denethor's use of the Palantir only allowed Sauron to manipulate his mind and purposes, because Denethor himself had no will against it-his thoughts naturally turned to darkness. Faramir, on the other hand, was strong-willed enough to resist many encounters with evil, including the Ring of Power, because he was one that did not easily despair. His values and integrity as a man guided him to resist, whereas Denethor's apparent self-worship did not facilitate this, but instead brought him to do that which is in his own best interest, not of the greater good.


I think, what people always seem to overlook, that Denethor was a very conflicted man. Most people would like to see him as the so easily to be classified bad man, but in fact, if you look at him closely... he was not. His mind got corrupted, slowly, by Sauron. He thought that he was strong enough to master the palantir and bend what he saw to his own will. He always could, except with Faramir. He found his match with Faramir. It must have frustrated the hell out of him that besides loosing control over Gondor (which sauron all of the time shown him), that his eldest son is off to Rivendell for a council, his youngest son did his own thing, commanded the Ithilien scouts. I am just wondering if Faramir looked alike his mother in looks... or in reasoning..

I don't see Denethor as a man that self-worships him, but as a man, victim of Sauron that looses it all. He lost Finduilas to the growing darkness (she greatly feared the growing Shadow in Mordor across the Anduin)... he lost his eldest son to Anduin, he is loosing control over Gondor and Gondor is thusly weakened that after he sees his youngest son slain that he falls for the utter despair. In these modern times we would say that Denethor was fighting a depression and lost..

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2.Another way that the two are not alike is in the fact that unlike Faramir, Denethor truly was convinced that the throne of Gondor was rightfully his. He had no intention of relinquishing power to some young punk that came from nowhere(Aragorn).


What could have a fancy king from a prophecy done? He needed knights, rangers, men to battle Mordor. What support can you find in a prophecy when all you need is manpower to fight? If I was a warlord I might have reacted the same. Give me manpower and goods to defend my country. I have no use for stories and lore.

I wonder if Faramir knew *all* the facts, so also about the Palantir and what was shown in it if he was that strong-willed. Or was he tempted as well to control it, having the power. An interesting thought don't you think? Please don't get me wrong: I don't like Denethor that much and what he did... in excusable, but in the end he redeemed himself a bit.
One thing I've noticed about the ppl that like the character Faramir: there are the I love the whole Steward family ppl, there are the I love Faramir and only Faramir ppl, and there are the alternating I love Faramir and Boromir but not Denethor, and I love Faramir and Denethor is O.K. but Boromir is the faliure ppl. I'm sorry to generalize but I think there is some truth in that. Wiggle Smilie

Warning:This first segment is about Faramir. When you start reading into the Denethor part, I blabber on and on about Denthor. So feel free to ignore the long Denethor theory (or read it if you like) and read the segment about Faramir. Then continue with your posts. SOOOORRRR-EEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

I think the significance of Faramir is to bring some hope into a seeminly evil world. Despite the evil that appears to consume everyone around him he remains pure and faithful to his cause. In a way he can e seen as a redeemer for man-kind. Except for Aragorn, all the men in the story are kind of disappointments to Frodo. Boromir (don't take this wrong though......I love Boromir Wink Smilie ) tries to steal the Ring from Frodo, Denethor (again I pity poor Denethor so DON"T go pitting me in with the "i hate Denethor" clubs. Just kiddin. Big Laugh Smilie ) wants to use the Ring for Gondor, and Theoden has susepted to the evil of Sauruman (I love Theody too so.....yeah sorry). I think that Frodo begins to think what the rest of the races are thinking: Men are weak, and self-centered. You can't trust them darn tall people! Elk Grinning Smilie Just a joke. Really though, Faramir proves that there are good men in Middle Earth. However men that are desperate tend to do stupid things and make certain decisions that make them look like all they care about is themselves. Faramir kept the big picture in mind and that may have helped him realize that everyone was gonna get past this terrible ordeal.
If Faramir wasn't in the story......O THE HORROR!!!!!! dun dun dun! *cue evil music*
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Maybe Boromir would have been harder inside, maybe the hobbits wouldn't have liked him at all. Maybe he wouldn't be open hearthed enough to receive the dream.

I think for the most part that's about right. But it's really hard to say. If Faramir hadn't been born, his mother might have died later or earlier than she actually did. Who knows? Maybe Faramir kept her alive for a little while longer.......or killed her off even quicker. SO many things would be different and so many things would have to be taken into account. Gandalf definately wouldn't have visited as much!
Oh and one theory on why Denethor hated Faramir so much: Maybe instead of Faramir reminding Denethor of his dead wife, maybe Faramir reminded Denethor of himself. Something that is apparent to me about Denthor is his own self-loathing. Self-loathing can be very distructive and it may be one of the reasons Denethor turned out the way that he did. He always seemed to think that everyone liked someone else better than they liked him. Take Aragorn for instance: part of the reason Denethor hated him was definately because Aragorn was going to take his throne. The other reason I believe was because he thought that Aragorn was way better than him. He was the more popular one, that's for sure. Perhaps he thought that if he forced himself onto the throne, the people would have no say-so and they would forget about Aragorn. Denethor worried about being popular, too. I think when he saw little Faramir in the corner reading a book or studying he thougt to himself: "How pathetic. Why can't he DO anything?" Those are the kind of thoughts he may ahve had about himself when he was younger. Then he saw Boromir, the more popular son and thought "That's the kind of guy I would have like to have been," and tried to relive his life through Boromir. Correct his (Denethor's) wrongs and push Boromir into the life that Denethor wanted.
Wow......I spent that whole thread talking about Denethor and this is a Faramir thread! AGGHHH! Ha Ha Ha Smilie
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Acheron writes:
I think the significance of Faramir is to bring some hope into a seeminly evil world. Despite the evil that appears to consume everyone around him he remains pure and faithful to his cause. In a way he can e seen as a redeemer for man-kind.


Well said, I agree.

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Really though, Faramir proves that there are good men in Middle Earth. However men that are desperate tend to do stupid things and make certain decisions that make them look like all they care about is themselves. Faramir kept the big picture in mind and that may have helped him realize that everyone was gonna get past this terrible ordeal.


And that makes men different from elves. Their life span is shorter so they make the best out of it while it lasts. The elves are different, but that is a different discussion.

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If Faramir wasn't in the story......O THE HORROR!!!!!! dun dun dun! *cue evil music*


*gasps* Then we still would have Eomer Smile Smilie

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Maybe Boromir would have been harder inside, maybe the hobbits wouldn't have liked him at all. Maybe he wouldn't be open hearthed enough to receive the dream.


I think for the most part that's about right. But it's really hard to say. If Faramir hadn't been born, his mother might have died later or earlier than she actually did. Who knows? Maybe Faramir kept her alive for a little while longer.......or killed her off even quicker. SO many things would be different and so many things would have to be taken into account. Gandalf definately wouldn't have visited as much!


I have seen this one coming by often. Where exactly has Tolkien stated that Finduilas died of giving birth to Faramir (or from the side effects from it)? I just checked letters of Tolkien.. nothing there. Please point me the way to where it is said or stated.

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Oh and one theory on why Denethor hated Faramir so much: Maybe instead of Faramir reminding Denethor of his dead wife, maybe Faramir reminded Denethor of himself. Something that is apparent to me about Denthor is his own self-loathing. Self-loathing can be very distructive and it may be one of the reasons Denethor turned out the way that he did. He always seemed to think that everyone liked someone else better than they liked him.


I just have read some of Tolkiens letters and he states the same.

Denethor was tainted with mere politics: Hence his failure, and his mistrust of Faramir. It had become for him a prime motive to preserve the polity of Gondor, as it was, against another potentate, who had made himself stronger and was to be feared and opposed for that reason rather than because he was ruthless and wicked. Denethor despised lesser men, and one may be sure did not distinguish between the orcs and the allies of Mordor. If he had survived as victor, even without use of the Ring, he would have taken a long stride towards becoming himself a tyrant, and the terms and treatment he accorded to the deluded peoples of east and south would have been cruel and vengeful.

- The letters of Tolkien 183.

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Take Aragorn for instance: part of the reason Denethor hated him was definately because Aragorn was going to take his throne. The other reason I believe was because he thought that Aragorn was way better than him. He was the more popular one, that's for sure. Perhaps he thought that if he forced himself onto the throne, the people would have no say-so and they would forget about Aragorn.


I am not sure about that. Aragorn and Denethor go way back. Aragorn served as Thorongil for Denethor's father. Did you ever consider the following? Denethor is one of the Southern Dunedain, Aragorn is from the Nothern Dunedain. Gondor used to be only governed by Dunedain of the South, so that might have been a factor as well. A Dunedain from the North not being seen and not being supported at all in Gondor. That is why Aragorn knew he had to reunited both Kingdoms and claim his heritage at least from the North.

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Denethor worried about being popular, too. I think when he saw little Faramir in the corner reading a book or studying he thougt to himself: "How pathetic. Why can't he DO anything?" Those are the kind of thoughts he may ahve had about himself when he was younger. Then he saw Boromir, the more popular son and thought "That's the kind of guy I would have like to have been," and tried to relive his life through Boromir. Correct his (Denethor's) wrongs and push Boromir into the life that Denethor wanted.


Boromir could be easily moulded to his liking, just as his father did to him. Faramir on the other hand could not. That might have caused some friction as well.
It's true that Tolkien never says that Findulas died because of Faramir. It is true however, that she died somewhere around 5 years after he was born. No one really knows what Findulas was like of how she treated her kids so its hard to say whether she liked Faramir at all. It's possible that she liked Boromir better like Denethor did. But that would be awfully depressing for poor Faramir. Very Sad Smilie I think that Finduals died more than anything, from being homesick. It never says that much about her but I get the feeling that Denethor wasn't at home very much, and she felt kind of lonely in such a cold, mountainous area. Dol Amoroth has to be a little bit more uplifting than Gondor during the reign of Denethor. Just a thought. But yeah like I said nothing I've ever read in LOTR says that Findulas died because of Faramir. She just died around that time. So without Faramir being born, the question that begins ot arise is: what would have happened to the Steward family? does Findulas live longer? Does she live shorter? Does Boromir turn out to be more of a softy than we thought? Does Denethor die earlier because Boromir drives him nuts?!?! It's all so hard to tell! Jumping Flame Smilie
i read in Letters that the charecter (at least in LotR) that Tolkien was most like was Faramir. yes, thats all im going to write. Besides this.
Boromir was Denethors son; Faramir was Gandalfs, and that made all the difference. Had Faramir not followed at Gandalfs heels from his youth he would likely have been much like Boromir (in many ways a younger Denethor) including the fall to the Rings power. Gandalf taught him (among other thngs) the humility utterly lacking in Denethor and Boromir, without which the transition would have been much less smooth. In the absence of Faramir there would have been no one with equal (or near equal) status to Boromir but influenced by Gandalf, and thus no opposition of significance within Gondor itself to the madness of Denethor. We would expect a lesser captain to have the same initial reaction to the Ring as Faramir, without the caution and faith instilled by Gandalf.
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In the absence of Faramir there would have been no one with equal (or near equal) status to Boromir but influenced by Gandalf, and thus no opposition of significance within Gondor itself to the madness of Denethor.

Denethor wasn't mad yet when Boromir was still alive. He only became mad after Faramir's death.

The way i see it, living under the threat of Mordor for his entire life, later on using the palantir and seeing the huge armies Sauron was assembling (not to mention, Sauron made this armies appear a more huge in the Palantir through deception ), he thought the only chance to defeat Sauron was using the One Ring against him - that's the reason, i believe, he allowed Boromir to go to Rivendell. Denethor probably had a vision of his son becoming the next King of Gondor.

However, after Boromir's death, and after the loss of the Ring, he became desperate. Then, when his son apparently was dying, he lost all hope and became the nutter who is portrayed so nicely in the flicks (ha ha).

If Faramir had been more like Boromir, then the Ring would've been taken to Minas Tirith, which would have been catastrophical.

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Boromir was Denethors son; Faramir was Gandalfs, and that made all the difference. Had Faramir not followed at Gandalfs heels from his youth he would likely have been much like Boromir (in many ways a younger Denethor) including the fall to the Rings power.

In my opinion, it's not so that Faramir's character was formed by Gandalf : Gandalf only came to Minas Tirith a few times, like Faramir mentions in TTT, and during this times Faramir was very eager to ask him questions and learn things from him, because this was already in his character from birth.

I think therefor it's a bit too strong to suggest that Faramir is Gandalf's son. I think Faramir's character is equal to that of Denethor : both very wise and highly intelligent, but without the ambition and ruthlessness : those traits were softened by his mother Finduilas, who was related to Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth (she's mentioned as his sister somewhere) and hence from a very noble and wise line, perhaps even a line with Elven blood.

If Faramir was a FŽanorian, he would perhaps be a Maedhros or a Maglor, whilst Boromir'd be a Caranthir or a Celegorm.

Speaking of Boromir, he is completely different than Denethor : not wise, only interested in sword fighting and the great military history of Gondor. Boromir's like the reincarnation of King Ešrnur. But JRRT mentions in the appendices of LOTR that the reason why Denethor's favourite son was Boromir is because Boromir was so different than his father : i reckon his father saw in Boromir someone capable to revive the splendour of Gondor single handedly and perhaps became the new King.

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I think that Finduals died more than anything, from being homesick. It never says that much about her but I get the feeling that Denethor wasn't at home very much, and she felt kind of lonely in such a cold, mountainous area.

It's mentioned in the appendices of LOTR that Finduilas died because she was horrified to live under the threat of Mordor the whole time. Also the fact that she had to live in the cold fortress that Minas Tirith was, which she wasn't used to because she came from Dol Amroth, together with the fact that Denethor changed so much due to using the Palantir - both in looks and character - was a contributing factor to her early death.
i dont see Faramir as Gandalfs son at all, Gandalf would have had to be in Minas Tirith an awful lot to influence a person to that extent, rather i believe its a combination of reasons why the two brothers were so different, the influence of Gandalf, i also think by a matter of chance the blood of Numenor flowed alot stronger in Faramir than in Boromir, as well as the fact that as the older brother and heir, Boromir would have been trained from birth to be a captain and leader, primarily a soldier, whereas perhaps Faramir had more spare time to concentrate on other things leading to him being a more well rounded character and person.
I think it was rather more his nature. He grew up in the shadow of his better brother and had to deal with his father's taunts all his life. Yet he endured it all and accepted it, and still he loved his father and brother and helped them with a lot of things. He certainly has a nature for forgiveness and pity, and that probably led to be his strength as well. Elf Winking Smilie
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Denethor's use of the Palantir only allowed Sauron to manipulate his mind and purposes, because Denethor himself had no will against it-his thoughts naturally turned to darkness.

I disagree with this. Sauron was never able to corrupt Denethorís mind through the Palantir. As Denethor was a rightful user of the Palantir as Steward of Gondor, Denethor was able to bend it to his will and see what he wanted to see through it, despite Sauronís attempts at hindering and influencing him. But just like Aragorn, another rightful user of the Palantir, Denethor had to mentally struggle with Sauron each time he looked in the Palantir Ė and if you remember how drained and ashen-faced Aragorn appeared at Helmís Deep after he had used the Palantir, it is easy to understand why Denethor aged prematurely and was an old man when Pippin and Gandalf visited him, even though he was onely one year older than Aragorn : he had been struggling with Sauron through the Palantir for decades. Denethor wasnít a puppet like Saruman because he was a rightful user of the Palantir, unlike Saruman.

Denethorís mind was never Ďdarkí ; using the Palantir for decades only made him believe that in the end Gondor would lose against Sauronís armies and made him desperate, which made him put all his trust in his son Boromir, who he believed was the only man who could save Gondor. After Faramir and Boromir dreamt about Isildurís Bane, Denethor Ėa very intelligent and wise man- immediately understood that Isildurís Bane was the Ring Isildur lost at the Gladden Fields (he had the manuscripts in the Minas Tirith archives) and he iimmediately saw using the One Ring as a chance to save Gondor ; perhaps he even had a vision of Boromir using the One Ring, defeating Sauron and becoming the new King of Gondor.

After Boromirís death and the apparent loss of the One Ring, Denethor again became desperate but probably still hoped that Faramir, although a wizardís pupil, would still manage to get hold of the Ring (Denethor probably saw the breaking of the Fellowship in his Palantir, just like Saruman clearly did) and bring Gondor victory. When this didnít occur, Denethor lost all hope and after Faramir became a victim of the Black Breath, his mind shattered and he completely lost it.

Just like Sauron, in his own way, Denethor was another Ďwise foolí, who only looked at the events from his perspective of Steward of Gondor Ė unlike Elrond and Galadriel he only wanted to save Gondor and henceforth use the Ring, but he never considered the danger the Ring would form for the entirety of Middle-Earth. Denethor comes across as a very biased, narrow-minded, stubborn man in ROTK, but one must not forget this is due to the fact that he spent decades in Minas Tirith, losing his beloved wife due to the threat of Mordor, seeing Sauronís armies grow and grow in and around Mordor, realizing that a military victory is impossible, which left only a miracle to save Gondor. When finally a miracle was possible due to the Ring, and when that miracle went out of his reach, it was completely understandable that he lost all hope as he had seen in his Palantir that it was nearly impossible to enter Mordor as the Morannon and Cirith Ungol were nearly impassable.

Unlike Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn and Faramir, Denethor didnít trust, or believe in the powers of good, be it the Valar, Elbereth, or Illķvatar himself. Unlike them, he didnít accept that fate chose Frodo to carry the Ring into Mordor in order to destroy it. He shouldíve let fate decide.

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Take Aragorn for instance: part of the reason Denethor hated him was definately because Aragorn was going to take his throne. The other reason I believe was because he thought that Aragorn was way better than him. He was the more popular one, that's for sure. Perhaps he thought that if he forced himself onto the throne, the people would have no say-so and they would forget about Aragorn.

Denethor immediately realised that Thorongil was Isildurís Heir, when the latter came into Ecthelion IIís service. I think though, that in the beginning Denethor didnít care about this, as he believed that the people of Gondor would never accept the sole heir of a dead and dishonoured House of bushwhackers as their King.

But then Thorongil became his fatherís finest servant : Thorongilís numerous heroic deeds in service of Gondor (for example the raid on Umbar in which he personally took care of the Captain of Umbar) made him immensely popular amongst the people of Gondor (even though Thorongil always rejected all praise and always remained modest and focused on his quest to defeat Sauron, become King of Gondor and win Arwen Undůmielís love) and even his father Ecthelion II came to love Thorongil like a son Ė this not only made Denethor jealous, but he also realized that due to Thorongilís popularity the people might accept Isildurís Heir as their King. As Thorongil would cross Denethorís future carreer as Steward of Gondor, they became rivals.

Later on, when Thorongilís work in Gondor was finished, Thorongil left as he had work elsewhere and he left Gondor to Denethor, who knew that one day Isildurís Heir would return to claim his kingship. But instead of preparing the people for this return, and considering Isildurís Heir as a stalwart companion in the struggle with Sauron, Denethor kept on regarding him as a rival, and from the very first moment he ascended the Stewardís seat he resented the day that Isildurís Heir would enter the White City and claim his Kingship Ė and that day would come.

But Denethor knew that he himself was no King and that nor he, nor one of his sons, would ever be accepted as a King. Take this quote from TTT:

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'And this I remember of Boromir as a boy, when we together learned the tale of our sires and the history of our city, that always it displeased him that his father was not king. "How many hundreds of years needs it to make a steward a king, if the king returns not? " he asked. "Few years, maybe, in other places of less royalty," my father answered. "In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice."



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Denethor worried about being popular, too. I think when he saw little Faramir in the corner reading a book or studying he thougt to himself: "How pathetic. Why can't he DO anything?" Those are the kind of thoughts he may ahve had about himself when he was younger. Then he saw Boromir, the more popular son and thought "That's the kind of guy I would have like to have been," and tried to relive his life through Boromir. Correct his (Denethor's) wrongs and push Boromir into the life that Denethor wanted.

I think it is beyond any doubt that Denethor loved both his sons greatly, but he just focused more on Boromir than Faramir, he showed his love more to Boromir than Faramir.

I believe one reason for this is because Boromir was so different in character than his father : he wasnít wise and willing to learn (except for the great military history of Gondor), yet he was noble and valiant, and always eager to do great deeds like the great Kings of the past. Faramir was like his father in character : willing to learn and wise, but without his fatherís ambition and ruthlessness when it came to the subject of saving Gondor Ė those traits were softened by his motherís kind spirit.

Faramir was also a courageous man, but unlike his brother he didnít take part in flashy, daring attacks against Mordor (and if he did take part, most of the honour would go to Boromir afterwards), but instead he took part in stealth attacks and guerrilla warfare in IthiliŽn. Faramirís acts were as brave as Boromirís, but never became renowned amongst the ppl and his father because his military exploits had to remain secret (Sauron was always eager to find the base of the Rangers), and besides that Faramir never even mentioned his military feats as he was too modest and resented killing and warfare.

The second and major reason is that Boromir was Denethorís firstborn and hence his heir, and therefor all Denethor's hope was put upon Boromirís shoulders, and he never gave Faramir the attention he gave Boromir. But this doesnít mean he loved Boromir more than Faramir. The amount of affection for both sons was equal, only the amount of attention was not.
I THINK THAT FARAMIR IS THE IDEAL LEADER.HE IS KIND,BRAVE AND SENSITIVE.HE WAS HURT BECAUSE HE WAS ALWAYS CONSIDERED AS THE BLACK SHEEP OF HIS FAMILY.HIS FATHER OBVIOUSLY FAVOURED BOROMIR DUE TO HIS STRONGER CHARACTER AND VIOLENT NATURE.I THINK THAT IT WAS REALY UNFAIR
i agree, in sone ways he is a better man than Boromir, he speaks alot more kindly and more wiser, i went through the chapter that he first appeared in and he spoken as if he was a good loyal friend that you can trust upon in times of need, i enjoy reading about him more so than his brother, can any of you see one of your own friends as Faramir, if you could pick the cast?? i can, good ole Steve!!
Well, Gandalf got around, fer sure, but he spent a fair amount of time in Gondor, as much as anywhere but the Shire and Rivendell, I'd think. He just didn't stay in one place very long, but there's a reason he went there to consult Isildurs journal, he didn't just trip over it on his way through the city. Put it this way: he was there often enough, and Faramir spent enough time with him, that it was that as much as anything that hardened Denethors heart against him, because Denethor had already taken a disliking to Gandalf over that worthys endorsement of Aragorn.

And yes, I think Faramir was unquestionably the better leader, in large part because Virumors comparison of Boromir to Earnur seems fair. He does seem to lack Denethors wisdom almost entirely, but then he was young, and he was Heir to the Steward, as it were. But I'd feel that way even if no one bellowed it at me. ;-p Though I don't really understand the hoopla over CAPS LOCK; ya know, folks, there was a time when everything involving computers was done in CAPS perforce, and it took me a long time to get used to seeing lowercase text onscreen.

Oh, and while I of course agree Sauron never corrupted Denethor, he did largely manipulate him. That's why he dove from Mindolluin as a flaming torch, remember? Oh, right; that never happened.... Elf Rolling Eyes Smilie
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Put it this way: he was there often enough, and Faramir spent enough time with him, that it was that as much as anything that hardened Denethors heart against him, because Denethor had already taken a disliking to Gandalf over that worthys endorsement of Aragorn.

Maybe he was, but still he did not teach Faramir much. But since Gandalf was Gandalf, he needed much to have a lasting impression and impact on ppl :
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'I see that there is some great tale of dread in this.' said Faramir `which perhaps you may tell me in the evening-time. This Mithrandir was, I now guess, more than a lore-master: a great mover of the deeds that are done in our time. Had he been among us to consult concerning the hard words of our dream, he could have made them clear to us without need of messenger. Yet, maybe, he would not have done so, and the journey of Boromir was doomed. Mithrandir never spoke to us of what was to be, nor did he reveal his purposes. He got leave of Denethor, how I do not know, to look at the secrets of our treasury, and I learned a little of him, when he would teach (and that was seldom). Ever he would search and would question us above all else concerning the Great Battle that was fought upon Dagorlad in the beginning of Gondor, when He whom we do not name was overthrown. And he was eager for stories of Isildur, though of him we had less to tell; for nothing certain was ever known among us of his end.'
(chapter 5,TTT)

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Oh, and while I of course agree Sauron never corrupted Denethor, he did largely manipulate him. That's why he dove from Mindolluin as a flaming torch, remember? Oh, right; that never happened.... Elf Rolling Eyes Smilie

No, you're confusing with the Elvish Torch from "The Fantastic Fellowship of the Ring".
Faramir and Aragorn had that rich, beautiful combination of leader, fighter, poet, gentle and understanding. He was wonderful

Grondy dear , that "go play in the street kid", do you tell us this from experience? Where you the briber or the poor kid who had to walk about in the cold and the damp for what seemed fifty years?
Neither, I was the eldest, my sister was four years younger, and my brother was fourteen years younger. I doubt if even he was a problem for her. And I wasn't much into dating until I went to Uni, where younger siblings are never unless you date the locals. Back in those days of yore, we weren't subjected to parlors and usually had access to a personal or family automobile. No, that quote came from the stereotypical radio, TV, and comic strip sitcoms to which I've been subjected.
Only five years separated Boromir and Faramir, and this never was a hindrance for both of them; even though they were so different in character, they loved each other dearly and thought there was no better person in the world than their brother.

Besides which, neither of them had other pressing matters to attend to than courting women; why bother, even, since their father would probably arrange a marriage for them anyway - at least for Boromir, who was more interested in combat affairs than marriage. He'd probably be wedded to a Lady from Dol Amroth, like his father before him.