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Eruwen posted :

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Hi Laurel...well, I think all ringbearers had to leave Middle Earth. As for why they had to leave Middle Earth, I don't know. Can anyone answer that?


Here's what JRRT wrote about it in his Letters :

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Frodo undertook his quest out of love – to save the world he knew from disaster at his own expense, if he could; and also in complete humility, acknowledging that he was wholly inadequate to the task. His real contract was only to do what he could, to try to find a way, and to go as far on the road as his strength of mind and body allowed. He did that. I do not myself see that the breaking of his mind and will under demonic pressure after torment was any more a moral failure than the breaking of his body would have been – say, by being strangled by Gollum, or crushed by a falling rock.
That appears to have been the judgement of Gandalf and Aragorn and of all who learned the full story of his journey. Certainly nothing would be concealed by Frodo! But what Frodo himself felt about the events is quite another matter.
He appears at first to have had no sense of guilt (III 224-5);1 he was restored to sanity and peace. But then he thought that he had given his life in sacrifice: he expected to die very soon. But he did not, and one can observe the disquiet growing in him. Arwen was the first to observe the signs, and gave him her jewel for comfort, and thought of a way of healing him. Slowly he fades 'out of the picture', saying and doing less and less. I think it is clear on reflection to an attentive reader that when his dark times came upon him and he was conscious of being 'wounded by knife sting and tooth and a long burden' (III 268) it was not only nightmare memories of past horrors that afflicted him, but also unreasoning self-reproach: he saw himself and all that he done as a broken failure. 'Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same, for I shall not be the same.' That was actually a temptation out of the Dark, a last flicker of pride: desire to have returned as a 'hero', not content with being a mere instrument of good. And it was mixed with another temptation, blacker and yet (in a sense) more merited, for however that may be explained, he had not in fact cast away the Ring by a voluntary act: he was tempted to regret its destruction, and still to desire it. 'It is gone for ever, and now all is dark and empty', he said as he wakened from his sickness in 1420.
'Alas! there are some wounds that cannot be wholly cured', said Gandalf (III 268) – not in Middle-earth. Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him – if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil.

Bilbo went too. No doubt as a completion of the plan due to Gandalf himself. Gandalf had a very great affection for Bilbo, from the hobbit's childhood onwards. His companionship was really necessary for Frodo's sake – it is difficult to imagine a hobbit, even one who had been through Frodo's experiences, being really happy even in an earthly paradise without a companion of his own kind, and Bilbo was the person that Frodo most loved. (Cf III 252 lines 12 to 21 and 263 lines 1-2.)2 But he also needed and deserved the favour on his own account. He bore still the mark of the Ring that needed to be finally erased : a trace of pride and personal possessiveness. Of course he was old and confused in mind, but it was still a revelation of the 'black mark' when he said in Rivendell (III 265) 'What's become of my ring, Frodo, that you took away?'; and when he was reminded of what had happened, his immediate reply was: 'What a pity! I should have liked to see it again'. As for reward for his pan, it is difficult to feel that his life would be complete without an experience of 'pure Elvishness', and the opportunity of hearing the legends and histories in full the fragments of which had so delighted him.


It's interesting that Shadowfax went with Gandalf into the West as well :

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I think Shadowfax certainly went with Gandalf [across the Sea], though this is not stated. I feel it is better not to state everything (and indeed it is more realistic, since in chronicles and accounts of 'real' history, many facts that some enquirer would like to know are omitted, and the truth has to be discovered or guessed from such evidence as there is). I should argue so: Shadowfax came of a special race (II 126,129, III 346)1 being as it were an Elvish equivalent of ordinary horses : his 'blood' came from 'West over Sea'. It would not be unfitting for him to 'go West'. Gandalf was not 'dying', or going by a special grace to the Western Land, before passing on 'beyond the circles of the world': he was going home, being plainly one of the 'immortals', an angelic emissary of the angelic governors (Valar) of the Earth. He would take or could take what he loved. Gandalf was last seen riding Shadowfax (III 276). He must have ridden to the Havens, and it is inconceivable that he would [have] ridden any beast but Shadowfax; so Shadowfax must have been there. A chronicler winding up a long tale, and for the moment moved principally by the sorrow of those left behind (himself among them!) might omit mention of the horse; but had the great horse also shared in the grief of sundering, he could hardly have been forgotten.

from Letters of JRRT

Vee posted :

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I don't think the Ring Bearers and Wearers *had* to leave ME. The elves were going because they were elves, Gandalf was going home and for Bilbo and Frodo it gave them the chance for peace which they wouldn't otherwise have if they stayed.

Oh, the Elves had to go as well. After the destruction of the Three, there was nothing left for them in Middle-Earth, safe Legolamb and weariness. And had Frodo stayed in ME, he would've died soon.

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But the Elvish weakness is in these terms naturally to regret the past, and to become unwilling to face change: as if a man were to hate a very long book still going on, and wished to settle down in a favourite chapter. Hence they fell in a measure to Sauron's deceits: they desired some 'power' over things as they are (which is quite distinct from an), to make their particular will to preservation effective: to arrest change, and keep things always fresh and fair. The 'Three Rings' were 'unsullied', because this object was in a limited way good, it included the healing of the real damages of malice, as well as the mere arrest of change; and the Elves did not desire to dominate other wills, nor to usurp all the world to their particular pleasure. But with the downfall of 'Power' their little efforts at preserving the past fell to bits. There was nothing more in Middle-earth for them, but weariness. So Elrond and Galadriel depart. Gandalf is a special case. He was not the maker or original holder of the Ring – but it was surrendered to him by Círdan, to assist him in his task. Gandalf was returning, his labour and errand finished, to his home, the land of the Valar.

from Letters of JRRT.

Laurelindhe posted :

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1. The fact that he, in the end, was called to leave again...I know Eru only sent him temporarily, but why? Shouldn't his "new cycle" of life be allowed to play itself out? Is there any information anywhere on why Tolkien chose to have him leave Middle-Earth, rather than allow him to live out his days in the place that was dear to his heart? Couldn't he have been afforded much luxury and comfort and peace at the side of his friend King Elessar in the refurbished Minas Tirith?
2.Gandalf said he had returned naked from where he went "beyond thought and time", where did he descend? Does it ever say how long exactly he roamed throughout Middle-Earth before he was discovered by Treebeard, the two hobbits, and finally Aragorn, Gimli, and Let-go-lass after he came back?
I am sure that these questions have already been answered somewhere, but I am a member of the Talentless Lazybones Guild, after all...

Isn't the cycle of life from the Lion King?

1. well Gandalf's work was done in ME, and so he departed back home. There's also something about this in the previous Tolkien quote :

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Gandalf is a special case. He was not the maker or original holder of the Ring – but it was surrendered to him by Círdan, to assist him in his task. Gandalf was returning, his labour and errand finished, to his home, the land of the Valar.


And in ROTK Gandalf says this, just before Aragorn finds a new sapling of Nimloth :

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'I know it well, dear friend,' said Aragorn; 'but I would still have your counsel.'
'Not for long now,' said Gandalf. 'The Third Age was my age. I was the Enemy of Sauron; and my work is finished. I shall go soon. The burden must lie now upon you and your kindred.'


2. he descended back where he had died, on the mount of Zirak Zigil, Gwaihir then picked him up (being sent by Galadriel) to Lothlorien, where he was clothed in white.

From the timeline included in the appendices of Middle-Earth, i've found that Gandalf the white already spent 14 days back among the living before he joined Aragorn, Gimli and Legolamb in Fangorn Forest : Gandalf was resurrected on 14 february 3019 III (the same day on which Frodo and Sam looked in the Mirror of Galadriel) and jolned Aragorn and Co on 1 March 3019 III.

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'Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done. And naked I lay upon the mountain-top. The tower behind was crumbled into dust, the window gone; the ruined stair was choked with burned and broken stone. I was alone, forgotten, without escape upon the hard horn of the world. There I lay staring upward, while the stars wheeled over, and each day was as long as a life-age of the earth. Faint to my ears came the gathered rumour of all lands: the springing and the dying, the song and the weeping, and the slow everlasting groan of overburdened stone. And so at the last Gwaihir the Windlord found me again, and he took me up and bore me away.

from TTT, chapter "The White Rider"
Thanks for the quote regarding Frodo, Vir. It's a good find. And yes, that's very interesting that Shadowfax may have gone into the West with Gandalf...hmmm...
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Oh, the Elves had to go as well. After the destruction of the Three, there was nothing left for them in Middle-Earth, safe Legolamb and weariness. And had Frodo stayed in ME, he would've died soon.


No, they didn't *have* to. No one stood with a crossbow aimed at their heads. They saw it as the best thing to do and they went. Frodo went to get peace as did Bilbo and the elves went because their time in ME was drawing to a close. But at any time any one of them could have said, "No, I'm staying put - you go on without me." Unlikely though.
Laurelindhe posted:
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Shouldn't his "new cycle" of life be allowed to play itself out?
and Virumor posted:
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Isn't the cycle of life from the Lion King?
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I believe Laurelindhe was still trying to fit Gandalf's resurrection into the eastern philosophical reincarnation pigeon-hole, ignoring the fact that he didn't come back as a new born baby or cockroach even, but as another even more elderly gentleman. Happy Elf Smilie

I don't think even the Elves experienced reincarnation when they were allowed to return, or were sent back to Middle-earth after spending their time in the Halls of Mandos. If when they died, their bodies had been completely destroyed, their bodies couldn't be refurbished. The result was they had to spend their remaining time as spirits; they couldn't be reborn into new bodies. At least that is now my take on it.
I know, Grondy. I said the Lion King thingy in jest. Besides, in the Lion King, it's the "circle of life".

About reincarnation, i haven't found anything about it in JRRT's Letters yet.
I am not trying to "pigeonhole" anything...but it is entertaining to muse on something without wholly believing it. And yes, the "Circle of Life" is from The Lion King, and no, that is not what I was referring to-please forgive my poor American English! Very Big Grin Smilie I have always enjoyed "throwing cogs in the wheel" for the sake of lively conversation-be glad I wasn't throwing anything else! I would just think that after all Gandalf had sacrificed of himself that he would desire far more to stay out the years at least of Aragorn's time in Middle Earth as he had paid a high price for its freedom...after all, he died fighting one of the foes of the Free Peoples before he was sent back. It seems against his character to just say "Well, my work's done here, gotta go home now"after only a few years of him actually enjoying ME, post-war. Again, I am sure some busy little hornets will fly out of their nest that I stirred up in three...two...one...
oh it's been brought!

nah i'm just playing.. i see where you're comming from YOU! and if i was in Gandalf's shoes i'd like to stay and enjoy the happiness of being happy with the good guys who beat the bad guys down. But Gandalf was weird, infact he was so weird that i'd say he wasn't human; him being weird and all...

I'm sure he wouldn't mind staying in middle-earth, but i bet he was looking forward to going home to sip on some wobbly pops with the boys he knew from wayyyy back. Although he may have enjoyed Aragorns presence he really didn't know him for that long, compared the companions he had in Aman.

Ok serious mode time...
About reincarnation.... are we unsure if this exist in tolkien's world? I remember reading somewhere, probably The Silmarillion, a select few of elves whom have been brooding in the halls of Mandos (probably for atleast an Age or 2) were allowed to take form and walk again in Aman, if Manwe, or Mandos (can't remember) deemed it ok.
Just becuase we would have liked to hang around in ME, doesn't mean Gandalf would.

Gandalf had already wandered in ME for some time, what would he do now? He had no purpose anymore. He would be an old man meddeling in affairs he had nothing to do with. Sure he could have given advice to Aragorn, but this was now the age of men and Aragorn needed to learn to stand on his own two feet and rule his people. Besides, an old man who never grow older or died might cause some suspicion.

So that leaves wandering about people who sees nothing but an old man. Remember that very very very few knew who Gandald really was. Lothlorien was fading, Rivendell was fading, their lords and ladies have left. The Shire would do well without him and were under Gondors protection. Sitting around quietly drinking tea and eating food really isn't Gandalfs style.. So that leaves what.. fighting spiders in Mirkwood? What a sad way for Gandalf the White to live. His friends, his home, his real life and his world were across the sea.
Well, if you put it that way, it sounds like it would have been very needless if Gandalf would have tried to stay in ME after his work was done...I just think that a being such as a Maia, who has an eternity to go home to Aman, might spend a nanno-second of his infinite time just reveling in the peace of a place long bereft of it-you know, PARTY!!! Are we sure there is good wine and pipeweed in Aman? Remember, Gandalf had an appreciation of these things! Being that he was in human form, couldn't he have wanted to party a little bit in celebration of his victory???
No, I know very well that he was probably tired of soul by then from the demands of the War and such, I agree that he probably had to go home for his own personal reasons...But it would have been much more "romantic"(not the kind of romance as in intimacy) or sentimental for him to have stayed a bit. That's all...But I agree, I am rambling pointlessly. **Sigh**
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Being that he was in human form, couldn't he have wanted to party a little bit in celebration of his victory???

Oh I am sure Aragorns wedding was quite amusing, and I am sure there were plenty of party activities in Gondor and elsewhere to celebrate Saurons fall. Eowyn and Faramir got married too, as did Sam and his Rosie. Gandalf stayed in Rivendell i guess, and elves just loves to celebrate. It might all be a bit much for the old boy. Wink Smilie

It could be almost like a vacation (he did have fun doing his job). It is fun to see new places, but eventually after a while you just want to come home.
Ok, reading this thread is killing me... so many ideas for a story to write Wink Smilie Amarie you really make it sound like: oooh I want to see that, front row tickets please!!!
Laurelindhe posted :

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Are we sure there is good wine and pipeweed in Aman? Remember, Gandalf had an appreciation of these things! Being that he was in human form, couldn't he have wanted to party a little bit in celebration of his victory???
No, I know very well that he was probably tired of soul by then from the demands of the War and such, I agree that he probably had to go home for his own personal reasons...But it would have been much more "romantic"(not the kind of romance as in intimacy) or sentimental for him to have stayed a bit. That's all...But I agree, I am rambling pointlessly.

I am sure anyone who had lived or been in Valinor for a time, would want no other place to live. I am sure Middle-Earth is hell compared to Valinor, even the Middle-Earth after Sauron's destruction was. We can't imagine what Paradise is. Gandalf/Olorin can. Valinor has the best wines and food in Eä, i bet. No pipeweed, but Gandalf wouldn't need it over there, as he'd probably relinquish his body again and go back to the spirit(ed) days.

I am sure that he longed to go home, but in his wisdom he was able to set these feelings aside and not return before everything he learnt to care for in Middle-Earth, was safe :

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Have I not felt it? Even now my heart desires to test my will upon it, to see if I could not wrench it from him and turn it where I would-to look across the wide seas of water and of time to Tirion the Fair, and perceive the unimaginable hand and mind of Fëanor at their work, while both the White Tree and the Golden were in flower!' He sighed and fell silent.


Futhermore, Gandalf said in ROTK :

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'I know it well, dear friend,' said Aragorn; 'but I would still have your counsel.'
'Not for long now,' said Gandalf. 'The Third Age was my age. I was the Enemy of Sauron; and my work is finished. I shall go soon. The burden must lie now upon you and your kindred.'


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Do you not yet understand? My time is over: it is no longer my task to set things to rights, nor to help folk to do so. And as for you, my dear friends, you will need no help. You are grown up now. Grown indeed very high; among the great you are, and I have no longer any fear at all for any of you.
'But if you would know, I am turning aside soon. I am going to have a long talk with Bombadil: such a talk as I have not had in all my time. He is a moss-gatherer, and I have been a stone doomed to rolling. But my rolling days are ending, and now we shall have much to say to one another.'

Technically it would be possible for Gandalf to "gather moss" in Middle-Earth, like Bombadil, but he didn't because he had a better home.

Turin posted :

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About reincarnation.... are we unsure if this exist in tolkien's world? I remember reading somewhere, probably The Silmarillion, a select few of elves whom have been brooding in the halls of Mandos (probably for atleast an Age or 2) were allowed to take form and walk again in Aman, if Manwe, or Mandos (can't remember) deemed it ok.

The theological definition of reincarnation is the same soul being reborn in a different form : be it animal, human, rock or whatever. But i don't mind this word being applied here at all. It's mentioned in the Silmarillion that Finrod walks again with his father, but i think that means that Finrod just gets a new body and walks out the Halls of Mandos... i don't think he gets reborn again, but we can call it reincarnation.

JRRT states in his Letters that reincarnation of mortals is impossible because they pass out of Time :

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Arwen is not a 're-incarnation' of Lúthien (that in the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Lúthien has died like a mortal and left the world of time) but a descendant very like her in looks, character, and fate.
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...I just think that a being such as a Maia, who has an eternity to go home to Aman, might spend a nanno-second of his infinite time just reveling in the peace of a place long bereft of it-you know, PARTY!!!
King Elessar was crowned on 01 May 3019 T.A. and Gandalf had the next 29 months to travel about: winding up loose ends, making his goodbyes, and making a few good buys. Like laying in a large supply of pipeweed for Frodo, Bilbo, and more importantly for himself into the hold of the white ship in which the Ringbearers would travel. Maybe he even included some rootstock of galenas and a few kegs of Butterbur's Finest. Party On!!! Alcoholic Smilie
I think he spent those 29 months having his really long chat with Tom Bombadil instead of ending his labours in Middle-Earth on the wrong foot. Eru probably chastised Gandalf the Grey for his bad form due to huge amounts of lembas and pipeweed, which was the cause of his inability to avoid the Balrog's whip. Therefor, Gandalf the White became the ascetic and draconian leader we all love so much. Or maybe it was just him using a pipeweed patch.

As Gandalf himself said, his rolling days were over ("Whizzy was a rolling stone - wherever he hung his hat was his home"). Time to find himself a nice Maia wife, buy a nice apartment in Valmar and enjoy retirement, at least until Dagor Dagorath -- Tolkien's version of Ragnarok. No other Ainu could tell him more about how to do that than Bombadil.

I doubt whether Olorin would use his Gandalf costume much once he came back home in Valinor; perhaps only when visiting his old hobbit friends (because that's how they know Olorin, after all. We can't make hobbitses uncomfortable, certainly when one of them is of decrepit age, and the other one on the brink of totally falling apart). But apart from that, i think he'd be mostly in spirit-form, safe to visit his old Eldar friends in Tirion : then he would take an Elvish form.

Gandalf the Grey/White who was sent to Middle-Earth, is a Maia in human form, hence the Maia has to eat, drink, and perform any other normal human actions to keep his body alive. That's probably how he discovered pipe-weed (the cause of his lung cancer - although he blamed it on labouring in the Mines of Moria for too long).

But back in Valinor, he'd need no food or water anymore, as an eternal spirit. Let alone pipeweed. Besides, there's probably already galenas in Valinor, only in a more pure, holy and unmarred form.

Actually, i can imagine Olorin - in his Gandalf costume and smoking pipeweed - visiting Bilbo and Frodo on Tol Eresseä or wherever the hobbits would end up, when Frodo and Bilbo suddenly cry out : "Oh just quit it, Gandalf!!! Or should we say : 'Olorin'. We know all of your secrets, pal! Just be fair with us for once, OK?".

I think when dealing with Gandalf, we usually forget he is of the race of Ainur, instead of just "a Wizard".
I think that stems from his care and benevolence to the different races. If he had been a tad less likable then it would have been easier to keep in mind that he was a very powerful celestial being. We humans, post-Paganism, tend to view deities as distant and stern, not the lovable old man that Gandalf embodied. And our instinct to mentally classify him as "human" can't be helped, because we identify best with things that are most like us. I agree, Virumor, the hobbitses would have wet themselves if they had seen Olorin in his true Maia form!
Not only was Gandalf (aka Olorin) a Maia but according to the Silmarillion he was the wisest of the Maiar. Tolkien set the scene there for Gandalf's eventual mission.

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..for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Iluvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.


What a guy! He should have been the leader of the Istari from the start. But then, not such a good plotline...
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He should have been the leader of the Istari from the start. But then, not such a good plotline...

I'm not so sure about that. The fact that he was so humble and didn't want to go to ME, was the reason why Manwë sent him, and was the major reason why he was the only Istari we know of, who did not fail (as far as we know, as we have no information about Alatar and Pallando).

Maybe the reason why for instance Curumo failed, is that he couldn't cope with the emotions that come with a body? The Maia Curumo had probably always been ambitious, but he wasn't evil from the start. Even Sauron wasn't. Maybe the feelings of greed, envy, etc. that inevitably come with a body (which was part of the test) was too high for Curumo when he became Saruman? That could be the reason why he longed to make his own One Ring when he studied the great Rings.

Aulë should've kept his Maiar a bit closer to him, i guess. "Sauron : sit!!! Curumo : fetch!!!".

But of course, the Dark Side of the Force is tempting.

Aiwendil wasn't a bad guy at all, he just loved nature so much - as a disciple of Yavanna - that he lost himself completely.
Virumor posted
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It's interesting that Shadowfax went with Gandalf into the West as well :


As well as the quote you gave from Tolkien's letters to support this I have found something in HOME which also states that Shadowfax went with Gandalf. According to Christopher Tolkien TLOTR was not meant to end where it does and there should have been an Epilogue of which Tolkien wrote two versions . The second version, which was the one he intended to be used, says:

(Sam)
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Shadowfax went in the White Ship with Gandalf, of course. I saw that myself.

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According to Christopher Tolkien TLOTR was not meant to end where it does and there should have been an Epilogue of which Tolkien wrote two versions . The second version, which was the one he intended to be used, says: ...
I think that is so much hog-wash: J.R.R.Tolkien had control over the actual ending of the published LotR and had he intended a diferent ending, that is what would have been published. Of course he may have changed his mind after it was published; but I doubt that, for by then he was back to working his over-loaded professorship and trying to find time to complete The Silmarillion. Christopher must have been mistaken. or may have been misread. Elf Winking Smilie
JRRT only started a sequel to LOTR, but soon abandoned the idea.

from Letters :

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I have written nothing beyond the first few years of the Fourth Age. (Except the beginning of a tale supposed to refer to the end of the reign of Eldaron about 100 years after the death of Aragorn. Then I of course discovered that the King's Peace would contain no tales worth recounting; and his wars would have little interest after the overthrow of Sauron; but that almost certainly a restlessness would appear about then, owing to the (it seems) inevitable boredom of Men with the good: there would be secret societies practising dark cults, and 'orc-cults' among adolescents.)


I also doubt whether JRRT would ever write an epilogue to LOTR without publishing it immediately or at least putting it in the appendices later on.
Tolkien's reason (in HOME but refers to Letters)

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An epilogue giving a further glimpse (though of a rather exceptional family) has been so universally condemned that I shall not insert it. One must stop somewhere.
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I have found something in HOME which also states that Shadowfax went with Gandalf.

Sam: "Shadowfax went in the White Ship with Gandalf, of course. I saw that myself."

Well, what if Shadowfax was a maia too in the shape of a horse? I mean that would explain why only Gandlaf could control it (it would sense Gandalf to be another maia), and also why it had exceptional qualities of speed, looks, stamina etc. And then if he was a Maia, he was also allowed to go on the ship to the West.

I don't know...just a thought of mine!
it's a new prespective on things... but i thought i recall reading somewhere that shadowfax was a special breed of horse that came from the west, not actually a maia itself. I think Shadowfax is basically like that hound in beren and luthien, can't remember name off hand... you get the drift?
Could be! Could be, yes! Its just a thought. "Special" breed. That too "From the west"! Hmmm....

Huran was the hound's name though. (Or atleast that's what I remember after 3 years!)
Shadowfax and Huan the Hound were of a 'special breed'.

Shadowfax

Appendix A -
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These were the mearas, who would bear no one but the King of the Mark or his sons, until the time of Shadowfax. Men said of them that Bema (whom the Eldar call Orome) must have brought their sire from West over the Sea
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Both animals understood the speech of Men and Elves and Huan was even granted the ability to speak but only 3 times.
Letters -
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Shadowfax came of a special race being as it were an Elvish equivalent of ordinary horses: his 'blood' came from 'West over Sea.


And of Huan, it says in the Silmarillion -
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Now the chief of the wolfhounds that followed Celegorm was named Huan. He was not born in Middle-earth, but came from the Blessed Realm; for Orome had given him to Celegorm long ago in Valinor, and there he had followed the horn of his master, before evil came. Huan followed Celegorm into exile, and was faithful; and thus he too came under the doom of woe set upon the Noldor, and it ws decreed that he should meet death, but not until he encountered the mightiest wolf that would ever walk the world.
Well Huan could also speak, couldn't he? Plus the fact that some Maiar took the form of animals, like the Eagles, and the Eagles can speak as well, makes this idea possible. Huan could indeed be a Maia.

I only doubt whether Oromë would grant Celegorm possession of a Maia, regardless the form that Maia took.

Saying that however, i think the mearas were just animals and nothing more. Very special animals, as they came from Valinor, but still animals.
From the quotes I gave I think neither Huan nor Shadowfax could be maiar. They are animals, although special ones. Huan came from the Blessed Realm but Shadowfax didn't. He was descended from horses which did.

The ability to speak did not make Huan a Maia. It was a 'gift' and he could only speak three times. Shadowfax couldn't speak but he understood speech.
There's nothing that indicates it's impossible that Huan isn't a Maia.
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They are animals, although special ones. Huan came from the Blessed Realm

Oh well, look at it this way....Gandalf was a man, but he was a special one. He came from the Blessed Realm. Moreover, he was a maia. So why can't Huan be one? Or even Shadowfax or his sires or whoever?

I think the lack of anything connecting these animals with being maiar is in itself confirmation that they are not.

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I only doubt whether Oromë would grant Celegorm possession of a Maia, regardless the form that Maia took.


Exactly. No Maia would be 'enslaved' in such a way unless there were a story behind it and if that were so then Tolkien would have mentioned it somewhere. Neither Huan nor Shadowfax were Maia.

Of course, when dealing with fiction and fantasy, all things ARE possible. But in this case it is clear by what is said and what is not that they are animals, albeit special.

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I think the lack of anything connecting these animals with being maiar is in itself confirmation that they are not.

It's not. JRRT just didn't wish to reveal anything, that's all.

I don't believe in it either, but i still think it is possible, although unlikely.

I hate gettin logged out all the time.
The danger with that way of thinking is that unless Tolkien expressly said something was or wasn't one can put one's own ideas into just about any part of his writings. Maybe Legolas did skateboard down the steps at Helm's Deep, maybe the elves were there but Tolkien just didn't mention them, maybe maybe maybe.....

Yup, that's all possible as well. PJ was right all along! Very Big Grin Smilie

Of course one can put one's own ideas into the story. That's one of the great things of LOTR : JRRT didn't reveal every single detail, so that the readers have to think about certain things for themselves and form their own viewpoints.

It's just that for some ideas there's more evidence than others, and for other ideas there is no evidence (like the elves at helm's deep). I fail to see your point.

There'll always be the possibility that Huan is a lesser Maia in the form of an animal. There were a whole lot of Maiar; the ones who are named by JRRT are the most notable and powerful ones, but there are also far lesser Maiar who could be content with being an animal - who knows.

This whole argument is off-topic. Who started this thing anyway.
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It's just that for some ideas there's more evidence than others, and for other ideas there is no evidence (like the elves at helm's deep). I fail to see your point.


That is my point. There is no evidence that Huan or Shadowfax are Maiar. There isn't the merest hint of it. There is evidence against it in what Tolkien has said about them. The leap from Huan as the Hound of Valinor to being a Maia is much the same as PJ adding his own interpretations in the film.
agreed.
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This whole argument is off-topic. Who started this thing anyway.

I did and I'm sorry about it! I didn't realise we would be having such "heated" discussions about it!
It wasn't a discussion, just a mere argument. Some ppl seem to like that in here.

But anyway, thx for your interesting idea, LA86.
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