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Thread: Númenorean Blood 3rd Age


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Túrin Turambar
has made 617 posts and is a Dunedain from Osgiliath and is not online.
Posted Friday 2nd February 2007 (07:18am)
I'm currently re-reading ROTK, probably my 6th time or so, it's not as much of a surprise ending anymore. :p 'The Siege of Gondor' chapter it mentions the following
Quote:
P.106
...and with him went the Prince of Dol Amroth in his shining mail. For he and his knights still held themselves like lords in whom the race of Númenor ran true.

I always had the impression the the Dunedain from the North (can't recall exactly how many there were of them) were the only peoples in M-E where the Númenorean blood still ran true. Yet Faramir and Denethor's blood almost run true to Númenor, yet Boromir's not so much.

Tolkien early on in the LOTR hints that there are only a handful of 'pure bred' (for lack of better term) Númenoreans, but then during ROTK he gives me the impression there could be almost a thousand(s) people in M-E whom's blood does/almost runs true.

Even though Gondor was created by the Númenoreans over time they mingled with lesser folk, however, I believe it's safe to say there are still handful of citizens of Gondor whom still have much of Númenor blood in them.

It sounds like most of Dol Amroth's occupants are full blooded Númenorean. At least the knights from there are:
Quote:
P.37
...Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, kinsman of the Lord, with gilded banners bearing his token of the Ship and the Silver Swan, and a company of knights in full harness riding grey horses, and behind them seven hundreds of men at arms, tall as lords, grey-eyed, dark-haired, singing as they came.

My question being is how many people in M-E would have full Númenorean blood?
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Virumor
has made 3563 posts and is a Rohirrim from Edoras and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 31st January 2007 (09:21pm)
Denethor is a full blooded Númenoran, as a direct descendant of Mardil, the first Steward, and hence Faramir & Boromir are too. Or at least Gandalf mentioned to Pippin that Denethor had full Númenoran blood. Indeed, it is to expect that Gondor's nobility with not mingle with Men of the Twilight, although Thengel of Rohan did marry a Lady of Lossarnach before he became King.

The House of Dol Amroth started with Imrâzor the Númenoran and the Elf Mithrellas, a companion of Nimrodel, if we are to believe the legend.

The Mouth of Sauron is full blooded Númenoran, though he was a Black Númenoran.
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Túrin Turambar
has made 617 posts and is a Dunedain from Osgiliath and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st February 2007 (10:22am)
Quote:
Virumor
Or at least Gandalf mentioned to Pippin that Denethor had full Númenoran blood.

I agree and believe what you said is completely true, but I just found it odd when it states in ROTK;
Quote:
P.21
He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir whom he loved best.

You are probably right Virumor, like always. Wink Smilie I'm just sounds like Boromir was almost skipped and was the 'black sheep' of the family. Gandalf also makes it sound like Denethor wasn't of pure blood unlike the Dunedain and Prince Imrahil (plus many of his Knights) from Dol Anroth.
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Virumor
has made 3563 posts and is a Rohirrim from Edoras and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st February 2007 (11:39am)
Maybe Boromir was conceived by a lonely Guard of the High Court, as Denethor had always been too busy with political affairs than tending to his wife.

How ironic, then, that he loved Boromir the most.
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Vee
has made 2834 posts and is an Elf from Lothlorien and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st February 2007 (04:51pm)
My interpretation is that although both Boromir and Faramir were true descendants of Numenor blood only Faramir had the true 'spirit' of Numenor. He was able to resist the Ring whereas poor old Bory wasn't. I somehow doubt Denethor would have been able to resist it either. And yet Faramir (if I remember correctly) was more like Denethor than Boromir was.
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Virumor
has made 3563 posts and is a Rohirrim from Edoras and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st February 2007 (08:54pm)
Both Boromir & Denethor saw the One Ring as their last and only hope to defeat Sauron & his armies. Both would try to bend it to their will, and be destroyed in the process.

From his own words, Faramir wouldn't use the One Ring even if it would mean that the White City would go down... all nicely said, but I doubt whether Faramir would not have fallen as Boromir had he gone to Rivendell and become a member of the Fellowship of the Ring. Poor old Bory had been subjected to the One Ring for a much longer time than lil Faramir, after all.

I think Faramir would've fallen too, although it would've taken longer than his brother, as everyone would, given time.
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Vee
has made 2834 posts and is an Elf from Lothlorien and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st February 2007 (11:05pm)
You may well be right but for the time period concerned Faramir did resist the Ring and I like to think there is the possibility that he would continue to do so even if put under the same stresses as Bory and Deny. I like to think that is why Faramir had the 'air of Westernesse'. Luckily, it wasn't put to the test.
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Túrin Turambar
has made 617 posts and is a Dunedain from Osgiliath and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st February 2007 (11:32pm)
maybe so, but I also agree to the fact that basically everyone in M-E would succumb to using the ring, given enough time, with the exception of Tom Bombadil.
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Grondmaster
has made 25465 posts and is a Dwarf from Glittering Caves and has sailed into the West.
Posted Friday 2nd February 2007 (12:44am)
Sorry Vee: If Gandalf would have eventually succumbed to the Ring, then also in the end would have Faramir. Period! No ifs, and, or buts. Elf With a Big Grin Smilie But we shouldn't think any the worse of Faramir for this; he was a gallant honorable prince of the land, who did well by his Numenorian blood.
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Túrin Turambar
has made 617 posts and is a Dunedain from Osgiliath and is not online.
Posted Friday 2nd February 2007 (07:27am)
Quote:
ROTK P.106
...and with him went the Prince of Dol Amroth in his shining mail. For he and his knights still held themselves like lords in whom the race of Númenor ran true.

When I read that quote I question the part that says, "...like lords in whom the race of Númenor ran true."

Does that refer to the lords whoms blood ran true? The Prince and Knights from Dol Amroth just appeared like the old Númenor lords of old.

Maybe I'm just confusing myself and, as I thought originally, that quote refers to Imrahil and his Knights being almost true to the Númenor blood line.
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Virumor
has made 3563 posts and is a Rohirrim from Edoras and is not online.
Posted Friday 2nd February 2007 (08:42am)
Quote:
Does that refer to the lords whoms blood ran true? The Prince and Knights from Dol Amroth just appeared like the old Númenor lords of old.

I think they're just lords with pure Númenoran blood. Their ancestor Imrazor was not an important lord, just a random nobleman who got lucky to (literally) pick up an Elven babe in the woods.
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Túrin Turambar
has made 617 posts and is a Dunedain from Osgiliath and is not online.
Posted Saturday 3rd February 2007 (05:59pm)
ya I guess some guys have all the luck.
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Virumor
has made 3563 posts and is a Rohirrim from Edoras and is not online.
Posted Saturday 3rd February 2007 (11:11pm)
Quote:
My interpretation is that although both Boromir and Faramir were true descendants of Numenor blood only Faramir had the true 'spirit' of Numenor. He was able to resist the Ring whereas poor old Bory wasn't. I somehow doubt Denethor would have been able to resist it either.

Faramir resisted the Ring??! Where in Eru's name did you read that?

I've checked it myself in my edition of TTT and I found this :
Quote:
'So it seems,' said Faramir, slowly and very softly, with a strange smile. `So that is the answer to all the riddles! The One Ring that was thought to have perished from the world. And Boromir tried to take it by force? And you escaped? And ran all the way - to me! And here in the wild I have you: two halflings, and a host of men at my call, and the Ring of Rings. A pretty stroke of fortune! A chance for Faramir, Captain of Gondor, to show his quality! Ha!' He stood up, very tall and stern, his grey eyes glinting.

Frodo and Sam sprang from their stools and set themselves side by side with their backs to the wall, fumbling for their sword-hilts. There was a silence.
`Come, come, my friend! ' said Faramir in a softer voice. 'Why not get rid of it? Why not be free of your doubt and fear? You can lay the blame on me, if you will. You can say that I was too strong and took it by force. For I am too strong for you, halfling,' he cried; and suddenly he sprang over the table and leaped at Frodo. His fair and pleasant face was hideously changed; a raging fire was in his eyes.
Frodo dodged aside and again put the table between them. There was only one thing he could do: trembling he pulled out the Ring upon its chain and quickly slipped it on his finger, even as Faramir sprang at him again. The Man gasped, stared for a moment amazed, and then ran wildly about, seeking here and there next to the stools and table.

'Miserable trickster!' he shouted. `Let me get my hands on you! Now I see your mind. You will take the Ring to Sauron and sell us all. You have only waited your chance to leave us in the lurch. Curse you and all halflings to death and darkness! ' Then, catching his foot on one of the stools, he fell sprawling and lay upon his face. For a while he was as still as if his own curse had struck him down; then suddenly he wept.

He rose and passed his hand over his eyes, dashing away the tears. 'What have I said? ' he cried. `What have I done? Frodo, Frodo! ' he called. 'Come back! A madness took me, but it has passed. Come back! '

Sam hesitated for a moment, then bowing very low: `Captain, my lord,' he said. `You took the chance, sir.'
`Did I so?' said Faramir.
`Yes sir, and showed your quality: the very lowest.'
(From chapter The Window on the West)

Mind though, I possess PJ's edition of LOTR, hence some discrepancy with your edition is more than possible. Elf Sticking Tounge Out Smilie
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Vee
has made 2834 posts and is an Elf from Lothlorien and is not online.
Posted Sunday 4th February 2007 (12:45am)
Vir, you are a very naughty boy. Go to your room at once!
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Túrin Turambar
has made 617 posts and is a Dunedain from Osgiliath and is not online.
Posted Sunday 4th February 2007 (02:15am)
haha you clever little devil. It's been so long since i've read TTT that i almost believe the first 2 paragraphs, until i smelled something fishy. To tell the truth i'm just starting to re-read the LOTR again because it's been a couple years and i'm a little rusty on it. I didn't completely realize when act Virumor actually quoted until i read the part; "Frodo dodged aside and again put the table between them." Smile Smilie
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