Login | Register
 
Message Board | Latest Posts | Your Recent Posts | Rules

Thread: A HUGE book debate between fel

Is this discussion interesting? Share it on Twitter!

Bottom of Page    Message Board > The Lord of the Rings > A HUGE book debate between fel   
Greetings LOTR book and movie fans!

My name is Rick Flowers and I admin the OhioRingCouncil. Recently there has been an opinionated debate between one called JP (a friend) and myself regarding THE TWO TOWERS. (This debate has been rehashed and personally reargued for months now)

Basically, I am in request of your opinion, support, rant, or just any kind of word you may have.

Did Saruman (The White Wizard) use magic spells and/or his voice to speed up the Uruk-Hai during their race from Boromir's death to Isengard- AND simultaneously hinder and/or slow down Aragorn, Legolas, & Gimli's pursuit?

THE TWO TOWERS: Chapter 3. (Though not limited to)
The Argument: AKA: Did Saruman "buff" the Fellowship and the Orcs?

Chapter 2, page 21:
Aragorn: "There is something strange at work in this land. I distrust the silence. I distrust the pale Moon. The stars are faint; and I am weary as I have seldom been before, weary as no Ranger should be with a clear trail to follow. There is some will that lends speed to our foes and it sets an unseen barrier before us: a weariness that is in the heart more than in the limb."

Page 22:
Gimli: "My legs must forget the miles. They would be more willing is my heart were less heavy."

Chapter 3, page 47:
"Then the whole company began to run with the long loping strides of Orcs. They kept no order, thrusting, jostling, and cursing; yet their speed was very great. Each Hobbit has a guard of three. Pippin was far back in the line. He wondered how long he would be able to go on at this pace: He had no food since morning..."

Page 51:
"The Isengarders began to run with a redoubled pace that astonished Pippin, a terrific spurt it seemed for the end of a race. Then he saw that the sun was sinking, falling behind the Misty Mountains; shadows reached over the land. The soldiers of Mordor lifted their heads and also began to put on speed. The forest was dark and close..."
..."Spurring on to a last effort..."

I insist that Tolkien never implied as casting of magic spells on either party, and the chapter clearly and in detail explains the entire journey with the Uruk's not only getting tired, having to rest, and being slaughtered by the faster and "un-buffed" Riders. Didn't the Uruk party just have a slight advantage vs the regular Orcs simply because they were in fact, URUKS? (Stronger, hybrid Orcs)

So, is there a magic spell? Or the same sense of despair throughout the Fellowship throughout the entire story? While Aragorn and Gimli did have heavy hearts, were they being hindered by magic? I certainly see no evidence of magic or direct third party influence (Saruman's voice) actually "boosting" the Orcs.

Does ANYTHING support this, theory? If so, how? And where.
Please read or use your vivid memory to give me your opinions..
We have had quite the argument.

I would love to hear a quick word a fellow fan. =)
Quote:
Did Saruman (The White Wizard) use magic spells and/or his voice to speed up the Uruk-Hai during their race from Boromir's death to Isengard- AND simultaneously hinder and/or slow down Aragorn, Legolas, & Gimli's pursuit?


I don't think so. My opinion is that they used their endurance and hardiness to go through the lands and maybe their fear as well as later they were pursued by the horseman of rohan. As for the hunters it may be that they could fell the growing power of rohan over the land and as they were losing hope it may be that they became more weary.

And it is said somewhere in The Chapter Treebeard, by gandalf, something like that "the batle was over and beyond his [saruman's] help when he arrived there".

But its not the exact quote.
Wow! Thanks for the reply!
I found the quote:
Gandalf: "He was too eager to lay his hands on his prey that he could not wait at home, and he came forth to meet and to spy on his messengers. But he came too late, for once, and the battle was over and beyond his help before he reached these parts. He did not remain here long and I took into his mind and I see his doubt. HE BELIEVES THAT THE HORSEMEN SLEW AND BURNED ALL UPON THE BATTLE; BUT HE DOES NOT KNOW WHETHER THE ORCS WERE BRINGING PRISONERS OR NOT. And he does not know of the quarrel between his servants of the Orcs of Mordor; not does he know of the Winged Messenger."
Personally I believe Aragorn when he said that there was a hinderance to himself and Gimli. Granted I am not one of the most learned here, but I think that if Aragorn felt it then it was there. It may not have been a magic spell exactly but just the presence of Saruman's evil will, his malevolent spirit that had an effect.
There was a hindrance?

Please elaborate.

The only thing that Saruman did directly was scare their horses away long after the 3rd night passed. =/
Quote:
It may not have been a magic spell exactly but just the presence of Saruman's evil will, his malevolent spirit that had an effect.

That is my take on it too.
As for myself, I make no pretenses that I am a thorough Tolkien scholar. I am, in fact, not using any direct quotes to support my theory, as you requested, as I am limited on time right now. However; my idea on at least Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas's weariness during the pursuit of the Uruks is pretty basic-they were spiritually exhausted from: A.the length of their journey, B. the "loss" of Gandalf, which of course proved to be temporary, C.the simultaneous heartaches of Sam and Frodo going off on their own, which held much potential to go wrong, and the abduction of Merry and Pippin, which made all of them feel less than the great warriors and protecters that they were, which would naturally make anyone feel low, and D.As before mentioned, Saruman had his very strong will bent on obstructing any effort to undo his plans. Those things made their will to go forward waver slightly, but ultimately did not damage their resolve to come to the aid of the two hobbits. So poo on you, Saruman! As for his power effecting the flight of the Uruks, I say that power or magic or spells have no bearing on their speed. Ultimately, it all comes down to strength of will.
The relevant quote from The Two Towers is a bit longer than in the original post, so here's the fuller version for consideration:

Quote:
'There is something strange at work in this land. I distrust the silence. I distrust even the pale Moon. The stars are faint; and I am weary as I have seldom been before, weary as no Ranger should be with a clear trail to follow. There is some will that lends speed to our foes and sets an unseen barrier before us: a weariness that is in the heart more than in the limb.'

'Truly!' said Legolas. 'That I have known since first we came down from the Emyn Muil. For the will is not behind us but before us'. He pointed away over the land of Rohan into the darkling West under the sickle moon.

'Saruman!' muttered Aragorn.' But he shall not turn us back! Halt we must once more; for...'


So there is certainly the suggestion of an effective will in general, which is distinct in any case from a specific spell cast on either the Orcs or the Three Hunters.
Just like the abnormal snowstorm as they were climbing the Redhorn pass, that storm didn't come from Sauron; even if Sauron's arm had indeed grown long. It came from the mountain.
Quote:
'Caradhras was called the Cruel, and had an ill name,' said Gimli, ' long years ago, when rumour of Sauron had not been heard in these lands.' - from 'The Ring Goes South' in FotR.
The Fellowship just perceived it to have come from the enemy.

In the same way Saruman's ill will was not magic it was just the Fellowship's perception of it, which was really due to their lethargy, whose cause Laurelindhe ilmarin pointed out in her above post.

IMHO, the perceptions of these ill wills was psychological in the minds of the beholders, rather than any magic on Saruman's or Sauron's part.

In the same way, the Uruks were in a hurry to get their captives to Saruman, not due to any magic, but because they perceived he would be extremely unhappy if he later found they had dawdled along the way.
There is nothing certain from the book as grondy pointed out whixh shows that saruman was responsible for the snow storm. Indeed this part has always been vague to me but it's the book that attributes the snow storm to saruman. My opinion is that as Saruman turned to evil ways his powers began slowly to diminish as gandalf pointed out some where in The Road to Isengard and remember Frodo's quote in The scouring of the Shire saying something like "once he was great and none of us would have laid hands on him," further, in my opinion strenghening that saruman's power had already begun to wan because you don't loose your powers overnight.

Still i agree with laurelinde's post further up.

OOC: sorry for the half quotes i'm a bit lazy when it comes to searching them.
Quote:
Didn't the Uruk party just have a slight advantage vs the regular Orcs simply because they were in fact, URUKS?


JRRT did once remark that Saruman's Isengarders could go a little faster and need less rest than other Orcs (though at one notable point in the chase a few of the larger bolder Northerners appear to run with the Isengarders in the chapter The Uruk-hai for example).

Saruman's nasties appear well trained in general: in The Battles of the Fords of Isen one finds Dunlendings, Orcish wolfriders, followed by two battalions of Uruks '...the fierce Uruks, heavily armed but trained to move at great speed for many miles.'

The Mordorians run quite well actually: at one point, after running 'hour after hour' the Isengarders gradually passed through them. It was noted that this could possibly have been due to a plan, as opposed to Saruman's folk being quicker and hardier. It seems that the 'writer' of the actual tale (who is not supposed to be Tolkien himself) does not certainly know why the Orcs of Mordor were passed at this point, in any case.
Wow thanks for the thoughts! keep it coming please.

Especially Grondmaster and Golin for your knowledge of the details =)
Didn't Saruman by this time have a ring of his own devising? He could have used this to spread a general pall of despair.
I think like Sian that if Aragorn who had in his blood much from both elves and men of great bearing and gifts said there was something, there indeed was something.
Even outside of middle-earth, in real life, when I and others have been walking the streets helping those in need we h ave at times come upon something in the air as it were that could not be rationally explained, a great heaviness of feeling, almost as if someon were applying their own will in h ate and malice to stop our work. We would always notice it at the same time whether we believed in anything possible like that or not. And it would make the work terribly hard. In addition there was usually hints of or outright violence toward us at some point in the night that otherwise made no sense and had to be dealt with in order to carry on.
So if he sensed it , it was there, be it the mind of the enemy trying to bend their will to do his bidding or not.
Aragorn was already aware that he was having an 'off' week, as his one comment about "all" the choices he made having gone amiss the day Sam and Frodo left shows. But I also think that there was something going on in the land of Rohan itself that had to do with Saruman's influence over Theoden (and, indirectly, Sauron's influence over Saruman). It was an oppressive environment. Aragorn being a Dunedain was more in tune to the land than many Men would have been; Legolas being an elf would have this kind of greater connection as well. I think this gave them some insight: Aragorn did after all have a living memory of Rohan at an earlier time, when it was not 'at war' with Isengard nor 'unfriendly' to all strangers under Theoden's/Wormtongue's decrees. All that being said, this kind of 'oppressive' environment, although it was there, and was probably due to the presence and power of Saruman and of servants of Sauron -- including, we must not forget, at least one Nazgul on the other side of the river (which, though not near, the rumor of which is still enough to oppress the heart and lend more fear and speed to the orcs), I don't think this environment was specifically directed against Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli. How could it have been? Saruman had no knowledge of their pursuit.

In short, I think something was there, it was made more potent by the trio's recent bereavements and losses (we must count Gandalf, Sam, Frodo, Boromir, Merry, and Pippin all as "lost" to the trio at this point of the story - they had no hope of seeing Gandalf or Boromir again, and did not have much hope of seeing any of the rest again, either). That something was due to the influence of Sauron's servants including Saruman, but it was not created specifically to hinder them. Rather, it was the condition of Rohan at the time, due to other long-laid plans of Saruman to take over rule from Theoden.