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I agree GB that Saruman seems to have been quite "stuck up" but its hard to believe he was this way before he was clothed in flesh. Surely a spirit that displayed Sarumans personality traits would bever have been choosen by the Valar to lead such a difficult task. Sarumans arrogance must therefore have grown as a consequence of been made flesh. Tolkien mentions somewhere that one of the ways the wizards could fail was through frustration, the frustration to get the peoples of ME to act against Sauron and that over time this frustration could grow into a desire to take a more direct hand in matters rather than just persuade. This appears to be what has befallen Saruman.
Another possibilty is that the Valar, being immortal spirits, don't really understand "fleshy life", life was Gods creation and God alone but it was the Valar who choose who to send. Maybe they made a mistake. This would seem to fit more with Cirdans actions when the wizards arrive. He gives his ring to Gandalf not Saruman and more so he does so in secret without Saruman knowledge. This would imply that Cirdan saw from the start Saruman was not going to be made of the right stuff.
That makes a lot of sense about Cirdan Petty. I have the feeling that Saruman always had a superiority complex.

[b:311kte02]GB[/b:311kte02]
Yes, it's something I detest in people. Some folk do get puffed up, thinking they're bigger and better and wiser than everyone else. I call it the [i:22wxelrt]Saruman Complex[/i:22wxelrt]. People like that make me crabbit to tell you the truth. (Unless of course they [i:22wxelrt]are [/i:22wxelrt]bigger, better and wiser than anyone else, because that's different!)
Yes, I think we all detest superiority complexes in OTHER people. <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> :lol:

[b:5mtnvq14]GB[/b:5mtnvq14]
Just between you me and the gatepost (and I do trust this will go no further!) but I suspect Wise Odo is a little bit like that.... Yes, we know he is supremely wise, but at times I detect a certain aloofness in his manner. (Pleeeeease don't spread this round, GB. You know how sharp he is, he'll turn it round somehow and make [i:1ao48dki]me [/i:1ao48dki]out to be the one with the [i:1ao48dki]Saruman Complex [/i:1ao48dki]- probably using that insufferable verse of his. And this may sound nasty, but did you notice that it barely rhymes...!? :roll: )
Don't worry "Regular" Odo, your secret is safe with me. Wise old Oracle Odo need never know of your reticence <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> .

[b:3ryxmias]GB[/b:3ryxmias]
You've always been a good friend since I arrived here and I do appreciate it! <img src='/images/smileys/smile.gif' border='0' alt='Smile Smilie' /> I feel confident the (so-called) wise one (wise guy, rather!) will never read any of these other threads. Bit below him, if I read his posts on that la-deh-dah Odo thread of his right. (Probably paid Lester Cat to start that too. Not impossible!) Puffed up, that's what I'd call him. Thinks his thread is the only one that matters! And how he knocks the knowledge of ages and books and scientific inquiry! Anyhow, you know what I mean - no need belaboring the point! :roll:

Saruman Complex? Yep, that's him all over! :x

Regards
Odo Banks
Actually, this forum is of a size that I can and have read every thread. <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' />

(I know I might be jumping to conclusions, but I figured I'd cut to the chase. If you were talking about someone else, Odo, my apologies.)
Actually he meant his Aiter Ego--Wise Odo.

[b:10i9iomi]GB[/b:10i9iomi]
[i:3bkx60ea]Aiter[/i:3bkx60ea]-ego, GB. You threw me with that, so I consulted my Word Research program and found 'ait' to mean a [i:3bkx60ea]small island[/i:3bkx60ea]. Could an[i:3bkx60ea] 'aiter'[/i:3bkx60ea] be then an even [i:3bkx60ea]smaller[/i:3bkx60ea] island? This would then make [i:3bkx60ea]'aiter-ego'[/i:3bkx60ea] translate as something like [i:3bkx60ea]"very small island ego."[/i:3bkx60ea] If I'm right about this, then it would not seem to apply very well to Wise Odo, whose ego would seem a [i:3bkx60ea]large-island[/i:3bkx60ea] ego just like Saruman's.... But, GB, I feel I may indeed be missing something important here hidden amongst your nuances? Am I right?
Typo: ALTER EGO was what I meant :roll: .

[b:2pipc2zr]GB[/b:2pipc2zr]
A very Saruman-like suggestion, GB! But one should be True to oneself. Don't go altering your ego for anyone, GB. (Anyhow it could only ever be a pretense for one's ego remains one's ego, unchangeable; that's logic! (with apologies to Tweedledee or Tweedledum).

Odo Banks
SAGES
Just musing on a thought- should we be more sympathetic of Saruman? Is he necessary evil, like Judas in the Christ story he must betray Gandlaf first before the resurrection can take place- was Saruman therefore just playing a predestined part in Erus's overall plan? Was he chosen to fail? This might explain his apparent arrogance right from the start and Cirdan giving the ring to Gandalf not Saruman. Just a thought to throw out there.
I don't think that would have fit Tolkien's theological views Petty. As a Catholic, Tolkien believed in Free Will. As such, God may have a Plan, but it is the individual's choice which determines what Role he or she might play in that Plan. Providence then, is a much more subtle action than in "Calvinist" thought, wherein ALL is predetermined.

[b:qunvg8vr]GB[/b:qunvg8vr]
Good point GB- perhaps rather than predetermined they picked someone who they thought had a good chance of failing, so whilst it was Saruman's free choice to turn bad he was set up to be the one likely too fall and in so doing make one of the others stronger. Maybe that is why, despite is apparent flaws of character, he was picked as the Head of the Order.
I'm only speculating, but it seems to me that Saruman might have been picked because his arrogance was viewed as an asset. That is to say, those who chose him thought that he really WAS "above it all", and detached from Worldly Temptations.

[b:2ul8j0fj]GB[/b:2ul8j0fj]
Poor Saruman! Poor Judas! Are they in heaven now that they have served God's purpose? If predetermined by God, they should be, surely, if God is truly Just.

And if they (Saruman and Judas) were given Free Will, does this imply they might not have got around to betraying people... ah? If so, was God's Plan a sure bet at all? (See first point above: If God lays a sure bet, then we are back at predetermination again, are we not?)

If not a sure bet, then God had only a Working Plan (maybe Saruman will betray, maybe Judas will betray) and not an Actual Plan that HAS to be fulfilled. [i:29slmyzh]"I'll take an each way bet,"[/i:29slmyzh]says God.

Funny old God. Catholic was he, GB? [i:29slmyzh]"Do I act through my agents to absolutely fulfill my Plan - or do I leave things to chance?" [/i:29slmyzh] Or maybe: [i:29slmyzh]"If this Plan don't work, I'll speculate on another! Not like I haven't had Plan Changes (and mood swings) before!"[/i:29slmyzh] Omnipotent God? Or not?

Peculiar ideas, boys, curiouser and curiouser!

(NB I've never forgiven God for sending Joshua and his band off to kill every man, woman and child in Jericho. Surely, some of those babes at the breast deserved life? And I suddenly have another reason to dislike God. It's His (or Her) sheer hit-and-missedness! His management of things seems haphazard to say the least! Is he a whimsical God, after all? Like a child, maybe? Fancy having a child rule everything? Children are naturally tyrants if left unchecked. (You've probably got bosses at work like this, Mr Tyrant? Frustrating, what!)
[quote:1pncovqa][b:1pncovqa]Odo:[/b:1pncovqa]
Poor Saruman! Poor Judas! Are they in heaven now that they have served God's purpose?[/quote:1pncovqa]

You'd think so wouldn't you <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> .

Hmmm, probably should start a "Religion" thread if this keeps up :roll: . But to be brief, I concur with your quandary Odo. The problem of Free Will in "Calvinist" thought is "solved" by saying that it doesn't exist (actually many "Calvinists" say that it DOES exist but EVERYTHING is predetermined :? , which basically nullifies the concept of Free Will :roll: ). Other schools of Christian thought including Catholicism and Anglicanism seem to have a more nuanced view; but, as you point out, reconciling Free Will with God's Plan is still problematic.

In any case, surely Gollum deserves a place in Hobbit Heaven too for fulfilling his role in Eru's Plan :lol: .

[b:1pncovqa]GB[/b:1pncovqa]
Hobbit Heaven, eh?
It doesn't really belong on this thread, but, since it is my very old one, thought I could put my "plug" here 8-) .

This weekend on TBS, LOTR is showing on Friday, Saturday and Sunday, from 8 until the end of each movie. Happy watching!
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