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Thread: Orcs, Goblins, and Trolls; Oh My!

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Bottom of Page    Message Board > The Lord of the Rings > Orcs, Goblins, and Trolls; Oh My!   << [1] [2]
Oh goodie, a long debate post to make! :mrgreen: I love these.

[quote="Zeonista":158v1tbr]Untrue, Tolkien uses the two words interchangeably in LOTR, so they are meant to be divergent Westron words for the same race.[/quote:158v1tbr]

Let's look at what Tolkien actually had to say on the matter. Incidentally, he uses both phrases in TH as well.

[i:158v1tbr]"[/i:158v1tbr]Orc[i:158v1tbr] is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated [/i:158v1tbr]goblin[i:158v1tbr] ([/i:158v1tbr]hobgoblin[i:158v1tbr] for the larger kinds). [/i:158v1tbr]Orc[i:158v1tbr] is hobbits' form of the name given at that time to these creatures...
[/i:158v1tbr] ~ The Hobbit, Author's Note

[i:158v1tbr]"[/i:158v1tbr]Orc[i:158v1tbr] is the form of the name that other races had for this foul people as it was in the language of Rohan. In Sindarin it was [/i:158v1tbr]orch[i:158v1tbr]."[/i:158v1tbr] ~ TLotR, Appendix F, Orcs and the Black Speech

(This isn't a contradiction, incidentally; traditional Hobbit words and Rohirric words were related. See the Prologue to [i:158v1tbr]TLotR[/i:158v1tbr], Note on the Shire Records.)

[quote:158v1tbr]In Middle-Earth, "orc" is a Westron corruption of the Elvish [i:158v1tbr]yrch[/i:158v1tbr][/quote:158v1tbr]

That may well be how it entered the lexicon of the inhabitants of the Vales of Anduin (i.e., Hobbits and Rohirrim), but I don't see how that's relevant. It does not change the fact that the only difference between the word goblin and the word orc is one of translation, and that they refer to exactly the same people, and do not reflect a size difference.

[quote:158v1tbr]The uruk-hai are explicitly stated to be able to tolerate the Sun[/quote:158v1tbr]

Saruman's Uruk-hai were yes; but my point was that it's possible they were in fact not pure Uruks but a mix of Uruk and Human. If that is the case any statements about them cannot be extrapolated to other Uruks.

I am aware of the history.

[quote:158v1tbr]So he decided to make up uruk-hai on his own, with or without consultation from Mordor.... The orc+man breeding program was ultimately successful in giving him uruk-hai of a useful sort.[/quote:158v1tbr]

Saruman did not "make" Uruk-hai, the Uruks were already in existence. Also, Uruks are not half-orcs, and any half-orcs would be definition not be pure uruks (though they might call themselves that). Saruman's did breed half-orcs, but he merely recruited uruks.

Incidentally (you may or may not know this already), according to Myths Transformed, Text X ([i:158v1tbr]HoME X: Morgoth's Ring[/i:158v1tbr]), Morgoth bred half-orcs too. I've always wondered if Saruman discovered some ancient instructions for how to do it or got the idea based on old legends or if he came up with his program entirely on his own. Tolkien doesn't say one way or another.
I feel kind of sad when I hear you guys debate these things. You know so much on the subject... makes me feel lazy somehow.

All I can say is that Sarauman's uruk-hai were a 'new' breed to Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli. But their knowledge of history was clearly not as extensive as that of you guys. Mind you, they were making history, not studying it.

I must say, I'm keen to hear your response, Zeonista!

Odo
[b:3bo2w1t4]Odo:[/b:3bo2w1t4] A high squick factor would definitely be involved in the exacting details of Saruman's planned mating and cross-breeding orcs and men to obtain half-orc uruk-hai. The movie's depiction nicely side-stepped the whole issue for the sake of time, which was fine by me!

[b:3bo2w1t4]Eldorion:[/b:3bo2w1t4] Well, what's the point of a fan forum otherwise if we can't have debate posts and make obscure citations? :lol:

Hmm, after looking at a book or two myself, I believe the ready reference to perceived size differentials comes properly from [i:3bo2w1t4]The Hobbit[/i:3bo2w1t4] where Bilbo is trying to find his way through the tunnels of Goblin-Town, idly wondering about the low ceilings. He doesn't know that "the largest goblins, the orcs of the mountains", can run along the tunnels at a stooped posture. Gandalf also refers to the Grey Mountains as being "stiff with goblins, hobgoblins and orcs of all kinds". However, the LOTR text seems determined to marry "goblin" and "orc" as racial synonyms, to the point that only the uruk-hai need to be defined separately. So he seemed to have made his decision by the revised drafts of LOTR as a whole. (Again, the orcs themselves seemed to have seen the differences glossed over by others, with "uruk" and "snaga" indicating differences in status including, but not limited to, the physical. Apparently all orcs are equal, but some are more equal than others. <img src='/images/smileys/bigsmile.gif' border='0' alt='Big Smile Smilie' />)

Saruman's uruk-hai thought of themselves as being uruk-hai, and they tended to act like it, so if the hob-nailed shoe fits... Indeed Tolkien's first description of Ugluk is "a great black orc", albeit with a more man-like posture than the the shorter northern orcs or the simian-like Grishnakh. Not to say that the Isengarders were 100% the same as the big soldier-orcs of Mordor, but the Isengarders called themselves "the fighting uruk-hai", which seems plain enough. Ugluk and his crew were orc-like enough to be considered the "orc" or "uruk" side of the orc/man mix. I would say they were what Saruman wanted anyway, uruk-hai who were loyal to him first and foremost.
Zeonista - I'm not sure how the second of those quotes indicates a size difference, but for the first one at least the phrase "orcs of the mountains" could be referring to goblins in general. In other words, the quote might mean [i:36q1ko2x]the largest goblins, goblins also being called orcs[/i:36q1ko2x] instead of [i:36q1ko2x]the largest goblins, the larger sort of being called orcs[/i:36q1ko2x].

[quote:36q1ko2x]Saruman's uruk-hai thought of themselves as being uruk-hai, and they tended to act like it, so if the hob-nailed shoe fits...[/quote:36q1ko2x]

After thinking about it a bit more I'm prepared to concede this point especially since Grishnakh's orcs (who were pure orcs, I think it is safe to say) were also able to withstand the light. That's a lot of posts I've made in a lot of places wrong now ... oh well. My mistake, it would seem.
I can't remember exactly, but weren't some of the orcs feeling a bit sickly while making for Isengard through Rohan? And was it exhaustion or too much light?

Odo
Those were the Northerners (from Moria); non-uruks who didn't like the light.
If I hadn't worn myself out on"long debate posts" and "obscure citations" at The Prisoner Forums I would Hitting the Books and Over-Analyzing like Crazy right now :ugeek: :lol: .

[b:3srfgeoh]GB[/b:3srfgeoh]
Sounds like you're a Prisoner of Forums, dear GB.

Odo
Indeed I am :mrgreen: . So I'm a little tapped out on long posts right now. Give me a week or two to get my wind back.

[b:91riozv5]GB[/b:91riozv5]
Some wind is better out than in, as my mother always used to tell me.

Odo
[quote="Eldorion":2eaewoz7]Zeonista - I'm not sure how the second of those quotes indicates a size difference, but for the first one at least the phrase "orcs of the mountains" could be referring to goblins in general. In other words, the quote might mean [i:2eaewoz7]the largest goblins, goblins also being called orcs[/i:2eaewoz7] instead of [i:2eaewoz7]the largest goblins, the larger sort of being called orcs[/i:2eaewoz7].[/quote:2eaewoz7]

Hadn't thought of that angle before. Will have to save it for future reference.

Well Astar,like many have already said,the Moria Orcs and The mordor Orcs were of different tribes.Like Morgul and Black Uruks.

Astar wrote: (...) the main question is: Is there any real difference between different breeds of orcs, goblins, and trolls besides where they were 'created' so to speak, and if there are, what are they?T

This is seemingly one of those 'saved' threads from another forum, but since it has been bumped, I would say the 'race' of the Olog-hai enduring sunlight, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them, is a notable difference.

As for 'breeds' of orcs showing differences, I would say yes in general, although I've never really tried much to see what can be said about orc-breeds specifically.

For example Tolkien notes that the two orcs that appear in the chapter The Land of Shadow were of different breeds, and they were different physically, but for myself I have mostly focused on the nomenclature with respect to orcs -- uruk, snaga, orc, orch, 'goblin'.

I can see that 'orc' versus 'goblin' has once again become a side topic.

I'll refrain. For now Wink Smilie

Gothmog in the rotk is the ugliest vegtable i have ever seenyes

We aren't sure if the Gothmog of ROTK was an orc. There aren't any details as to what race he really was.

he looks as dried out as a prune!

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