Login | Register
 
Message Board | Latest Posts | Your Recent Posts | Rules

Thread: sex and orcs

Is this discussion interesting? Share it on Twitter!

Bottom of Page    Message Board > The Lord of the Rings > sex and orcs   
Got your attention now! No really this thread is about sex, or more specifically interbreeding. It was inspired by a conversation I was having with a friend over the remark in Fellowship that Bill Ferny's "squint-eyed Southerner" friend looked like a half-orc. My friend was arguing he had always read this is not being a literal half-orc, but that it was merely a slur against an ugly man, a racist slur indeed in modern terms, Whilst I was arguing that the human approach to something new tends to centre around only three questions; "Can I eat it? Can I make use f it? And can I shag it?" so that it was not beyond the realms of possibility that humans and orcs had bred.
So what do you think? Half-orc-humans real or just a slur on people who look a bit rough?
[quote="pettytyrant101":3fkzuucv]So what do you think? Half-orc-humans real or just a slur on people who look a bit rough?[/quote:3fkzuucv]

I would say they're both "real" (within the story) and a slur. We know from The Silmarillion that orcs reproduce sexually, and Treebeard speculates that Saruman may have interbred humans and orcs (I don't recall his exact words, but interbreeding is really the only way that would have been possible given the natures of both). In the (dubiously canon) "Myths Transformed" essays published in [i:3fkzuucv]Morgoth's Ring[/i:3fkzuucv] Tolkien states that Morgoth had also interbred humans and orcs.

Additionally, while the exact origins of Orcs are unclear, it is likely that they were corrupted elves and/or humans. Given that many of the races in LotR were a [url=http://the-hobbit-movie.com/forum/origins-of-hobbits-460.html:3fkzuucv]single species[/url:3fkzuucv], this would imply that they could interbreed. It is also possible that Orcs were in origin corrupted Maiar, but as we know from Melian, some Maiar can interbreed with the Children of Iluvatar.

So, while none of the Hobbits could have known if the "squint-eyed Southerner" actually was a half-orc, I think it is fairly clear that some existed.
I couldn't have said it better myself Eldo :ugeek: .

[b:yxl0la7p]GB[/b:yxl0la7p]
I agree Eldo, that was largely the tack I took in the debate with my friend, but I felt his point was an interesting one (and its been a slowish weekend on here so thought it might get some activity going). However if we accept Tolkiens conceit that its all history, and that something of the elvish survives in humanity through the few intermarriages between those races, then it follows that something of the orcish has been passed onto us too (explaining a lot about the poorer side to human nature). Especially as in the Scouring of the Shire it is implied that a fair few of these types of "squint eyed southerners" are present, one assumes breeding between orc and human was in fact more common than between any of the other races. Or to put it another way- there's more orc than elf in us today!
Well, I wouldn't be surprised if Orcs were the sort to rape as well as pillage :x . So no doubt there were some progeny who passed on their traits into the general gene pool.

I have to wonder though, if those "squint eyed Southerners" weren't a slight against "inbred hillbillies" <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> .

[b:1nbm6qqh]GB[/b:1nbm6qqh]
<img src='/images/smileys/bigsmile.gif' border='0' alt='Big Smile Smilie' /> GB- the Dunlendings were kinda hillbillies and good chance Saruman used them in his breeding programs so you might just be right!
Some girls find very ugly men appealing - so white not orcs? Actually, some girls marry some very ugly men (inside) with the intention of changing them! Who, seriously, has ever heard of a reformed orc? Some girls are silly.
Maybe half-orcs are just orcs who saw the errors of their ways and now psychologically they're reformed. Their mental half isn't orc but they're physical half is still as orc-ugly as it was when they were pillaging murderers. Don't judge a book by it's cover as the old saying goes <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> . Although that doesn't explain Bill Ferny, Maybe he's just a really ugly, nasty human. <img src='/images/smileys/smile.gif' border='0' alt='Smile Smilie' />

[b:1ww35mtb]J Dwarf[/b:1ww35mtb]
[quote="pettytyrant101":3omaxncd]However if we accept Tolkiens conceit that its all history, and that something of the elvish survives in humanity through the few intermarriages between those races, then it follows that something of the orcish has been passed onto us too (explaining a lot about the poorer side to human nature).[/quote:3omaxncd]

I would expect that under the conceit this is the case, though of course it would be diluted over thousands of years. I'm not sure how much of human nature I'd blame on Orcs; humans are - in both the real world and in Tolkien's - quite capable of being 'evil' on their own.
And judging by the Silmarillion, plenty of Elves could behave quite Orcish on occasion too :? , which is an issue that perplexed me for years.

[b:17wjuw5r]GB[/b:17wjuw5r]
Somehow I seriously doubt any Human/Elvish women willingly mated with Orcs <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> . Though I wouldn't preclude the possibility of one or two odd psycho-chicks perhaps going that route :? .

[b:3orlbl3s]GB[/b:3orlbl3s]
No, it's how someone I know got married... thought she could change me.... ha ha ha! (Just joking, everyone knows by now how handsome I am inside and out. You do, don't you....? :? )
Actually, your handsome inside is all I see over the internet Odo&Odo <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> .

[b:2esbvtlw]GB[/b:2esbvtlw]
It's confusion plus - or doubled - when you address me like that! :? :? I must do something about it, I see! That is, seeing that Odo and Odo are at loggerheads! Mmmmm let me think.... There may be an answer to this! ... and it may...not...be....legal... Let me see.... :twisted:
Hmmm! I think some sort of reconciliation is in order. I offer my services as a reconciled Gemini myself <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> .

[b:q63dl9cq]GB[/b:q63dl9cq]
Gemini thinking no longer! Just a quick visit to this vulgar thread to say hello and break the good news - in case you haven't heard yet, GB! (I told [i:27vjvgp1]HIM[/i:27vjvgp1] to [i:27vjvgp1]'go away'[/i:27vjvgp1], and [i:27vjvgp1]'go away'[/i:27vjvgp1] he did! <img src='/images/smileys/bigsmile.gif' border='0' alt='Big Smile Smilie' /> )
Oh contraire! It was me who did it! And it's me who feels release! <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' />
This ought to be good.... :lol:
[quote="Gandalfs Beard":3agbu3q5]plenty of Elves could behave quite Orcish on occasion too :? , which is an issue that perplexed me for years.[/quote:3agbu3q5]

I think Tolkien's point was that one's behaviour is not determined by one's race (with the possible exception of Orcs, who were created/corrupted for the explicit purpose of being soldiers for the devil), and that everyone is possible of being good or evil based on their actions. It's a message that I like.
Judging from the Avatar, Wise Odo is a Triumvirate being :? . Uh Oh! I portend further complications <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> .

As to your point regarding the capacity of beings for complex behaviours, I couldn't agree more Eldo.

[b:2fcutp86]GB[/b:2fcutp86]
:o You mean there could be more Odo's GB! It's like a personality hydra, new heads popping up all the time. Wonder what the third Odo's called?
Look at Wise Odo's Avatar...there are Three Distinct Persons in it :shock: (hmmm,...where have I heard that phrase before? :? ).

[b:2xdz7y45]GB[/b:2xdz7y45]
The best thing about being Odo is ... there are so many Odos. :shock:
Oky Doky.... Getting us back on track...
Were orcs reproduced out of the ground???
No, they were brought by storks. :P

Seriously though, as I believe I mentioned early, orcs reproduced sexually, just like elves, humans, and dwarves.
As far as I am aware Tin that's a complete invention on the film makers part. Only reason I can think for it is some misguided notion, based around the idea shared by several religions from the mid-east, that man was made from clay- so they made orcs from mud.
Oh Tin, we can always rely on you to bring some feminine commonsense (and maturity) to these threads!

A few points:

(1) I can't imagine any human having relations with an orc, no matter how obliging they were, or how much make-up they pasted on, or how dimmed the lights, not even Wise Odo (if, in fact, hobbits are just little humans - ridiculous idea that).

(2) Also, I don't think orcs came out of, or were made from, mud, unless of course they are distant relations of stone giants. I would not even accuse Wise Odo of being made from mud - though his name is [i:326b5a72]Mud[/i:326b5a72] around Rushock Bog at the moment. He was hanging around pretending to be some high filutin demi-god from Valinor (thanks for giving him [i:326b5a72]that[/i:326b5a72] idea GB! :x ) and wandering off toward Hobbiton with his pockets full of crackers and his hand on a skyrocket! Mm.. what's that Tin...? Oh yes - [i:326b5a72]maturity[/i:326b5a72]...Where was I? Oh yes!

(3) I feel the orcs were Immortal! You see, they were corrupted elves to begin with, and elves are immortal, so if [i:326b5a72]corrupted [/i:326b5a72] into orcs, they would keep on keeping on just like elves. Sauron did not lose his Immortality because he became corrupted. Sauron was in fact once quite a nice guy to begin with I hear - not unlike Wise Odo, come to think - but gradually he was drawn into the malicious schemes of Morgoth, who himself was a good guy (or at least neutral) until he started having delusions of grandeur - not unlike [i:326b5a72]someone else [/i:326b5a72]we know! :x

Anyhow, getting back to the mud issue:

(4) Isn't mud just wet clay? 8-)
[quote="Odo Banks":2u2i3kq6](3) I feel the orcs were Immortal! You see, they were corrupted elves to begin with, and elves are immortal, so if [i:2u2i3kq6]corrupted [/i:2u2i3kq6] into orcs, they would keep on keeping on just like elves.[/quote:2u2i3kq6]

Is that debate going to spread into this thread as well? :lol:
Yes... for isn't this The Hobbit Hydrahead Forum..?. Or did I just not hear right...? :?
Actually its more suited to here than the other thread- perhaps GB can find where the digression began and move it- keep everything neat, for once!
I think they're two separate discussions, and while I don't want to shut anyone down, I'd personally prefer they stay that way. It's much simpler than trying to discuss the same thing in two threads at once.
It would be even more of a headache for me to sort it out and move the posts from one thread to another now :roll: . At this point, I think we could at least try to keep the discussion in the "Orc Threads" though :? .

[b:1b4fosnl]GB[/b:1b4fosnl]
So if the other thread is about Orc immortality I guess we should stay on topic in this one. Which means we should be talking about Orc sex. :twisted:
You can I guess, Eldo, but haven't you had enough orc sex yet...? :?
Ya know, I just don't know how much more we can say about Orc Sex without getting XXX-rated <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> . Let's just say if it's related to Orc origins, breeding, and culture either thread will work :geek: .

[b:3hyfmbrc]GB[/b:3hyfmbrc]
I don't generally use a smiley as silly as :twisted: when I'm being serious.

So ... what was the actual original topic of this thread again? :roll:
Errrrm.......... :? ????

[b:2ocg8v5u]GB[/b:2ocg8v5u]
Just googled Orc Sex for a laugh. :shock: :shock: :shock:

Don't try it unless you're old enough folks...scary stuff :? .

[b:2g185n78]GB[/b:2g185n78]
Since I'm using my school's ISP I shall be especially careful to steer clear of NSFW orcs. :ugeek:
The original topic was concerning half-breeds (for want of a better word,don't think that's very pc!) that are described in Bree and The Scouring of the Shire.
On which point from the way they are described and from general reactions to them these half-orcs seem more human than orc in appearance. It is implied there are a fair few of them in the recent move of people northwards and its hard to imagine the people of Bree allowing them in to settle if they look more like orcs than humans.
I don't know, guys, but I think by Tolkien suggesting a certain 'orcinish' he was implying actual orc blood in those Southerners. Also, in the past, he suggested orcs were ruined elves. So, what we have is the possibility of Mortal orcs, Immortal orcs, Half-orcs, Quarter-orcs and Next-to-naught-orclike-Men. I'm only half joking, here. Perhaps there was all sorts of intermixturing going on! I think Tolkien's hints and suggestions should be taken seriously.