Thread: sex and orcs
So what do you think? Half-orc-humans real or just a slur on people who look a bit rough?
I would say they're both "real" (within the story) and a slur. We know from The Silmarillion that orcs reproduce sexually, and Treebeard speculates that Saruman may have interbred humans and orcs (I don't recall his exact words, but interbreeding is really the only way that would have been possible given the natures of both). In the (dubiously canon) "Myths Transformed" essays published in [i:3fkzuucv]Morgoth's Ring[/i:3fkzuucv] Tolkien states that Morgoth had also interbred humans and orcs.
Additionally, while the exact origins of Orcs are unclear, it is likely that they were corrupted elves and/or humans. Given that many of the races in LotR were a [url=http://the-hobbit-movie.com/forum/origins-of-hobbits-460.html:3fkzuucv]single species[/url:3fkzuucv], this would imply that they could interbreed. It is also possible that Orcs were in origin corrupted Maiar, but as we know from Melian, some Maiar can interbreed with the Children of Iluvatar.
So, while none of the Hobbits could have known if the "squint-eyed Southerner" actually was a half-orc, I think it is fairly clear that some existed.
I have to wonder though, if those "squint eyed Southerners" weren't a slight against "inbred hillbillies" .
I would expect that under the conceit this is the case, though of course it would be diluted over thousands of years. I'm not sure how much of human nature I'd blame on Orcs; humans are - in both the real world and in Tolkien's - quite capable of being 'evil' on their own.
I think Tolkien's point was that one's behaviour is not determined by one's race (with the possible exception of Orcs, who were created/corrupted for the explicit purpose of being soldiers for the devil), and that everyone is possible of being good or evil based on their actions. It's a message that I like.
As to your point regarding the capacity of beings for complex behaviours, I couldn't agree more Eldo.
Were orcs reproduced out of the ground???
Seriously though, as I believe I mentioned early, orcs reproduced sexually, just like elves, humans, and dwarves.
A few points:
(1) I can't imagine any human having relations with an orc, no matter how obliging they were, or how much make-up they pasted on, or how dimmed the lights, not even Wise Odo (if, in fact, hobbits are just little humans - ridiculous idea that).
(2) Also, I don't think orcs came out of, or were made from, mud, unless of course they are distant relations of stone giants. I would not even accuse Wise Odo of being made from mud - though his name is [i:326b5a72]Mud[/i:326b5a72] around Rushock Bog at the moment. He was hanging around pretending to be some high filutin demi-god from Valinor (thanks for giving him [i:326b5a72]that[/i:326b5a72] idea GB! ) and wandering off toward Hobbiton with his pockets full of crackers and his hand on a skyrocket! Mm.. what's that Tin...? Oh yes - [i:326b5a72]maturity[/i:326b5a72]...Where was I? Oh yes!
(3) I feel the orcs were Immortal! You see, they were corrupted elves to begin with, and elves are immortal, so if [i:326b5a72]corrupted [/i:326b5a72] into orcs, they would keep on keeping on just like elves. Sauron did not lose his Immortality because he became corrupted. Sauron was in fact once quite a nice guy to begin with I hear - not unlike Wise Odo, come to think - but gradually he was drawn into the malicious schemes of Morgoth, who himself was a good guy (or at least neutral) until he started having delusions of grandeur - not unlike [i:326b5a72]someone else [/i:326b5a72]we know!
Anyhow, getting back to the mud issue:
(4) Isn't mud just wet clay?
Is that debate going to spread into this thread as well?
So ... what was the actual original topic of this thread again?
Don't try it unless you're old enough folks...scary stuff .
On which point from the way they are described and from general reactions to them these half-orcs seem more human than orc in appearance. It is implied there are a fair few of them in the recent move of people northwards and its hard to imagine the people of Bree allowing them in to settle if they look more like orcs than humans.