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[quote="pettytyrant101":3ibnwivn]A strong black mark? Adultery and murder, I'll say. He doesn't half pick 'em your God.[/quote:3ibnwivn] Ahh! But Davo was an excellent dancer! Dancers are not like other people and they must not be judged by the same standards. :ugeek:
I think you're right on the anchor thing Tin, but I'd extend it to more than just Boromir. I think one of the reasons Tolkien makes people buy so easily into a fantasy world is that its full of these anchor points. There might be orcs, trolls, wargs, wizards, hobbits and the like but we still recognize the world and things in it and some of the people, like Boromir, who as you say doesn't possess anything unimaginable or special powers, just wealth and position. Tolkien goes to great lengths to make the fantasy believable by grounding it in a strong sense of reality. Boromir is real in that sense, with foibles and weaknesses and strengths and Tolkien shows us them all. Many people who read LotR miss the bit about Frodo thinking he failed- in typical Tolkien fashion he doesn't signpost the fact- but once you realize it it does change how the ending is viewed. Never trusted professional dancers Odo- something about the fixed smiles that says caution needed!!
My daughter is a ballroom dancer, only amateur at this stage, and she's planning on keeping her genuine smile for when she turns professional - but we must face harsh realities here, acting is, afterall, [i:24wzd5gi]acting[/i:24wzd5gi]. <img src='/images/smileys/bigsmile.gif' border='0' alt='Big Smile Smilie' /> Though, I must say, many dancers are extremely fake, giving the audience teeth but not engagement, and so I do see your point. :|
Well having a profession in which seeing the odd corpse turn up is not unusual there is something of the rigor mortis grin about some pro dancers. Dead but still dancing! A worrying combination.
[quote="pettytyrant101":1cwfjxrj]Actually redemption is interesting in LotR- Boromir redeems himself but Gollum never does. Frodo can't redeem himself because he thinks he failed, in his case it does take divine intervention in allowing a time in the Undying Lands to heal.[/quote:1cwfjxrj] Yeah, except Frodo didn't really fail; he got the Ring to where it needed to be, which was the most that could be expected of anyone. As for Gollum, I like to think that as he died happy, he was, in a sense, redeemed. I always felt Boromir was definitely redeemed, indeed I thought him more "Noble" than Denethor (have I ever mentioned that I always thought Denethor an Arrogant Jerk, even in the books? <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> ). [b:1cwfjxrj]GB[/b:1cwfjxrj]
I think we see Denethor at his worst. Although he never seems to have been a barrel of laughs but then he grew up in very serious times indeed. You're right about Frodo- which was why I was careful to say Frodo thought he had failed, not that he had failed. Not sure I agree about Gollum- happy right up till the moment he struck the lave maybe! But right to the last he is covetous, he doesn't sacrifice himself he slips whilst reveling in his possession of power (or at least an object of power). I don't think he ever was redeemed in a spiritual sense.
[quote="pettytyrant101":1izb0ph0]Not sure I agree about Gollum- happy right up till the moment he struck the lave maybe! But right to the last he is covetous, he doesn't sacrifice himself he slips whilst reveling in his possession of power (or at least an object of power). I don't think he ever was redeemed in a spiritual sense.[/quote:1izb0ph0] I agree on this one Petty, however, poor Gollum though, I always held out hope for him and could see aspects of what is worst in myself in him.
[quote="Noom Chevaline":2q8e4ayr] I could possibly see him being like the disciple Peter after he had denied Christ when the cock had crowed three times[/quote:2q8e4ayr] Ringrotten, this is my example of Simon Peter. I agree with Ally on this part, I do see a lot of Simon Peter to give him his full name in Boromir: Peter was [b:2q8e4ayr]staunch in his convictions[/b:2q8e4ayr]: Mathew 26:33-35 33 Peter replied, “Even if all fall away on account of you, I never will.” 34 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times.” 35 But Peter declared, “Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you.” And all the other disciples said the same. [b:2q8e4ayr]Willing Spirit but weak flesh:[/b:2q8e4ayr] 40 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Couldn’t you men keep watch with me for one hour?” he asked Peter. 41 “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.” [b:2q8e4ayr]Realisation of his weakness:[/b:2q8e4ayr] 74 Then he began to call down curses, and he swore to them, “I don’t know the man!” Immediately a rooster crowed. 75 Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken: “Before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times.” And he went outside and wept bitterly. There is no death scene, but I believe that although Tolkein took inspiration from aspects of the Bible he was not looking for direct parallels or allegories. People read more theology into Tolkein than is actually there.
[quote="Tinuviel":3mvkq1nt]I never meant to say that Boromir was like Jesus. I feel if I were to make that ananlogy, Aragorn would be Jesus.[/quote:3mvkq1nt] I disagree and see more of Gandalf, after work I will pontificate. :ugeek:
Oh please! Just because he died and came back? :P Gandalf is not Jesus (and neither is Aragorn by the way). Tolkien would be absolutely HORRIFIED and insulted that readers were mistaking applicability for allegory. Allegory was the the Bane of his intentions for LotR. [b:e9slo140]GB[/b:e9slo140]
I think Tin's favourite quote should be to the forefront in such discussions. I think you can go as far as to say that some of the broad themes explored in LotR are also explored in biblical stories (and all sorts of other places) but drawing anything more from it than that is false. ps I died on the operating table and was brought back as a child- I might be Jesus!! Let this water become buckie!! Damn! Soup? Why soup? God does indeed move in mysterious ways (and apparently likes soup).
[quote="pettytyrant101":2wj33567]I think Tin's favourite quote should be to the forefront in such discussions. I think you can go as far as to say that some of the broad themes explored in LotR are also explored in biblical stories (and all sorts of other places) but drawing anything more from it than that is false. [/quote:2wj33567] Is not that what I said? [quote="Noom Chevaline":2wj33567] I believe that although Tolkein took inspiration from aspects of the Bible he was not looking for direct parallels or allegories. People read more theology into Tolkein than is actually there.[/quote:2wj33567] I don't see the allegories myself but I can see why some people try to.
Some people will try to see allegories in anything, particularly to support pet ideas or theories which is why I think Tolkien went out of his way in the introduction to try to stop people doing just that. Tolkien's influences were incredibly diverse, from European myth and legends to Christianity and more. I think its endurance as a work partly stems from its particular mix of all these themes making it more than its individual parts. Trying to decide which bit is from where is a bit like sitting down to an expertly crafted meal and then dissecting it back into its constituent bits and then wondering why it doesn't taste good anymore. "He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom" as a wise man with a beard once said.
Thanks for the info, Noom, now that you said it I do in fact remember that particular story from my earliest school years. I can see that Simon Peter resembles Boromir in the sense that he said he would never betray Jesus, but ended up doing so anyway (a parallel can be drawn to Boromir and Frodo).
I can see the parallel of that aspect between Simon Peter and Boromir but not sure I follow you Ringdrotten with regards Frodo. Unless you mean that he said he would destroy the Ring and then failed to carry it through. But if so I don't think the two are the same, Frodo never really faced a choice, it was (to use a Trekker term) a Kobyashi Maru scenario, a no-win. Simon Peter could have chosen to not deny Jesus, free will still had an active role, with Frodo free will had been consumed. Even when Frodo says, "I have come. But I do not choose to do what I came to do. I will not do this deed. The Ring is mine!" it seems like a clear choice, but in fact its an inevitability. And one which leads to Frodo's malaise. He also sees it as a choice he made, a moral, spiritual and personal failure on his part. But the Wise, Gandalf and co see it otherwise and arrange to have him brought to the Undying Lands for healing because he did not fail, he merely reached the only conclusion he could have. Frodo's heroism and victory is to have got far enough with the Ring to make sure it was in the one place where chance might yet destroy it. He succeeded in doing all that was possible to do. I don't see this as being parallel to Boromir, or Simon Peter. Assuming that was what you meant of course!
Yeah, what I meant was that Boromir sort of betrayed Frodo's trust in him when he tried to take the ring. But of course, as you say, this wasn't Boromir's choice, he was tricked by the ring to do what he did. A far-fetched comparison, but still, if we are comparing LotR to the Bible, it is a possible comparison <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' />
If we are comparing LOTR to the Bible I would suggest that the One Ring in its role in corrupting Boromir represents Original Sin, but as has been pointed out, Tolkien didn't like allegory. :P
[quote="Eldorion":2yukdn6v] Tolkien didn't like allegory. [/quote:2yukdn6v] And that is good. LotR wouldn't have been the same had there been all sorts of bible references everywhere.
Agreed. Tolkien just wanted to tell a story, not make any sort of commentary, and the book is better for that. <img src='/images/smileys/smile.gif' border='0' alt='Smile Smilie' />
One doesn't have to look far for the influences. Beowulf and the Nordic Ring Cycle was one of the key inspirations. But Tolkien built this on top of originally an almost Celtic Animist Mythos which he developed over the years into a blend of Catholic and Classical Greek/Roman Mythology. So you have key elements of all of those plus a smidgen of Sumer-Babylonian references. [b:2d54a5i1]GB[/b:2d54a5i1]
[quote="Gandalfs Beard":1dwupz8u]Oh please! Just because he died and came back? :P Gandalf is not Jesus (and neither is Aragorn by the way). Tolkien would be absolutely HORRIFIED and insulted that readers were mistaking applicability for allegory. Allegory was the the Bane of his intentions for LotR. [b:1dwupz8u]GB[/b:1dwupz8u][/quote:1dwupz8u] That was just the first layer in this contrived onion, here are some other layers: Religious Themes in Film By Matthew Albright (part 3 only) The Return: Gandalf the White Gandalf returns and rejoins his friends, and the fight, in the second movie in the Fangorn Forest. He returns “reborn.” He has a new identity: Gandalf the White instead of Gandalf the Grey. With this new identity comes new powers. Gandalf is indeed more powerful than before, both physically and spiritually. Having met his darkest physical and psychological fears, he has returned with a new confidence and a higher level of power on both levels. The rebirth is not only psychological, it is physical. His friends hardly recognize the new Gandalf, he seems to glow. Consider a strikingly similar scene recounted in the New Testament, when Jesus brings some of his disciples up to a mountain: ”And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became dazzling white.” Mt 17:2 and a similar verse in Mk 9. This transfiguration by Jesus is a brief preview of his post-resurrected body.
Odin also died and was resurrected with enhanced powers. :roll: In fact, Gandalfs bears more than a passing resemblance to Odin, particularly Odin as the Wanderer.
Applicable, but not Allegorical. :P there are far too many differences to reach the categorical conclusions posited by you, and which you (mistakenly) attributed to Matthew Albright (which you apparently took out of context). Any similarities can also be found in nearly EVERY ancient Myth of Dying and Resurrected Heroes, which Tolkien jolly well knew. I was wondering if Matthew Albright is actually Father Matthew J Albright, Catholic Priest. [b:coysvvb6]But I doubt it[/b:coysvvb6] after I found the Religious Themes in Film articles by Matthew Albright. His thesis is actually remarkably similar to what I myself have pointed out at length (and above) in some of the Earliest Threads at this forum (of which my very brief post that you responded to encapsulated in a Nutshell. Rather than coming off as a Catholic priest, THIS Matthew Albright reads like a Scholar of ancient Myths and Comparative Religion and Philosophy. Reading through his posts I did not at all get what you got. In fact the small segment you posted was part of a larger thesis in which he referenced Joseph Campbell and Mircae Eliade: two figures that greatly influenced my own scholarly research. So he was not at all drawing a one to one relationship between Gandalf and Jesus (which would be allegorical), he was simply pointing out some of the APPLICABLE similarities. In fact he could just as easily have been discussing the Buddha, or Mithras, or any other of a host of Quasi-historical or Mythological beings to which ALL those attributes in the part of the article you quoted from are similar. And in fact if you read much more of the article than that which you posted, you will see that Matthew refers to these iconoc characters as ARCHETYPES--thus referencing Joseph Campbell's, Carl Jung's, and Mircae Eliade's, and Houston Smith's theses. Tolkien, though himself a Catholic, was an intellectual and a scholar of comparative religions and Mythology in his own right, as was CS Lewis. And had they been born a generation later, I expect they would have wholeheartedly agreed with the ideas Campbell and Eliade were enumerating. Especially given their close friendships with other Scholars who were also exploring the relationships of the Theosophical, Pagan, and Mystical ideas of many different cultures both East and West. So I think you're barking up the wrong tree to try to use that snippet of a passage to make a case that Gandalf=Jesus. Because very clearly that is not all the point Matthew Albright was trying to get across. I bookmarked Matthew Albright's articles for a much more in-depth read. He seems like a scholar after my own heart. I would recommend that you read his articles more fully Noom. Now it's entirely possible that I am misinterpreting the point you were trying to make Noom. But you have to admit if you re-read your post, you sound like you are trying to use that quote as an Authority to make a categorical statement that Gandalf=Jesus. And to boot, your statement claims that the point [b:coysvvb6][i:coysvvb6]I[/i:coysvvb6][/b:coysvvb6] was making was just the first layer in a "contrived onion," :x when in fact YOU appear to be positing a Single Layer. Whereas BOTH Matthew and I were pointing at the MANY layers of a very real Metaphorical onion. [quote:coysvvb6][b:coysvvb6]ME:[/b:coysvvb6] [size=150:coysvvb6]One doesn't have to look far for the influences. Beowulf and the Nordic Ring Cycle was one of the key inspirations. But Tolkien built this on top of originally an almost Celtic Animist Mythos which he developed over the years into a [b:coysvvb6]blend of Catholic and Classical Greek/Roman Mythology.[/b:coysvvb6] So you have key elements of all of those plus a smidgen of Sumer-Babylonian references.[/size:coysvvb6] [/quote:coysvvb6] If I am wrong as to your intentions, and the idea you were trying to convey, please disabuse me of this notion with a bit more clarity. :ugeek: [b:coysvvb6]GB[/b:coysvvb6]
[quote="Eldorion":2dkgqz2z]Odin also died and was resurrected with enhanced powers. :roll: In fact, Gandalfs bears more than a passing resemblance to Odin, particularly Odin as the Wanderer.[/quote:2dkgqz2z] Evidence?
[quote="Eldorion":3ok0vul8]Odin also died and was resurrected with enhanced powers. :roll: In fact, Gandalfs bears more than a passing resemblance to Odin, particularly Odin as the Wanderer.[/quote:3ok0vul8] Eldo's point is entirely accurate, and is a clear example of the points that I was making and that you appear to be attempting to refute Noom. [b:3ok0vul8]GB[/b:3ok0vul8]
[quote="Noom Chevaline":15weqspn][quote="Eldorion":15weqspn]Odin also died and was resurrected with enhanced powers. :roll: In fact, Gandalfs bears more than a passing resemblance to Odin, particularly Odin as the Wanderer.[/quote:15weqspn] Evidence?[/quote:15weqspn] [quote:15weqspn]Character Development Mythical roots The Old Norse name "Gandalfr" appears in the list of dwarves in the Völuspá of the Elder Edda; the name means "cane-elf." Tolkien took the name along with the dwarves' names when he wrote The Hobbit in the 1930s. He came to regret the creation of this "rabble of eddaic-named dwarves, [...] invented in an idle hour" (The Return of the Shadow:452), since it forced him to come up with an explanation of why Old Norse names should be used in Third Age of Middle-earth. He solved the dilemma in 1942 by the explanation that Old Norse was a translation of the language of Dale. [b:15weqspn]The figure of Gandalf has other influences from Germanic mythology, particularly Odin in his incarnation as "the Wanderer", an old man with one eye, a long white beard, a wide brimmed hat, and a staff. Tolkien states that he thinks of Gandalf as an "Odinic wanderer" in a letter of 1946 (Letters no. 107)[/b:15weqspn]. Gandalf is also similar to Väinämöinen, a Bard in Finnish mythology[/quote:15weqspn] [quote:15weqspn]Turning to the far north, we find the story of Odin as told in the Scandinavian Edda. He too, though father of the gods, creator of men, and the personification of wisdom, was a "suffering and dying God," who through his crucifixion became the savior of men. In his Rune Song, Odin says: I know that I hung on a wind-rocked tree, nine whole nights, With a spear wounded and to Odin offered -- myself to myself -- On that tree of which no one knows from what root it springs. Thus, a more universal conception of resurrection was taught in former times. It was the supreme goal of initiation, the virgin birth of the soul which each must achieve for himself. "Except a man be born again he cannot enter the kingdom." But to achieve this rebirth, this resurrection, there must first be a mystical death, a conquest or crucifixion of all earthly passions, and a descent into the underworld. One's own soul must meet and triumph over all the powers of Darkness -- within itself -- and as Dionysos, as Christ, as Odin, become one with its God. [/quote:15weqspn] You really need to expand your reading of ancient Mythology a bit Noom. <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> [b:15weqspn]GB[/b:15weqspn]
[quote="Gandalfs Beard":2pecsp22] Applicable, but not Allegorical. :P So he was not at all drawing a one to one relationship between Gandalf and Jesus (which would be allegorical), he was simply pointing out some of the APPLICABLE similarities. [/quote:2pecsp22] Thats all I was doing as well. [quote="Gandalfs Beard":2pecsp22]So I think you're barking up the wrong tree to try to use that snippet of a passage to make a case that Gandalf=Jesus. Because very clearly that is not all the point Matthew Albright was trying to get across.[/quote:2pecsp22] I am not saying that Gandalf=Jesus. I do not think Gandalf=Jesus. I was using Albright to show how that some can argue that. I said it was only part of the article, I was not going to pretend it was my own work, that is why I left his name on it. I did not say that that was Albrights whole point. I only cut it short to get to the point and minimise the reading for those following this thread. [quote="Gandalfs Beard":2pecsp22]I would recommend that you read his articles more fully Noom. [/quote:2pecsp22] Read my previous writing more fully. [color=#BF0080:2pecsp22][quote="Noom Chevaline":2pecsp22][quote="pettytyrant101":2pecsp22]I think Tin's favourite quote should be to the forefront in such discussions. I think you can go as far as to say that some of the broad themes explored in LotR are also explored in biblical stories (and all sorts of other places) but drawing anything more from it than that is false. [/quote:2pecsp22][/color:2pecsp22] Is not that what I said? [quote="Noom Chevaline":2pecsp22] I believe that although Tolkein took inspiration from aspects of the Bible he was not looking for direct parallels or allegories. People read more theology into Tolkein than is actually there.[/quote:2pecsp22] I don't see the allegories myself but I can see why some people try to.[/quote:2pecsp22][/color] [quote="Gandalfs Beard":2pecsp22]Now it's entirely possible that I am misinterpreting the point you were trying to make Noom. But you have to admit if you re-read your post, you sound like you are trying to use that quote as an Authority to make a categorical statement that Gandalf=Jesus.[/quote:2pecsp22] You are misinterpreting my point. I feel that we are very much on different wavelengths. I fell that you put on some metaphorical spectacles before you read many of my posts and read into them things that are not there. I actually sometimes feel prejudged before you read anything I post and that you interpret what you read afterwards by what you pre judge. [quote="Gandalfs Beard":2pecsp22]And to boot, your statement claims that the point [b:2pecsp22][i:2pecsp22]I[/i:2pecsp22][/b:2pecsp22] was making was just the first layer in a "contrived onion," :x when in fact YOU appear to be positing a Single Layer. Whereas BOTH Matthew and I were pointing at the MANY layers of a very real Metaphorical onion.[/quote:2pecsp22] Haven't a clue what you are on about here, you need to make yourself clearer. [quote="Gandalfs Beard":2pecsp22]If I am wrong as to your intentions, and the idea you were trying to convey, please disabuse me of this notion with a bit more clarity. :ugeek: [b:2pecsp22]GB[/b:2pecsp22] [/quote:2pecsp22] I have tried but probably just confused the issue a bit more. I do not believe that Gandalf=Jesus, I can just see some aspects that have some similarites. I also recognise that these similarities are found elsewhere. I do not know enough about the other sources to speak on them with any sense of authority.
You still haven't responded to the evidence provided that actually clarifies Tolkien's inspiration for Gandalf. This indicates to me that it is not I wearing blinders while reading your posts, but rather that your self-admitted lack of knowledge of other Pagan Mythologies which share similar features with Christian Pagan Mythology hinders your ability to make clear and informed statements on the subject. Instead of rationalizing about how wrong I am about your position, you could have just admitted that you could see how your post might have given the wrong impression of what you meant. And THEN you could have just said, "Yes, I meant just what you meant." (which you did do, but along with a bunch of justification) My apologies for any confusion on my part. [b:k5zfkmay]GB[/b:k5zfkmay]
[quote="Noom Chevaline":2exwkxqi][quote="Eldorion":2exwkxqi]Odin also died and was resurrected with enhanced powers. :roll: In fact, Gandalfs bears more than a passing resemblance to Odin, particularly Odin as the Wanderer.[/quote:2exwkxqi] Evidence?[/quote:2exwkxqi] Well, for one, both were resurrected and returned with enhanced powers? I think I already mentioned that. <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> Also, both have an association with runes (Gandalf has his G-symbol) and Odin was said to have invented or discovered runes. The tree that Odin hung himself from to gain knowledge of runes was an ash-tree, and Gandalf bears an ash-staff (TTT, The King of the Golden Hall; this is mentioned as the travellers are about to enter the Hall). Odin was said to be wise, and came to men as a wanderer on the road. Gandalf did much the same, obviously. Frankly, the parallels are quite obvious. I'm not saying that the two characters are exactly the same, but it's hard to miss the similarities. EDIT: I'm not sure if you're asking for evidence that Odin was resurrected or of my other claim. Anyway, here are some URLs so you can read it for yourself. You'll have to copy and paste them though, since the forum software doesn't like multiple links. I would recommend reading a book on Norse mythology, but unfortunately my copy of Edith Hamilton is at home and I'm at school. +http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin +http://www.druidry.org/obod/trees/ash.html +http://www.adula.com/runes_history.htm
[quote="Gandalfs Beard":2dw3oz8j]You still haven't responded to the evidence provided that actually clarifies Tolkien's inspiration for Gandalf.[/quote:2dw3oz8j] Ok, I can see it, I never denied it and am not arguing against it. [quote="Gandalfs Beard":2dw3oz8j]This indicates to me that it is not I wearing blinders while reading your posts, but rather that your self-admitted lack of knowledge of other Pagan Mythologies which share similar features with Christian Pagan Mythology hinders your ability to make clear and informed statements on the subject.[/quote:2dw3oz8j] I do have a lack of knowledge in other mythologies and it does reduce the clarity of what I try to say; however following that logic, I should just keep my mouth shut because I am not as well read in mythology and until then,I am not allowed an opinion. I still do think you have blinders on at times when responding to me. Now that I have made you aware that I believe and I do believe that you have them on, look out for it and test yourself in future. [quote="Gandalfs Beard":2dw3oz8j]Instead of rationalizing about how wrong I am about your position, you could have just admitted that you could see how your post might have given the wrong impression of what you meant. [/quote:2dw3oz8j] I can see why it would give a wrong impression but to what extent I don't know? [quote="Gandalfs Beard":2dw3oz8j]And THEN you could have just said, "Yes, I meant just what you meant." (which you did do, but along with a bunch of justification)[/quote:2dw3oz8j] I wish things were that simple in my head, it would never have come out right. [quote="Gandalfs Beard":2dw3oz8j]My apologies for any confusion on my part. [b:2dw3oz8j]GB[/b:2dw3oz8j] [/quote:2dw3oz8j] My apologies also.
Dear GB, what is a "contrived onion"? Is it a metaphorical term? Btw I think Gandalf is "Jesus-like" in a way - which is all Noom was saying I think - if Tolkien wasn't saying he [i:18ambzod]was[/i:18ambzod] a Jesus figure. It's just a subtle "resonance" that T would have plainly been aware of. Are we not all Christ-like when we're resurrected. (My Gawd, I know I was!) And, yes, I think on this occasion, some of what Noom was saying was misinterpreted. How about giving him a fair go, guys! That's what I say! Yes, Noom! :lol: (But NEVER GB! :x )
It's amazing how much this one character can inspire an 8 page conversation! With everything just said, you've proved Tolkien right. None of us have been allegorical, we have been applicable. We all apply whatever we connect the story to. Some, it's the bible. Others, Norse Mythology. The stories that really matter are the ones that make you want to get up and do something. The best way to do that is to connect with the reader at the most personal level. All of us are defending our own views because they are personal to each of us individually. If PEOPLE could be considered applicable and not allegorical, then would there be social profiling? wouldn't we all centrally be the same? The same story? I think the story that Tolkien told is the one that is in the racial memory of everyone human being, which is why LOTR is one of the top 10 best selling books of all time. So I guess something we should all try to do, being all different kinds of Tolkeinists, is to apply someone else's life story to our own instead of assuming it's definite shape. And I'm just curious (and maybe this is a better post for the BIG BAD SERiOUS thread,) if not God, then what?
[quote="Tinuviel":8u0m09zx]And I'm just curious (and maybe this is a better post for the BIG BAD SERiOUS thread,) if not God, then what?[/quote:8u0m09zx] [i:8u0m09zx]Something[/i:8u0m09zx] very mysterious... Yes... verrry..... mysterious... :ugeek:
[quote="Odo Banks":2cyb8s8b]Dear GB, what is a "contrived onion"? Is it a metaphorical term?[/quote:2cyb8s8b] Ask Noom. It was his term. And that was the poorly worded phrase which implied the opposite of that which Noom says he intended to mean. [quote:2cyb8s8b]Btw I think Gandalf is "Jesus-like" in a way - which is all Noom was saying I think - if Tolkien wasn't saying he [i:2cyb8s8b]was[/i:2cyb8s8b] a Jesus figure. It's just a subtle "resonance" that T would have plainly been aware of. Are we not all Christ-like when we're resurrected. (My Gawd, I know I was!) [/quote:2cyb8s8b] Yes, that's been my point all along, [quote:2cyb8s8b]And, yes, I think on this occasion, some of what Noom was saying was misinterpreted. How about giving him a fair go, guys! That's what I say! Yes, Noom! :lol: (But NEVER GB! :x )[/quote:2cyb8s8b] Yes, I did give Noom a fair go....after he explained that he didn't actually mean what his "contrived onion" post actually said, and that he actually meant exactly the same thing I was saying. <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> But in the end, if we want to know who REALLY inspired Gandalf, we need look no further than Tolkien's own words: [quote:2cyb8s8b]Character Development Mythical roots The Old Norse name "Gandalfr" appears in the list of dwarves in the Völuspá of the Elder Edda; the name means "cane-elf." Tolkien took the name along with the dwarves' names when he wrote The Hobbit in the 1930s. He came to regret the creation of this "rabble of eddaic-named dwarves, [...] invented in an idle hour" (The Return of the Shadow:452), since it forced him to come up with an explanation of why Old Norse names should be used in Third Age of Middle-earth. He solved the dilemma in 1942 by the explanation that Old Norse was a translation of the language of Dale. [b:2cyb8s8b][color=#BF0000:2cyb8s8b]The figure of Gandalf has other influences from Germanic mythology, particularly Odin in his incarnation as "the Wanderer", an old man with one eye, a long white beard, a wide brimmed hat, and a staff.[u:2cyb8s8b] Tolkien states that he thinks of Gandalf as an "Odinic wanderer" in a letter of 1946 (Letters no. 107)[/color:2cyb8s8b][/u:2cyb8s8b][/b:2cyb8s8b]. Gandalf is also similar to Väinämöinen, a Bard in Finnish mythology[/quote:2cyb8s8b] And then we have the explanatory Edda passage that demonstrates why Tolkien was inspired by Odin (and yes, the [b:2cyb8s8b]Archetypal[/b:2cyb8s8b] connection to Christ as well): [quote:2cyb8s8b]Turning to the far north, we find the story of Odin as told in the Scandinavian Edda. He too, though father of the gods, creator of men, and the personification of wisdom, was a "suffering and dying God," who through his crucifixion became the savior of men. In his Rune Song, Odin says: I know that I hung on a wind-rocked tree, nine whole nights, With a spear wounded and to Odin offered -- myself to myself -- On that tree of which no one knows from what root it springs. Thus, a more universal conception of resurrection was taught in former times. It was the supreme goal of initiation, the virgin birth of the soul which each must achieve for himself. "Except a man be born again he cannot enter the kingdom." But to achieve this rebirth, this resurrection, there must first be a mystical death, a conquest or crucifixion of all earthly passions, and a descent into the underworld. One's own soul must meet and triumph over all the powers of Darkness -- within itself -- and as Dionysos, as Christ, as Odin, become one with its God. [/quote:2cyb8s8b] [b:2cyb8s8b]GB[/b:2cyb8s8b]
Enough of this silliness! What is the origin of Gandalf. Easy! [img:3tko6y9k]http://i1011.photobucket.com/albums/af236/pettytyrant101/Der_Berggeist.jpg[/img:3tko6y9k] Tolkien kept a postcard of this painting by Josef Madlener entitled Der Berggeist, the mountain spirit. And on the back Tolkien wrote, "Origin of Gandalf." Couldn't be blooming clearer. So if you really want to look at what might have influenced Gandalf look to Tolkien's own words. Odin and Norse stuff gets a mention by Tolkien and this picture- no bibles, no Jesus, can't recall Tolkien ever making those direct comparisons (he may even have found the suggestion blasphemous! :shock: ). Tin makes a good point. The endurance of LotR is the ability to read into it what you bring to it. And on that front you can bring God, Jesus or a choir of monkeys into it if you want. But if anyone is going to make statements about what Tolkien meant then that's a mistake, and all that can be said on it is what Tolkien left for us to read. The rest is speculation and silence.
Yes, that very postcard was attached to the very article quoting Tolkien I posted above. I almost posted the picture too. Can't get any clearer than Tolkien's own words. <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> [b:12h669ue]GB[/b:12h669ue]
The artist of the above pic has a touch of the Gandalf about him too (not to mention being a disembodied head). [img:1d3pnx5y]http://i1011.photobucket.com/albums/af236/pettytyrant101/origengandalf.jpg[/img:1d3pnx5y]
Self Portrait. :mrgreen: [b:4epuoju4]GB[/b:4epuoju4]
:mrgreen: The same thought occurred to me GB but apparently not. The photo is from the artist late in life and the picture was done when he was much younger. Kinda spooky really painting an accurate picture of yourself old before you are old!
Never once did I suggest that Tolkein had Jesus as a source of Tolkein. It is something that I and others have subjectively brought to it. It is contrived like forcing a square peg into a round hole and it does have layers like an onion. Hope that is clear. I have enjoyed the potcard picture, it is good to know where Tolkein found his inspiration.
[quote="Tinuviel":yu7126xp]And I'm just curious (and maybe this is a better post for the BIG BAD SERiOUS thread,) if not God, then what?[/quote:yu7126xp] This could be me still being groggy from having just woken up, but what exactly are you asking? :? Are you asking a general question about the universe (i.e., if there's no God, then what is there) or something more specific?
More generalized. Do you think there is a higher power, and if so, then what, if not, then what? And I saw a flyer once for a Norse Mythology/Tolkien Mythology class once, which would have been amazing to take IF i had been in college... In sixth grade my teacher made connections to LOTR when talking about Norse Mythology.
Will respond in the Big Bad Serious Thread. <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' />
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