Thread: quick question....
Of course, in LOtr JRR only hinted at this, and never said Undying lands, or Valinor, or Valar at any point. However, Mr Jackson has decided to thow these qustions into the mix, by liberally sprinkling his script with these phrases which mean nothing to your average movie-goer, and only make sense to ultra tolk-geeks like myself.
Hope I've helped you there perfectkiller, welcome to the forums, stay and enjoy, and feel free to ask anything you need to know, one of us usually knows the answer.
In addition to Plastic's answer, about the Undying lands lying on the straight road across the horizon, this was not always the case.
When first created Ea (the world) was flat and the Undying Lands lay across the sea to the west of Middle Earth. Later an island was created in the middle of this sea, and became home to the Numenorians (forefathers of the Gondorians and Aragorn).
As time passed, however, Sauron corrupted the Numenorians and encouraged them to invade the Undying Lands and claim immortality for themselves. With a great fleet they did this, but as soon as they landed on the shores that had been forbidden to them, Eru (the One God) destroyed them and their island. To prevent it happening again, he then removed the Undying Lands from Ea, setting it some place else, and made the world round.
The elves will not suffer the effects of ageing in Middle Earth, but they do become weary of it after a great time. In the Undying Lands their spirit is kind of revitilised.
As a footnote for you, the Halls of Mandos (the place the spirits of the dead go to) are also in the Undying Lands. After spending a certain amount of time here, elven spirits may be released, whereas the spirits of men remain until the end of time (after which they join Eru in Heaven).
If you are interested in finding more out about this topic, the Silmarillion deals with it in great detail. We are running a Silmarillion Reading Group within the forum, and the first assignment covers this topic.
Don't remain a stranger and be careful not to pick up one of the Professor's books for once you do, you may not be able to put it down.
The Hobbit is a kids book that adults can enjoy. It tells of Bilbo's quest and of his finding of The One Ring, which of course was only then known as a magic ring that made its wearer disappear.
The Lord of the Rings is the epic story of Frodo's quest toward the destroying of The One Ring and with it the Dark Lord Sauron.
The Silmarillion tells the pre-history Tolkien's world Ea, from the creation through the first age, the 3400 plus years of the second age, and the 3000 plus years of the third Age which ended at the end of The Lord of the Rings .
There are other books, but they are of less significance than these three.
You asked a quick question, but never expect a quick answer around here if anyone knows the answer. There are only two ways to receive a quick answer: Ask a complex question for which no one knows the answer or ask a question in our Eyespy in Middle-earth 20 questions game found in our Ivy Bush Tavern.
So are the undying lands and elvish heaven not the same place? I've often wondered what happened to elves who died in middle earth?
Unlike elves, Men remain in the Halls until the End. After the End comes the Second Music of Eru which Men take part in. This is most likely Heaven, and is said to be greater than than the First Music (that which created Ea...earth). So in effect, elves get heaven on earth, while Men get true Heaven afterwards when everything else has ceased to be.
Where does Eru live?
Were the humans in middle earth existentialists as they had not God to dictate morals?
were men made at the same time as men and if so why don't we hear about tham until whats his name "awakens" them?
For more information on these topics read either the opening chapters of the Silmarillion or the comments raised in out Reading Discussion Group.
Ringfacwyn, you are right, Arwen sacrificed her immortality for a mortal life with Aragorn, and that is why she dies, although she lives for many bitter days after the death of Aragorn. Also, Iím not 100% sure on this, but I think that it might be possible for an Elf to die (after a very, very, very, long time) before the end of days comes, and the second music is created, if as Val stated, they donít eventually go to Valinor to have their spirits revitalized.
The reason that elves are not totally overrunning Middle Earth is that they have more restraint in their procreation, as they're not really in such a rush to ping out babies willy-nilly. That and all the bloody wars they seem to have.
but how did the hobbits come about?
Also, if elves were immortal and stayed as young as their children forever wouldn't the world have been completely over populated with elves
If there is some truth to what I said, than that would explain why Arwen died some time after Aragorn. Or could that be simply because she gave herself to Aragorn and a mortal life
If tired of the world elves can die like Arwen of Feanor's mother.
A few people of the other races can also sail to the undying lands but only if they have done something worthy for instance, Gimli, Bilbo, Frodo and Sam.
Pretty Slow Quick Question
- but how would anyone know that for sure, don't we all think that we will always be there for our children.
[Edited on 18/1/2003 by Eolynn]