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Thread: Why was Dior immortal?

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Tauron originally began this thread with the following question.

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Why Could Dior chose from being immortal of being a man...because Lúthien and Beren are both mortal. Does this have anything to do with the maia blood of Lúthien?


Virumor replied

He couldn't really choose... He was killed in Doriath before there was even spoken of a choice... Earendil and Elwing (his daughter) were the first who could choose between being counted to the race of Men or Elves.rAnd about Luthien : she chose Beren and so she chose mortality just like Arwen later on would do.
Well he was not an elf I think.....but a man! I highly doubt that the offspring of two humans can be elven.....
Dior was mortal. In the Decree of Manwe (HoME 5), he proclaims that any people with mortal blood would be mortal, with Earendil, Elwing and their son/s being the only ones who could choose alongst with Erlodn's children. Therfore, Dior, was mortal, as were Elured and Elurin (who problably died of starvation in Doriath, after being kidnapped and dumped in the middle of the forest by the servants of Celegorm, Tale of Years; HoME 11 ) thought they were pretty young when abaonded. (I think Elured was 5 and Elurin 3). And Galador, son of Imrazor and Mithrellas was also mortal.
Of course he was mortal - Beren was a Man, Lúthien was mortal when she returned to Beleriand.

That settles it, then.
Hey Findekano they were that young?!?

Damn cruel of the sons of Fëanor!!! Mandos never let them out!!!
And Virumor that is what I was trying to state.....she was mortal when they had the baby....Dior then becomes mortal ofcourse! But since he got a elven wife Elwing became Peredhil.....see?
Sorry, my dates were quite off/wrong. I took the statement that the sons of Dior weren’t twins from the statement in the Beorian genealogies (HOME 11) that Elured (Here ‘Eldun’) and Elurin (Here ‘Elrun’) were born in the F.A 492 and 496 respectively and died in the sack of the re-made Doriath in 506, yet confusingly Tolkien gives Dior’s death as 511. It seems Tolkien revised this in the Tales of Years (HoME 11) to them being twins and being born in 1st age year 500, and their deaths in 506 ,thus making them 6. I’d just like to add it wasn’t the sons of Fëanor that killed them but the SERVANTS of Celegorm. Maedhros later searched for them, as the Quenta Silmarillion says.
Does anyone think that it is possible that Elured and Elurin were re-incarnated as Elladan and Elrohir?
They were mortal and therfore they couldn't be re-incaranted. Also, Tolkien dropped the idea of Elven re-incarnation, instead saying they were given new bodies not born into their children a.l.a 'Laws and Customs'.
Elrond becoming the father of his uncles? I don't know, could be of course. Would a reincarnated soul remember his/hers former life? And wouldn't Elrond and Celebrian get some form of vision of who their sons were?

I think that since Elured and Elurin where so unbelivably young and died so horribly, they wouldn't have developed enough love for ME, so they felt no need to return. But I'm sure their innocent souls would be let out of the halls of Mandos quite fast, especially if they had someone to look after them. Did their mother Nimloth die too? I bet they wouldn't want to leave her.

I think Elladan and Elrohir were new souls, and that twins simply run in the family. Elrond and Elros were twins too.
Seems that the urge to marry humans also run in the family. Wink Smilie
Oh a post came while I was typing! Ahh I forgot that Elwing wasn't counted among the elves untill she came to Valinor and chose to become one, silly me. Well the conclusion is still the same, no reincarnation. Smile Smilie
Yes Nimloth was killed in the Feanorians attack upon Doriath.

Elured and Elurin were mortal so Namo wouldn't keep them in Mandos they would've passed outside the circles of the world.
Well I am quite surprised! I always assumed that Dior was an Elf! But since he was mortal, that means that he and his wife Nimloth became separated for eternity! What a cruel fate! Does anybody know more about that matter?
Oh but maybe the Valar counted Dior as one of the Firstborn when he 'arrived' in the halls of Mandos and when they ultimately set him free.

Tuor and Idril also had the same problem, coming to think of it. But Tuor was just accounted as one of the Elves later on. I don't think they made Idril human.
The Valar couldn't just 'hand out' mortality and immortality, that was a act of Eru and Eru never sanctioned Dior's immortality since he was a son of two mortals.
Duh...

did you really think i don't know that ?
Well then why did you post this:

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Oh but maybe the Valar counted Dior as one of the Firstborn when he 'arrived' in the halls of Mandos and when they ultimately set him free


[Edited on 30/5/2003 by Findekano]
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Eru never sanctioned Dior's immortality since he was a son of two mortals.
was Luthien truely mortal though, in the same sense that Men are. She was the daughter of an Elf and a Maiar. She did not have Human blood even though she was allowed to leave the confines of the world once she died. It was from her blood that the line of Numenorian kings was enriched with its strength etc.

Do you have anything that Tolkien wrote which proves Dior was mortal? (I'm betting you do, which would be nice as I'd like to read it).
Such lively discussion! Big Smile Smilie

From The Book of Lost Tales, Vol 2: The Nauglafring

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Now fare the long days of Elfinesse unto that time when Tuor dwelt in Gondolin: and children then had Dior the Elf, ...


Now be nice people!
And had Dior been classified as a mortal non-elf, I don't think he could have been labeled as "Thingol's Heir" in the Silmarillion's Geneology Tree II - The descendants of Olwë and Elwë.
So Dior was the son of two mortals, but he was an Elf ?
Seems kinda confusing to me - yet it could be since when Dior recieves the jewel of Luthien he asks himself why the time of Beren and Luthien is so short --- this could indeed point out that he is immortal. (i read that in the Sil)
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was Luthien truely mortal though, in the same sense that Men are. She was the daughter of an Elf and a Maiar. She did not have Human blood even though she was allowed to leave the confines of the world once she died. It was from her blood that the line of Numenorian kings was enriched with its strength etc.


I didn´t think about this Val....yeah it does make sense...
She got the gift of men but that wouldn´t mean that she lost her elf and maia blood.....I mean if then Eru had to drain her blood and replace it with humanWink Smilie
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Now fare the long days of Elfinesse unto that time when Tuor dwelt in Gondolin: and children then had Dior the Elf, ...


And here you completely prove us wrong AllyssaBig Smile Smilie Tongue Smilie

As I already told above, it would be absolutely shocking for me to discover that Dior was a mortal! He was reared among the Elves, he married an Elf maiden, he was then the King of Elves in Doriath... To be counted among the mortals would mean for him eternal separation not only with his wife, but also with almost all friends and companions of his life!
Well crap happensWink Smilie
Alyssa in that mythology Berne was a Gnome, a Elf, and Luthien a dark-elf an the integral element that Beren was a MAN is missing an he is a product of two Elves and therefore a Elf.

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Do you have anything that Tolkien wrote which proves Dior was mortal? (I'm betting you do, which would be nice as I'd like to read it).


Manwe's decree:

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'And this is my [Manwe] decree concerning them: to Eärendil and to Elwing, and to their sons, shall be given leave each to choose freely to which kindred their fates shall be joined, and under which kindred they shall be judged.'"
"Then Eärendil said to Elwing: 'Choose thou, for now I am weary of the world.' And Elwing chose to be judged among the Firstborn Children of Ilúvatar, because of Lúthien; and for her sake Eärendil chose alike...

Published Silmarillion

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Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me."
Early Quenta Silmarillion; HoME 5

From these quotes one can see that Dior was mortal. He died in F.A 506 and Earendil comes to Aman in F.A 542 (I think, I do not have T.O.Y with me at the mo.) therfore Dior's fate was already sealed and Manwe's decree meant that all Peredhil descended from Earendil and Elwing could choose, implying that Dior, Elured and Elurin couldn't and didn't choose and this problem hadn't before occureed-no MORTAL had ever set foot on Aman and Dior was mortal since he was a descendant of two mortals.

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And had Dior been classified as a mortal non-elf, I don't think he could have been labeled as "Thingol's Heir" in the Silmarillion Genealogy Tree II - The descendants of Olwë and Elwë


That was the title that he 'labelled' himself with, after Doriath was sacked, since it is true he WAS Thingol's heir, and it was a position of utmost 'respect' and it has little do with his mortality/immortality.

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I am the first of the Peredhil (Half-Elven) but I am also heir of King Elwe, the Eluchil


Also from the same essay:

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But it was told in the legend of Beren and Luthien that Luthien learned Beren's native tongue during their long journeys together and ever after used it in their speech together. Not long before they came at last back to the borders of Doriath he asked her why she did so, since her own tongue was richer and more beautiful. Then she became silent and her eyes seemed to look far away before she answered: 'Why? Because I must forsake thee, or else forsake my own people and become one of the children of Men. Since I will never forsake thee, I must learn the speech of thy kin, and mine.'


Note she was of the 'children of men' (As she says so herself he is mortal, a man, a hot man at that, or hot woman) and therefore is no mortal and this passage strongly implies she is a mortal man now. (Both quotes from the Problem of Ros, HoME 11

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As I already told above, it would be absolutely shocking for me to discover that Dior was a mortal! He was reared among the Elves, he married an Elf maiden, he was then the King of Elves in Doriath... To be counted among the mortals would mean for him eternal separation not only with his wife, but also with almost all friends and companions of his life!


As Aule said err..Asterix's happen Wink Smilie
Okay, I'm now convinced that Dior was mortal. Happy Elf Smilie
Well done, Findekano!

But what about the "unless other doom be granted to them; " clause? What if Dior was one of the 'exceptions'?

However, you are quite correct in that Dior was usually refered to as 'Peredhil' , not an elf.
Well now I am really confuse.....shall we count him as an elf and immortal or a man and mortal?
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But what about the "unless other doom be granted to them; " clause? What if Dior was one of the 'exceptions'?


Well Manwe's decree was issued some time after Dior's choice was given, either by Namo or Manwe, though of course it would have to be Manwe, since he was the only one who could have 'direct' discourse with Eru and thus he must have consulted him prior to the judgement or acted on what he though was Eru's wishes.
Hello!!!
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Well now I am really confuse.....shall we count him as an elf and immortal or a man and mortal?



???
As Findekano said I think he was a mortal.
Even though the decree was made after Dior's death, he could still have been the exception. To me, Manwe's decree reads: "Aside from Earendil's family, everyone with human blood is mortal, unless I make an exception for them".

Dior could very well have been the exception that Manwe was talking about, but since Dior's body was already destroyed, he did not need to include him specifically in the decree, unlike Earendil etc.

Summary: I think that Dior was immortal. He was the exception to the rule. (As far as I know, there weren't any others who could be.)
I think that the 'exceptions to the rule' were Elwing, Earendil and his descendants. Note his wording, he doesn't say everyone exempt from Earendil's family, but all people with mortal blood, including Earendil's family and therfore they are the 'exceptions'
Yes, those darned human genes just plain overide their elven counterparts, deleting the extreme longevity attribute, requiring devine providence's intervention to give this elven attribute to the half-elven.
There's one problem: wouldn't this apply to Elwing as well if Dior is mortal? I mean, Manwe has to be consistent or he's just an arbitrary tyrant, right? I agree with the position stated elsewhere (I can't remember whom to credit) that the Half-Elven "default" to Quendi until and unless they choose to embrace the Gift of Men, but that once such a choice is made their descendants are bound by it. I also concur with another statement whose author I forget that the Elves of Doriath would have never consented to rule by a mortal.
Lets say Dior is completely mortal then since both his parents were. Do you really think Doriath would stand to have a mere mortal rule the throne? I'm sure they loved him all and technically he is the heir to the thrown, but however that may be, you don't think they'd the elves would make the exception and usurp the title of king from him?

Unless of course we have decided that Dior was indeed Half-Elven and if given the choice before his untimely death he may have choosen to be of the Eldar?
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There's one problem: wouldn't this apply to Elwing as well if Dior is mortal?

Dior is the son of two mortals : Beren, a Man, and Lúthien, an Elf who became as a mortal woman upon her return to Beleriand.

Elwing is the daughter of Dior, a mortal, and Nimloth, a Sindarin Elf... hence Elwing is Half-elven but Dior is not.

At least, that's the way I see it.
Moderator Smilie Grondy deleted his joke post from above, because it flew like a lead balloon due to his misapplying the wrong historical data to the discussion taking place. Sorry
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Virumor
Elwing is the daughter of Dior, a mortal, and Nimloth, a Sindarin Elf... hence Elwing is Half-elven but Dior is not.

I forgot about Nimloth. When it comes to the union between Elves and men Tolkien has seem to gone into somewhat extensive detail on each union. Beren & Luthien, Tuor & Idril, Aragorn & Arwen. Earendil & Elwing is as debatable as Dior & Nimloth. Either way though I never thought of Dior and Nimloth as one of the classic unions. I bet if you were to make Tolkien fans take a little quiz and ask them to name each union between Elves and Men 75% would not mention Dior & Nimloth.
Well, there's also Imrâzor & Mithrellas..
This is a wonderful thread to read if your interested in the laws of Elven blood lines. For those who were involved it would be great to know if minds have changed after a few years.

I need to read deeply in order to respond to the smallest of questions. My admiration for you all is great.