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Thread: The House of Finwe: what's your opinion?

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Bugfeanor originally began this thread with the following post which was unfortunately lost in transferral from the old site.

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Aule stated:

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: Aul never creates anything for the desire to possess something.....he has no desire for material things....he just wants to create and mine.....
That behavior is something you should encourage.....not the behavior of Fanor....Greedely creates the sils and his sons with their ******* oath!


Ringfacwen stated:

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: I can`t help but like the bad guys. ITA that Feanor should be the one hated. He was a real dumb***.



When I've seen this, I said to myself: "Well, Bugy, it can no longer go on like this! So many people with a 'Noldor problem' and no place to get it out of their system!"
So I've decided to open a new post where all the Noldor fans could come and say what they think about these great Eldar, which Elf, House and City is their favourite and why, etc. This thread will be called "The House of Finwe: what's your opinion?" As soon as any of u think of a better name, please post it here and I'll ask Val or Grondy to change it, if it's possible!

Also, I'd like to ask all those that have a problem with the Noldor (for different reasons),
to come here and share them with us! I'll try to answer every question u have about them, as long as I can.

Namarie!

P.S.: I would like any Counsil Member to inform me if there's something wrong with this thread and it should be moved or even removed! I specified my reasons for initiating it above and I don't want to leave the impression that I'm trying to create an exclusive club or smth like that; it's not my intention! I just want the Noldor fans to have a place of gathering, where they could debate everything related to the House of Finwe!

Thank you!


I replied with

Okay, I'll join in with a few comments to get going...

To me, the Noldor always fell into three catagories, and they were defined by the three sons of Finwe.

The House of Feanor, I always see as being proud, often arrogant, and selfish. They were master craftsmen, but unlike Aule, they coverted their creations.

The House of Fingolfin, I see as being brave and noble. They are great warriors and great leaders, but often rash in the heat of the moment.

The House of Finarfin. Of the three Houses, this one seems the one most content with their lives. They seem wise and just, prefering a peaceful solution if they could avoid war. Saying that, they certainly lacked no courage. To me, they seem to be the House most influenced by the blood of the Vanyar flowing through their veins.
Thanks for your comment, Val; I really apreciated! Btw, if I may add a little comment to your description: I think u forgot the 'brave' part of the House of Feanor! (sorry, couldn't help myself! hehe)

As for the rest, what can I say? U must have an opinion, right? I don't care what is it, you're all welcomed to post here! But, if u need a push, I'll go first ...

Why do I like the Noldor that much? IMHO, they are the most creative Eldar; they did learn mostly from Aule, after all!!! Also, their nature was creative too ...
Of course, my favourite House of the Noldor is Feanor's! I subscribe to what Val had to say about them, yet I think he left out some other characteristics: self determination, strong will, eagerness and courage.
The House of Fingolfin is almost as great as the first one; it gave true leaders (Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon and Gil-galad - all of them High Kings of the Noldor!), but it also gave hope (don't forget that Earendil is the son of Idril, Turgon's daughter!).
Two of my dearest characters belong to the House of Finarfin: Finrod and Galadriel. They are the wisest Noldor and Felagund is the sincerest friend Men ever had!

My favourite Elf: Feanor! Why? Just read the chapters concerning him, in the Silm! (especially chapter 6)

My favourite city: Tirion upon Tuna! It is the fairest city of the Elves! Oh, yea ... Gondolin's great, too, but stiil just an image of Tirion!

OK, done! I'm expecting your posts now!

Namarie!
I love the Noldor! Theyre without a doubt my favorite out of all the Elves (not to mention the greatest of all the Elves)! I have to say that with a few exceptions, I pretty much love the whole House of Finwe, but if I were forced to choose between the three Houses mentioned I would have to say that my favorite House is the House of Finarfin (Finrod and Galadriel are two of my most favorite Elves also).

Next for me would be the House of Fingolfin (Im extremely partial toward the bloodline of Indis the fair). I love Fingolfin (chilling on my avatar), Fingon, and Turgon. Fingolfin is definitely way up there on my list of all time favorite Elves.

Sorry but my least favorite House of the three is the House of Feanor. I respect Feanor for being the greatest and most powerful of all the Noldor, but he did way too many things that really ticked me off. IMHO, Feanor is the first bad apple out of all the Elves, and really the second bad apple next to Melkor. I cant forgive him for his role in the Kinslaying of Alqualonde, and for leaving Fingolfin and the rest of the Noldor out to dry. I dont have much love for the sons of Feanor either, but I do really like Maedhros and Maglor.

All hail the Noldor, the greatest of the Children of Illuvatar! Elf Smilie
One thing you can say for Fanor, without him our epic would certainly have been different, possibly it would have been relegated to the dustbin of history.
So here's to Fanor! Alcoholic Smilie Long may his story be told.
And thank you J.R.R.T., for bringing him to our attention. I
First of all, thanks for posting here, Elf-stone and Grondy!

Elf-stone, you're my first Noldor fan! *praises Eru for that* So, I've got myself a Fingolfin on my head, right? *in the good Feanorian tradition, tries to get rid of his younger brother!* hehe, jk! You're more than welcomed here, full brother in heart! May all your House soon join you!

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IMHO, Feanor is the first bad apple out of all the Elves, and really the second bad apple next to Melkor.


Well, brother, let's not forget the really bad apples: Sauron, the Balrogs, Ungoliant etc. I don't think Feanor could compete with them! I also think his deeds were not so terrible until he swore that d**n oath! And even after that, u have to understand his sole purpose was to destroy Morgoth; anybody who stood in his path was doomed!

And, Grondy, long will his story be told, indeed; and long will people wonder to hear his great deeds!
Now, while waiting for people to post here, I'd like to repeat what Elfstone said: "All hail the Noldor, the greatest of the Children of Iluvatar!"

Namarie!

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"All hail the Noldor, the greatest of the Children of Iluvatar!"
Can you imagine what it must have looked like to see a full army of Noldor when they were at their peak (for instance, when Turgon's army arrived from Gondolin). They must have been truely awesome in battle. PJ manages to show us a little of how it could have been with his shots of the Last Alliance at the beginning of FotR. Whatever, being stronger and more athletic than Men, they must have been terrible opponents to have to face in battle.

I often try to place myself in the places of those early Men, the Edain, when they first came into contact with the elves. Their cultures and technologies were so much more advanced, it must have been similar to us coming across an advanced alien society now days.

What I like also is the way the Noldor took those early Men and taught them. Human's in contrast have a terrible habit of making war on anything different that they find.
Mae govannen!

Yeah, Val, it must have been more than impressive: every Noldor army would've faced little resistance when they came back to ME!

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What I like also is the way the Noldor took those early Men and taught them. Human's in contrast have a terrible habit of making war on anything different that they find.


Excellent put, Val: human intollerance frightens me! As for the Noldor, they were the most willing to teach Men, whom they befriended and took in thei service.

Welcome, Ringfacwen! I'm always glad to meet a HoF fan, and especially a Feanorian! Concerning the 'Fingolfin' part, what can I say? Join Elfstone: now there are two of u! Wink Smilie hehehe

Namarie!
I dont think that Fanor was evil.....just too darn proud....but one thing I do think is that if Morgoth the Accursed had not slain Finw, Fanor would not have been so rash to abandon Aman and assail Morgoth.....because Finw was dearer to Fanor then all the jewels in Arda even the Sils....so here is to Morgoth for slaying Finw Alcoholic Smilie and starting this great tale.Big Smile Smilie

Still I do not like the manner of the Golodhrim....my way is betterOrc With Thumbs Up Smilie
I have mixed feelings about the house of Feanor : they are all arrogant twits, except maybe Maglor a bit. At least he took pity on Elrond and Elros. But otherwise, despite their stupid actions and atrocities, at least they started some excitement in Middle-Earth (together with good old Morgoth).

The house of Fingolfin is better : Fingolfin looked great by troubling Morgoth's day, although it was a waste of time and energy (and a waste of life too maybe); his children aren't that great though.

The house of Finarfin is probably best : they were the most noble and wise, especially Finrod - to me he is the perfect (Elvish) son-in-law. If there were a movie about the Silmarillion (*knocks wood*) i think all gals would replace their Legolamb-posters by Finrod-posters. Galadriel is cool too - she's a woman with balls. The other kids of Finarfin aren't special.

And about Finwe himself : i didn't like it that much that he preferred his son Feanor.

Thx for your posts, Aule and Vir! I'll try to explain some of Noldor actions!

First of all, Aule, I'd like to say I'm surprised: I thought u hated Feanor! I was mistaking - nothing new there - so ...
That's just my opinion too: Feanor cared for his father a lot more than for those Silms! This should answer your question too, Vir (why did Finwe preferred Feanor?), though it's not the only explanation.

I must say I'm a bit concerned about your opinion on Morgoth Big Laugh Smilie That Black Foe of the World did some n***y stuff after all! I have to admit, though, that the story wouldn't even be a 'story' without the good old Constrainer! hehehe As for Fingolfin's sons, I think they are among the greatest Eldar Kings ever! I especially like Fingon for saving Maedhros and for his valiant stand against Gothmog; he died a hero's death, just like his uncle Feanor! (actually, just like most of his relatives) And let's not forget Ereinion Gil-galad whou bravely fought with Sauron, mortaly wounding him, though he paid for that with his life! May all the Noldor find their peace in Mandos' Halls!

Namarie!

Where in my post does it say that I do not hate Fanor? I really despise the guy for what he did.....all the evil he brought....but I hate his sons even more.....stuck up spoiled brats....someone mustve slapped them really hard over the side of their head with a sledgehammer when they were young.....especiallly Caranthir! he is an elf I would gladly slay!
The sons of Feanor were just as rash as their father; Melkor getting involved and causing them troubles didn't make it any better! U also have to remember that they've always been in the first line of defence against Morgoth; that should count for smth!

As for Feanor's deeds, my signature should answer u, Aule!

Namarie!
I think one of the beauties of Tolkien's work (that is often ignored by his critics) is that although The Silmarillion contains nothing more than brief sketches of even the major characters, Tolkien gives you enough information to get a feel for what they were like.
For my money:
Maedhros: trying to control his brothers after Feanor's death, and hold them to behave decently, following Fingolfin's lead. Undone by the Oath, ends up hating what he has become...a tragic figure.
Maglor: Tries to support Meadhros but equally undone by the Oath.
Celegorm: more interested in enjoying himself hunting etc. than anything else, except his loyalty to what he thinks Feanor would have done.
Caranthir: Self-serving and greedy but probably not stupid enough to underestimate the dangers of (for example) attacking Doriath.
Curufin: Of all the sons, the most like their father - skilled in crafts and more interested in what he can achieve than what good his works could do. This attitude eventually leads him into outright evil.
Amras and Amrod: They seem to me to be much younger than the other brothers and therefore have a lesser say in what goes on. In temprement similar to Celegorm.

So you can usually lump the brothers together in terms of what action they took, but they would often have different motives for doing so.
Hey, JonnieA! Welcome to my little piece of Heaven here on PT! Thx for your interesting opinions about Feanor's sons; I have to say they're not too far from my own!

So, what do u think about Feanor himself? Or the other Noldor? I'm very curious to know!

Namarie!
That is a pretty good comparison JonnieA. Cool Elf Smilie
Indeed it was..

And Bugy...even though the sons of Fanor hated Morgoth and sought to overthrow his realm and slay him...they should realise that what Manw(or was it Nmo?) says is the plain truth: Not ever within the confines of Arda or anywhere else will the Eruhini ever be able to overcome an ex-Aratar like Morgoth! This can also be seen in the Dagor Dagorath....Trin cannot fight Morgoth alone...thats why he has Enw and Tulkas with him....although it is propably Tulkas that will wrestle with Morgoth and Enw helps Trin make the final blow so that Aul and the Khazd can rebuild Arda!Wink Smilie

Thats my opinion of the sons of Fanor...stupid they were....they shouldve seeked help from the Aratar to destroy Morgoth!
oh well....I respect your love for them Bugy me ol' mate

Had to edit this post since I mixed up Dagorlad with Dagorath as virumor pointed out...thanks mate Wink Smilie

[Edited on 6/11/2003 by Aul]
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This can also be seen in the Dagor Dagorlad....Trin cannot fight Morgoth alone...thats why he has Enw and Tulkas with him....although it is propably Tulkas that will wrestle with Morgoth and Enw helps Trin make the final blow so that Aul and the Khazd can rebuild Arda!


I totally agree with you Mahal, but that battle you mentioned is not Dagor Dagorlad, but Dagor Dagorath Wink Smilie
Dagor Dagorlad was the battle before the gates of Mordor at the end of the Second Age.

And about the sons of Feanor : they did what was necessary; the Valar are also to blame in what happened : Morgoth totally messed up Valinor, he poisoned the minds of the Noldor, killed the Two Trees, killed Finwe, stole the Silmarils so it was totally normal that the sons of Feanor went berserk. The Valar, with all their wisdom, still didn't do anything : they just waited for what to happen, while they should have known that the Noldor wouldn't just calmly stay behind.

So, with the Valar sitting in their lazy couches, the Noldor didn't really have another option than to leave Valinor. It's pretty hard just staying behind and doing nothing while the murderer or your father and thief of your greatest work gets away, right?

[Edited on 6/11/2003 by virumor]
Yes I agree virumor.....the Valar did always sit and wait idle to see what happened....but I always wanted to help them....but that uptight friggin Manw is a Pussycat at getting his wish through...telling us that he is like the highest ambassador for Eru here on Arda...Tongue Smilie hehehe
but still they did not have to take that cursed oath...look at Fingolfins and the Finarfins houses...did they take that damned oath? NO!
but yeah...I see what you are getting at...and btw I still believe that if Finw hadnt been slain it would turn out REALLY different...maybe for the betterWink Smilie

Moderator Smilie Watch you language please Aule.

[Edited on 6/11/2003 by Valedhelgwath]
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look at Fingolfins and the Finarfins houses...did they take that **** ed oath?


Nope they didn't take the oath, but Fingolfin was also obliged to leave Valinor because he had told Feanor earlier he would follow him... but Feanor later on betrayed them of course by burning the ships of the Teleri.

And members of Finarfin's house left too, because they were very close friends with Fingolfin's house or because they desired to see what lands there were outside Aman and possibly reign there (Galadriel). Only Finarfin was wise enough and didn't go. (let's not call him a weasel)

About the Finwe thing... i personally think Feanor would still go after his Silmarils even if Finwe was still alive - i think Finwe would have followed his son to Beleriand even. Don't forget Feanor only cared for his father and the Silmarils, and his father pretty much only cared for Feanor.

But i think Finwe could have calmed down his son a bit, so it's possible Feanor wouldn't have been killed in Beleriand in the very first fight there. Who knows.
Wow, Vir, I really agree with u on almost everything u've said! I'd like to add just this: have anyone ever wondered why the Valar's possible mistakes are somewhat put aside (just as Melkor's good deeds! hey, I don't care about his intentions!)?

I mean, if u think of it, the Valar interfered with Eru's plan when they brought the Elves to Valinor; if He would've wanted this, don't u think He would've awaken them there? Why bother, tell me? I don't judge their intentions, I know they meant well, yet ... see my signature! It sums it quite well!

And how about setting Melkor free?!? Were the Elves even asked what they think about this? My wild guess is ... NOOO! And Aule, though I still think u're the greatest Vala, I've always considered Ulmo to be the most attuned to Eru's plan: he helped both the Exiled Noldor and the new come Men! Plus, he seems to be the only Vala that opposes the summons in the beginning, as well as Melkor's release! That is because Tulkas always had a problem with Melkor, so he cannot count!

Oh, and I do revere Aule! *bows*

Namarie!
Yeah I know that Finw wouldve possibly also gone with Fanor to retrieve the Silmarils from Morgoth but Fanor wouldnt have taken that accursed oath and brought Nmos doom upon his house....btw why would they be banished from Aman just because they left? If Finw was with Fanor then I hardly think that the kinslaying at Alqualond wouldve taken place.....at all! So I think that if Morgoth hadnt slain Finw...the Noldor wouldve been happier...and the Noldor wouldnt have followed Fanor but Finw, High King of the Noldor....you see my point virumor or am I speaking in riddles again? hehehe
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the Noldor wouldve been happier...and the Noldor wouldnt have followed Fanor but Finw, High King of the Noldor....you see my point virumor or am I speaking in riddles again? hehehe


I think Finwe would have given his crown over to Feanor if he was still alive... Feanor would really want to go after Morgoth and Finwe who loved his son (too) dearly, wouldn't be able to say no - and because Feanor would want all Noldor (and Finwe) to follow him Finwe would just proclaim Feanor to be King and tell the rest of the Noldor to follow Feanor. That is my opinion.
But anyhow, it's highly probably that with Finwe still alive (but crownless), the Noldor would form one force under Feanor's banner (whether they like it or not) and that Morgoth would have had more troubles in keeping his precious jewelry. And indeed, no kinslaying nor oaths.

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I mean, if u think of it, the Valar interfered with Eru's plan when they brought the Elves to Valinor; if He would've wanted this, don't u think He would've awaken them there? Why bother, tell me? I don't judge their intentions, I know they meant well, yet ... see my signature! It sums it quite well!


This is very interesting and true, bugy. When Orome discovered the Eldar in Cuivienen and when the other Valar heard about this, they wanted the Eldar to live with them in Valinor, because they longed for company and they always waited impatiently for the Eldar to show up. (see Aule)

So indeed, when they brought the Eldar to Valinor maybe they didn't follow Eru's plan and it was a more or less 'selfish' act, because by bringing the Elves to Valinor and spending almost all their time with their 'pets' in Valinor (the way i see the Elves in Valinor to be) they neglected the Atani who awake in Endor, so that Morgoth could do what he wanted with them... and so the Valar are also to blame for the arrival of Dark Men, Men who were sympathetic first for Morgoth and later for Sauron.

If the Valar took more care of Men too, it could've been that Men weren't corrupted by Morgoth. But of course, the Valar never knew well what they had to do with the Atani, because Manwe didn't really get what was Eru's intention with them. (which was Eru's intention)

I personally think the Valar neglected Men in the first age, but they corrected their mistakes by granting some of them a longer life and the isle of Numenor; also in the third age when they sent the Istari they made almost everything up.

Anyway, i think Eru awoke the Elves far far away from Aman because he wanted some diversion in the race of Elves : some stayed behind and formed the Avari, some stayed at the river Anduin, some stayed in Beleriand, some reached Aman faster than others, etc.

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And how about setting Melkor free?!? Were the Elves even asked what they think about this? My wild guess is ... NOOO! And Aule, though I still think u're the greatest Vala, I've always considered Ulmo to be the most attuned to Eru's plan: he helped both the Exiled Noldor and the new come Men! Plus, he seems to be the only Vala that opposes the summons in the beginning, as well as Melkor's release!


Well, in my opinion the Elves shouldn't have a voice in problems concerning Ainur. The Valar have dominion over Arda and the children of Eru so it's up to them.

About Ulmo : yes he never left the Exiles behind and i think by speaking to Tuor and sending him to Gondolin he played a decisive part in the wars of Beleriand too !
Don't forget Earendil was Tuor's son. So i agree that Ulmo understood best what were Eru's plans; Manwe is closest to Eru, he 'negotiates' with Eru, but he doesn't understand best what's going on : that's Ulmo. Of course, it's Namo who knows best what is going to happen, but it's Ulmo who understands best why it happens.


[Edited on 7/11/2003 by virumor]
Yes I agree that Finw loved Fanor more dearily than anything else same as Fanor loved Finw more than the Silmarils....but I do not think that he would surrender his crown just yet...I believe that he would give Fanor the crown after he has grown into being a good king in Finws eyes.....and Ulmo is indeed the one that has most understanding of Erus intentions.
This whole Finwe-Feanor bussiness: Finwe would've not passed the crown to Feanor as Feanor would've not ask him to do so! Yet, while Finwe would've followed his son into Exile, I guess no Noldo would've stayed in Valinor! And yes, Morgoth would've been in a much greater trouble ...

I think the Elves say somewhere in the Sil that the Music stayed mostly in the water and that's why Ulmo understood it the best! Corect me if I'm wrong ...

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Well, in my opinion the Elves shouldn't have a voice in problems concerning Ainur. The Valar have dominion over Arda and the children of Eru so it's up to them.


This is the only thing I disagree in your post, vir; the rest are my thoughts too! Yet, pls tell me, what do u think would've happened if Melkor wasn't released? How much of the harm could've been avoided?

Namarie!
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This is the only thing I disagree in your post, vir; the rest are my thoughts too! Yet, pls tell me, what do u think would've happened if Melkor wasn't released? How much of the harm could've been avoided?


Well, the Elves who were bothered by Melkor didn't survive, and the other Elves didn't really have an idea of what was going on. The Vanyar, Noldor and others didn't know about Melkor, they only knew there was something who made some of their kin disappear in Endor.

Well, the Valar weren't allowed to imprison Melkor for all time... i think Manw consulted Eru and Eru told Manw to give Melkor another chance, or maybe Manw - who couldn't understand evil as he had no evil in him himself - still thought Melkor could become good. I dunno.

Anyway : of course, if Melkor had been in jail for all time, then we wouldn't have a Silmarillion and we wouldn't have a LOTR at all. So i don't really think it would be for the better if Melkor would be in prison for all time...

Without evil, the whole history of Arda would be completely different.

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This whole Finwe-Feanor bussiness: Finwe would've not passed the crown to Feanor as Feanor would've not ask him to do so! Yet, while Finwe would've followed his son into Exile, I guess no Noldo would've stayed in Valinor! And yes, Morgoth would've been in a much greater trouble ...


I'm pretty sure Finw would give his crown to Fanor, because Finw who cared way too much for his son, would believe that in the current time of termoil, in a time of future battling with Morgoth, the Noldor would need strong and firm leadership - and Finw would think his firstborn is the best man for that. Love is blind, even the love of a father for his son.

And i don't think every Noldo would have left Valinor if Finw would have left; i'm pretty sure Finw would ask his son Finarfin and his house to stay behind, and Finarfin would agree to this. After all, Finarfin is the most wise of the three sons of Finw.

Of course, Finarfin's children would most likely join Fingolfin to Beleriand. Anyway, not all Noldor would have left. Whether the Noldor would have been able to defeat Morgoth's armies in this situation : highly probable. Whether they'd be able to defeat Morgoth : never.

This is how i see it.

[Edited on 8/11/2003 by virumor]
Yes, I see your point: no Morgoth, no Silm, LotR etc. Yet I was talking kind of theoretically here, and the thruth is that in theory, the evil that took place could've been avoided; too bad it wasn't! That's all I'm saying!

Namarie!
Getting back to Feanor...

I think there is no getting away from the fact that he is the most Human of all Tolkien's characters. His motives are so much more understandable than anyone else's in the whole saga. His early life is driven by curiosity, and supported by the love of his father. He is the only child of a king, lord of a great people and as he grows up he will have become aware of just how gifted he was...how easily he could understand and create things, and discover things unknown to anyone else; and how quickly he could outstrip his tutors such as Mahtan. So, naturally he becomes arrogant and obsessed with his crafts.
Because his mother is dead he is particularly close to his Dad, who is incapable of accepting her death for a long time. When Finwe finally does recover, he marries a foreigner who bears him two sons. Feanor is fully grown by now - why would he want to have anything to do with them? And because of this distance he will always view them as strangers and potential usurpers.
He marries but becomes estranged from his wife (self-imposed pressure of work - a very modern circumstance!) but dotes on his sons, probably because in some strange way he sees them as some sort of handywork too.
Then he takes this driving ambition and overwhelming skill and creates the Silmarils, which even the Valar marvel at - and of course the self-belief goes into overdrive. So when the jewels are stolen and his Dad murdered he doesn't exactly deal with it calmly, in fact he goes off the rails with rage. Frankly, in his position you'd have had to tie me down to stop me from going charging into Alqualonde with my sword drawn. All the works and self-esteem of his long and fruitful life were being ripped away from him.
He must have felt so hemmed in - trusted friends whisper that Indis' sons are plotting against him, the Valar have banished him for a time and there doesn't seem any easy way of pursuing Morgoth. And from the point of view of Feanor (and probably from most objective viewpoints) the Noldor were effectively prisoners in Valinor, so the only cure for all his troubles is to get the hell out, and take as many warriors with him as possible.
I suspect Feanor would have known how hopeles it would be taking the war to Morgoth even before he left Valinor, to me he is the least stupid of all Tolkien's characters (note least stupid does not equal most wise). But he had nothing else to live for and was happy to drag his people (including his sons) along. This is in keeping with early Anglo-Saxon notions of kingship - the king's household were expected to follow him to the death. To me, this is the most unpleasant side of Feanor's character - it shows he would not have made a good long term king. But at least I can understand it.

Unfortunately, most of the members of the lines of Fingolfin and Finarfin seem mostly to have been motivated only by trying to 'do the right thing', which is all well and good but can be a touch dull. Don't get me wrong, given the choice I would have been tucked up nice and safe in Tirion with Finarfin, but my point is that Feanor has more character than the rest of the Noldor put together.

I still have a big soft spot for Fingolfin though - the first time I read the Silmarillion his fight with Morgoth was the highlight - I think I re-read that bit a dozen times before I continued.

Oops! Didn't realise how long this post was getting. Hope this is enough for you, Bugy!
Yes, now bugyfeanor will have enough material for his coming essay on Fanor. Be sure to copyright that post, JonnieA !
Hahahahhaa.....I still dont like Fanor.....Finw was the father of the heroes so I like him.....Fingolfin and Finarfin are cool....but the house of Finarfin is the greatest elves ever lived......but Fingolfins house is cool tooTongue Smilie
First of all, I would like to thank u, JonnieA, for your GREAT post! Yes, vir, when I'll decide to write an essay on Feanor, I'll have plenty of material to do it! BWAAAAAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA

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His early life is driven by curiosity...


Curiosity leads to knowledge, in the end ... And if not properly guided, knowledge leads to darkness (just see what happened to Melkor!).

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And from the point of view of Feanor (and probably from most objective viewpoints) the Noldor were effectively prisoners in Valinor, so the only cure for all his troubles is to get the hell out, and take as many warriors with him as possible.


So true! I mean, the Valar told them they could go freely as they've come; yet they were brought upon an island, for Eru's sake! Would the Valar give them an island (preferably the same) to return to Middle-earth? I don't think so!

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But he had nothing else to live for and was happy to drag his people (including his sons) along. This is in keeping with early Anglo-Saxon notions of kingship - the king's household were expected to follow him to the death.


Yes, exactly: they should've followed him as their new King! I think they were the first Eldar who didn't follow their rightful ruler!

Thx for resuscitating the thread!

Namarie!

About the sons of Finw... i have already mentioned in another thread how i feel about them : all three have their abilities and are expert in those abilities, but all three also lack : Fanor is greatest in craft and spirit, but is an arrogant, ambitious person, Fingolfin is greatest warrior and a big champion, but he is not that smart - i mean often his heart takes over his mind. Finarfin is the most noble and wise, but he seems to be the less in spirit.

I think it was impossible for all three sons to cooperate together or really treat each other like brothers, but if they had done that, then the Noldor would've been the greatest of the Noldor and a very hard nut to crack for Morgoth.

I personally like Finarfin's house the most, especially because of Finrod and Galadriel, which are probably my favourite Elves (i am not an Elf-friend though :P).

[Edited on 22/11/2003 by virumor]

[Edited on 22/11/2003 by Allyssa]

[Edited on 23/11/2003 by virumor]
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Moderator Smilie NOTE Portions of this post and those following were moved by Grondmaster to the new thread Why Didn't the Valar Come to the Rescue of the Noldor Sooner
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[Edited on 29/11/2003 by Grondmaster]
I must admit that the first time I read the Sil I saw Feanor as a real villain of the work, but each time I re-read it I found more in his attitude to sympathise with. Sure, Celegorm and Curufin are a nasty pair, but Maedhros is shown as one of the most noble characters in the story, and Maglor with him. It is because of their sense of honour, that their word is their bond, that they adhere to the Oath and follow it's lead down into ruin. This is a portrayed as a great tragedy and rightly so - it is a tragedy because they are good people driven to do evil. If they are evil to begin with there is no tragedy.
Caranthir is another one of the brothers who seems to get bad press - so what if his nickname is 'The Dark' - maybe he just has exceptionally black hair? He deals nobly with Haleth (unless I am getting my brothers muddled up, no copy of the Sil to hand) and what is wrong with making money from trading with Dwarves?

I also recall someone earlier in the thread accusing Feanor of being greedy - at what point in the story does he ever want possession of anything that is not rightly his? Ambitious and arrogant he certainly is, but not greedy.


[Edited on 29/11/2003 by Grondmaster]
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I also recall someone earlier in the thread accusing Feanor of being greedy - at what point in the story does he ever want possession of anything that is not rightly his? Ambitious and arrogant he certainly is, but not greedy.


Yes JonnieA...It was I who said that....But it was just a wrong choice of word....my english vocabulary is very small so deal with it heheheheTongue Smilie
I was aiming for what you said: Ambitious and (the main important thing) arrogant

So sorry for the misunderstanding there JonnieA Smoke Smilie
What a great thread this is! So many interesting comments.

Aule: sorry, it is very arrogant of me to assume everyone else has English as their mother langauge just because I do...I really admire people from other countries who take the trouble to read and discuss Tolkien in English. Obviously, because he was a professor of langauges he had a natural talent for using the sounds of even his invented languages to suggest certain feelings and emotions if the reader is English too. I guess that a lot of that must be lost when translated. For me, his writings rise above being 'just another fantasy' principally because of this factor - when you read his works, and hear the words in your head it just sounds so right..it's almost like magic.

[Edited on 29/11/2003 by Grondmaster]
Moderator Smilie Okay we can now continue with The House of Finw: what's your opinion, as I have moved the extraneous discussion to:
Why Didn't the Valar Come to the Rescue of the Noldor Sooner. Moderator Smilie

Happy Elf Smilie
I think we should split this thread right now because we are already off-topic for quite a bit now.

[Edited on 29/11/2003 by Grondmaster]
OK, Feanor's fan is back in the house! Nice topic "Why Didn't the Valar Come to the Rescue of the Noldor Sooner"! I'll surely post there!

But for now, let's return to the Noldor, OK? I really like what u have said, JonnieA; especially the 'Dark Caranthir' part, as he's my second favourite Feanor's son after Maedhros! Indeed, dark complexion does not necesarely mean dark character!

Ambitious and arrogant, hmmm ... Oh, that's Feanor, right?! Great description, my friends, though a bit simplist to my taste! (and do not get me started on a Feanor essay! it's for your own good!)

Namarie!
Feanor was tragic, the greatest of the Noldor, master craftsman, i'm not suprised at what happened after Melkor and his fathers murder, such a waste, he could of done much against the enemy united with Fingolfin.
Fingolfin was noble, such bravery to take on the might of the greatest of the Valar and do him damage.
Such a shame internal matters (lies fed by Melkor) seperated the brothers.
Feanor you may say should of kept his head, but he was a fiery spirit, his body was consumed by it!
The Noldor are the greatest of Elves in my opinion.
Welcome to the club, Isildur! It's great to have u here!
Who knows, maybe in a month or so I'll even post that essay I'm threatening u with! Bwaaaaahaaaahha!

Namarie!
The biggest problem with Feanor i have is that he caused one Kinslaying directly and he burned the ships from the Teleri, and also because he was convinced he had the right to use their ships because the Noldor built the Teleri their city (and so he thought the Noldor were better than the Teleri). This shows a bit of a fascistoid character Feanor has.

He also caused the other two Kinslayings indirectly because just before he died at the 'hands' of the Balrogs he saw the Thangorodrim and understood the Noldor would never conquer it -- but instead of saying to his sons 'hey sons, leave the oath and let's get back we are doomed here' he just made them continue and by this ruined the Noldor.

The foolish actions of his sons caused by his own foolish actions divided the Noldor in Beleriand which led Morgoth to a very easy victory. Don't forget at the end of the First Age Morgoth's victory was complete : Nargothrond ruined, Gondolin ruined, Doriath ruined, all the mighty houses of the sons of Finwe ruined and the remains of the houses scattered.....

At the end of the day, it was a Man who saved the Noldor : Earendil. Of course, the armies of the Valar extinguished Morgoth and Co but it was Earendil who showed regret and asked forgiveness in the name of the Noldor.


[Edited on 9/12/2003 by virumor]
I agree with everything you say, Virumor - but I suspect Feanor's 'reasons' for stealing the white ships were excuses made up after the event. They are pretty thin and preposterous, I do not think even Feanor would believe them, but he couldn't exactly say 'I'm sorry everyone, but I was rather upset and not thinking straight, so I killed a load of people', could he?

Thank you Isildur about the reminder of the strength of Feanor's spirit - with that burning inside you, are you ever going to take 'no' for an answer when you need something, even if you have to murder and steal to get it?

My Evil Laugh (TM) is not as good as Bugy's - how about NEEHEEHEEHAW?
Why exactly Feanor desired so the Silmarils? Were they just beautiful jewels, or did they have some hidden magic power?
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Why exactly Feanor desired so the Silmarils? Were they just beautiful jewels, or did they have some hidden magic power?
Because he created them, almost anyone who creates something has a love of that thing and does not wish it destroyed or stolen. I don't think they held any magic power, only an internal radiance of the light of the two trees which were no more.
Some answers for u, my friends!

Vir:
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(and so he thought the Noldor were better than the Teleri). This shows a bit of a fascistoid character Feanor has.


I remember Thingol having the same problem with the Dwarves and no one jumped in their defence (except Aule, of course!). Let's not be harsh in judging Feanor; he was a spirit of fire, after all!
As for the oath, once taken it could've not been broken; and they still thought they could defeat Morgoth!

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At the end of the day, it was a Man who saved the Noldor : Earendil. Of course, the armies of the Valar extinguished Morgoth and Co but it was Earendil who showed regret and asked forgiveness in the name of the Noldor.


Yes, but Earendil was half Noldor, let's not forget! He did it for his mother's people too!

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Thank you Isildur about the reminder of the strength of Feanor's spirit - with that burning inside you, are you ever going to take 'no' for an answer when you need something, even if you have to murder and steal to get it?


So true, I'm afraid ... Feanor's spirit will always be a mistery for me: so much power in one Elf!

Eryan:
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Why exactly Feanor desired so the Silmarils? Were they just beautiful jewels, or did they have some hidden magic power?


Though Grondy already answered these questions, I would like to add that, IMHO, their power was the Life&Light held in them. As for Feanor's burning desire, one who had created smth doesn't want to lose his creation, nor to see it destroyed! I truely believe Feanor would've died if the Silmarils were to be broken!

Namarie!
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I remember Thingol having the same problem with the Dwarves and no one jumped in their defence (except Aule, of course!). Let's not be harsh in judging Feanor; he was a spirit of fire, after all!
As for the oath, once taken it could've not been broken; and they still thought they could defeat Morgoth!

This topic isn't about Thingol but about the Noldor.

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Why exactly Feanor desired so the Silmarils? Were they just beautiful jewels, or did they have some hidden magic power?

It was Morgoth who desired the Silmarils. Feanor made them, they were his possession and creation, so it was normal he wanted to get them back once they were stolen. Less normal was the fact that he became totally obsessed with them - probably because they were his lifework.

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Yes, but Earendil was half Noldor, let's not forget! He did it for his mother's people too!

Not really half-Noldor, Idril Celebrindal was half-Noldor herself (her mother was a Vanya). But i get your point : he didn't do it for any race, he just wanted all the evil and harm done by Morgoth to end.
Sorry, Grondy, but I must disagree with you on the Silmarils. These are the greatest works of craft ever created in Arda, they capture the light of the trees and are hallowed by Varda, and they take in light from around them and return it 'in hues more marvellous than before'. The Valar are in awe of them and Mandos fortells (correctly) that the fate of the world is bound within them.
Feanor certainly used magic as well as craft to create them; the magic they posess may therefore be subtle (no shooting bolts of light) but they must hold magic power, perhaps even in their own way beyond that of the One ring.

Sorry also to Virumor but I think Bugy's comment about Thingol's attitude to Dwarves is relevent to this discussion - it shows Feanor was not the only character with racist tendancies.

'If you can't say anything positive, don't say anything', so I'll shut up now.
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'If you can't say anything positive, don't say anything', so I'll shut up now.

I disagree with this, JonnieA. Everyone should be allowed to give his or her opinion, whether it is positive or not and whether it is accepted by others or not.

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Sorry also to Virumor but I think Bugy's comment about Thingol's attitude to Dwarves is relevent to this discussion - it shows Feanor was not the only character with racist tendancies.

I can't see why it is so relevant. I agree that Thingol had racist tendencies too, but you can't say that it is allright for Feanor to have racist tendencies because others have racist tendencies too.




[Edited on 10/12/2003 by virumor]
When I said "I don't think they held any magic power", I only meant you couldn't do anything magic with them, like planting them and having a Giant Beanstalk grow overnight or to swallow one of them and change into a Dragon, or throw one and have it explode killing a hundred Orcs. However, I do agree that the light they contained and radiated was a wonder to behold.
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I can't see why it is so relevant. I agree that Thingol had racist tendencies too, but you can't say that it is allright for Feanor to have racist tendencies because others have racist tendencies too.


Nah, Vir, I don't think it's OK either, yet I was trying to explain how some Elves had an contemptuos attitude towards Dwarves and how Feanor was just one of them, not the only one!

And, yes: everyone's entitled to have an opinion, no matter how everyone else takes it! That's my opinion, at least! hehe

Namarie!
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throw one and have it explode killing a hundred Orcs

Indeed, if the Silmarils would be thrown into a horde of Orcs they would break and set free the light of the Two Trees - which would indeed kill all those Orcs, without exploding of course.

[Edited on 11/12/2003 by virumor]
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