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Thread: The House of Finwe: what's your opinion?

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The poison of Morgoth did reached Finrod despite all his virtues, making him leave Valinor and fall under the Doom of Mandos, but it is just that Finrod was not as enmeshed in the whole we-have-to-get-the-Silmarils-and-we'll-never-rest-until-they're-ours thing as many of the other Elves. He just seems less dark to us and we like him for that.

I don't think the poison of Morgoth ever reached Finrod. At least that's not the reason he left.

Finrod left Valinor only because the sons of Fingolfin left, and these were as close to him as brothers; not because he longed to rule over a scrap of land like his illustrious sister, or out of vengeance like Fingolfin & Co.

Let's just hope that his Vanyarin sweetheart he had left behind did not marry somebody else during his absence.
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I don't think the poison of Morgoth ever reached Finrod. At least that's not the reason he left.


Well, the poison didn't take root in him, but he was affected by it. By leaving Valinor he became subject to the Doom of Mandos and he did die indirectly because of another's greed for the SIlmarils.

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Let's just hope that his Vanyarin sweetheart he had left behind did not marry somebody else during his absence.


They were betrothed. I don't think she'd marry anyone else. But really, you never know. With Vanyar anything can happen.
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They were betrothed. I don't think she'd marry anyone else. But really, you never know. With Vanyar anything can happen.

Betrothals can be broken.

Edith Bratt had been betrothed to somebody else before she married JRRT; extrapolating from this fact, Lúthien had probably been betrothed to Daeron before she was stolen by a mortal; extrapolating from that, Arwen had probably been betrothed to Legolas before she was seduced by another mortal.

Considering that Finrod returning from the Halls of Mandos meant that he was reborn, could it be that he was nursed as a baby by his beloved Amarië herself? That's kind of a disturbing thought.
In the Grey Annals, concerning Inglor [Finrod] Felagund: 'But it is said that released soon from Mandos, he went to Valinor and there dwells with Amárie.' JRRT GA

The passage in the constructed Silmarillion was due to Christopher Tolkien rewriting a version of Quenta Silmarillion found back in HME V, which read: 'But Inglor walks with Finrod his father among his kinsfolk in the light of the Blessed Realm.'

According to Laws And Customs Of The Eldar an Eldarin betrothal could be revoked, but the right of revoking was seldom used, for the Eldar '... do not err lightly in such choice'

Also, Finrod would have been reincarnated in his former body (not as an Elf-baby).
This is the Silmarillion section of the forums, not HOME section. Hence one must concentrate what's mentioned in the Silmarillion only.

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Also, Finrod would have been reincarnated in his former body (not as an Elf-baby).

I highly doubt that. Who would make his broken body anew? Aulë? That just sounds wrong, considering that -together with Mandos distributing the soul to the body- would again be impersonating Ilúvatar like he did with the Dwarves. He would not allow this anymore, nor would Aulë feel the urge to do it anymore.
Finrod definately does not return as an elf-child:

"They buried the body of Felagund upon the hill-top of his own isle, and it was clean again; and the green grave of Finrod Finarfin's son, fairest of all the princes of the Elves, remained inviolate, until the land was changed and broken, and foundered under destroying seas. But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar." The Sil

Any of the Houseless who are granted the ability to re-take form would not re-start there lives from scratch. They have all the knowledge of the previous life. If you want to delve further into the workings of the re-born and about Houseless spirits I suggest Morgoth's Ring chapters 'OF DEATH AND THE SEVERANCE OF FEA AND HRONDO [> HROA].(23)' and 'OF RE-BIRTH AND OTHER DOOMS OF THOSE THAT GO TO MANDOS.(33)'.
Moderator Smilie Shouting is frowned upon; using bold italics to highlight your response might have been more socially acceptable than the use of all caps. Just a thought. Moderator Smilie
It was already all in capitals in the e-book which I copied and pasted it from. I just bolded it to stand out as it was a reference to something.
How can a newborn babe walk? Don't they just crawl? FOr me, that was what told me that Fonrid was reincarnated as an adult Elf.
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Virumor posted: I highly doubt that. Who would make his broken body anew? Aulë? That just sounds wrong, considering that -together with Mandos distributing the soul to the body- would again be impersonating Ilúvatar like he did with the Dwarves. He would not allow this anymore, nor would Aulë feel the urge to do it anymore.


Manwe and the Valar were given the authority to reincarnate the Elves. And Tolkien ultimately abandoned the idea of Elves being reborn as Elf-babies as a form of Elvish reincarnation (it proved too problematic).

'It was therefore the duty of the Valar, by command of the One, to restore them to incarnate life, if they desired it. But this 'restoration' could be delayed by Manwe, if...' JRRT Glorfindel

And note 17...

'My father here discussed again the idea that Elvish reincarnation might be achieved by 'rebirth' as a child, and rejected it as emphatically as he had done in the discussion called 'Reincarnation of Elves'. Christopher Tolkien, Last Writings
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How can a newborn babe walk? Don't they just crawl? FOr me, that was what told me that Fonrid was reincarnated as an adult Elf.

The quote does not mention when Finrod walked with his father in Valinor, does it? It might as well have been 10 years, 50 years of 500 years after his death. This, together with the fact that Elves grow up very quickly, does not rule anything out.

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And Tolkien ultimately abandoned the idea of Elves being reborn as Elf-babies as a form of Elvish reincarnation (it proved too problematic).

I do not see it as problematic at all.

Again : who created the bodieth of reincarnated Elves? It as a discomforting idea to me, all those reincarnated Elves lumbering around in Aulë's clockwork bodies.

Hold on, did they come back as Dwarves?! So that is why Gimli held Galadriel in so much reverence, and possessed such impressive oratory skills! Twas Fonrid! Elf Sticking Tounge Out Smilie
I recommend reading Galin's last post. Note his last quote.

Also my quote is also seamless. If Finrod came back as a baby then he would have had to be born again. This would mean Finarfin would most likely not be his father and this completely contradicts the quote.

So unless your suggesting Finrod has two different mothers and two different fathers I would discard the idear as Elves re-born back as children.
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I do not see it as problematic at all.


Well Tolkien did anyway, a most fatal objection being that: 'it contradicts the fundamental notion that fea and hroa were each fitted to the other: since hroar have a physical descent, the body of rebirth, having different parents, must be different', and this must be a condition of pain to the reborn fea.'

According to Christopher Tolkien, rebirth as the mode by which the Elves might return to incarnate life had come to seem to JRRT 'a serious flaw in the metaphysic of Elvish existence'
Elven reincarnation is a problem that Tolkien seemed to explore for a while, as though wishing to find a solution that worked, but he seemed to run into problems with each theory he tried. He did write in some detail about elven spirits being reincarnated into newborn babies, and the problems that created of two fea being present in one body, but it was an explaination that did seem to work well, and one that he seemed to have explored at length. In that passage, he did not rule out reincarnation back into the original body either, but mentioned that it was very rare, as the body needed to be undamaged for the fea to be able to return into it. There was also mention of the "homeless" spirits, but I believe they were mainly those elves in Middle Earth that had refused the call to the Halls of Mandos, and whose bodies had subsequently faded, leaving their fea homeless.

There are few instances of elven reincarnation being mentioned in the Silmarillion (Finrod and Glorfindel - although nothing is said to prove that there were not two Glorfindels), and I believe that was because the physics of the reincarnation had never been properly resolved. Whichever explaination is used, there seems to be contradictions in other texts to disprove one way or support another. With the exception of the few lines that did slip through, reincarnation has been very much played down in the Silmarillion. In fact, until I read HOME, I was of the opinion that Elves were not reincarnated in a physical form at all, but that the reincarnation was purely spiritual - hence Finrod's spirit walked with his father, just as a Maian spirit might do.

Having read HOME, I tend to support the reincarnation into new babies theory. Tolkien seems to have explored the idea to a greater length than other theories, before finally abandoning it.

And as for Finrod and Amarie - Why after spending so long in Middle Earth and the Halls of Mandos would he come out and walk with his father? I'm guessing she perhaps had a litter of her own by the time he got back :p
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Having read HOME, I tend to support the reincarnation into new babies theory. Tolkien seems to have explored the idea to a greater length than other theories, before finally abandoning it.


'Rebirth Reincarnation' was indeed a long held idea, so I think the problems must have been serious enough for the creator of the Elves to reject it. Christopher Tolkien didn't give the Reader all the actual Tolkien-written texts on this.

Tolkien appears to have rejected the notion twice: in The Peoples of Middle-Earth JRRT (we are told) again addressed the physical and psychological difficulties, but Christopher did not reproduce this essay (which existed in two versions, one a very rough draft) except for a concluding part which concerned the Dwarves' belief in the rebirth or reappearance of their fathers (notably Durin).

It appears that JRRT was possibly willing to have the Elvish 'rebirth idea' appear somewhere, if noted as a false notion, probably of Mannish origin.
Val wrote:

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(Finrod and Glorfindel - although nothing is said to prove that there were not two Glorfindels)


I beg to differ:

"Also very notable is 'Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin.' Years later, long after the publication of The Lord of the Rings, my father gave a great deal of thought to the matter of Glorfindel, and at that time he wrote: '[The use of Glorfindel] in The Lord of the Rings is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends, now referred to as The Silmarillion, which escaped reconsideration in the final published form of The Lord of the Rings.' He came to the conclusion that Glorfindel of Gondolin, who fell to his death in combat with a Balrog after the sack of the city (II.192 - 4, IV.145), and Glorfindel of Rivendell were one and the same: he was released from Mandos and returned to Middle-earth in the Second Age." - HOME - The Return of the Shadow

It is apparent that Tolkien had troubles enough in concluding the reincarnation of Elves and although it seems he considered the idear of Baby-elf reincarnation he later abandoned it. Whether the Fea returned to its old body which may have been repaired, or perhaps a new body was made like to the old it is clear they reincarnated into adult stature.
I think Valedhelgwath maybe meant 'nothing is said' in the '77 Silmarillion (concerning Glorfindel).
I am not so sure. 'nothing is said' seems to me to mean 'Nothing at all is said - no exceptions'. Anyway perhaps Val can clarify when she posts next (I assume she is a she)...

Besides going back to a point made earlier by Vir I do believe this forum is for matters included in the Silmarillion but not confined only to quotes in the Sil isn't it?
I think the general idea (Morgoth's Ring) is that the fea 'retains a memory, an imprint, of its hroa, its 'former house', so powerful and precise that the reconstruction of an identical body can proceed from it.'

Thus the Elvish fea will be in accord with its former hroa.

As for the forum, I don't know, I just thought the statement in the post itself meant, or at least might have meant, the '77 Silmarillion.
I simply cannot fathom where the new bodies of those reincarnated Elves come from - I cannot believe Aulë would dare to try to create these bodies, like he did with the Dwarves - Ilúvatar himself would have to do it, implying direct interference and I don't consider those events to be important enough for that.

From Beren & Lúthien we know that their souls returned to the original body; we know from Míriel that her body was tended to in the Gardens of Lórien til she came back; extrapolating from this I gather the Valar did not have the ability, nor the wish, nor the permission to create bodieth for the Children of Ilúvatar. Indeed, twould be a complete contempt to the One.

Hence Ilúvatar Himself would have to provide them bodieth, throwing them down like manna from Heaven, as it were, which I highly doubt.

Obviously there's problems with the 'rebirth' theory too, since it would imply the original mothers to becoming magically (immaculately?) pregnant again. The One would have this power, though, so this does not seem *so* problematic to me.

Indeed, I can imagine a toddler Fonrid, child in physique but with the full knowledge and wisdom of his former adult self --- a striking parallel with St Alia of the Knife from the Dune universe.
There's no problem, God commanded it should be so, and it's achieved by the Valar. As said 'It was therefore the duty of the Valar, by command of the One, to restore them to incarnate life, if they desired it. But this 'restoration' could be delayed by Manwe, if...' JRRT Glorfindel

It's not the same thing as Aule trying to create the Dwarves.
Remember however that the Hroar is made from the substance of Arda. Thus is why it is said that the Children of Iluvatar are exclusively made within the Circles of the World and originate therin. Whereas the Ainur originate from Without and as such are not bound to there phisical body limitations.

I agree that it would probably be Eru creating the new bodies. However I think you are overthinking the situation. I doubt Iluvatar would trot down into the Little Kingdom with Hammer and tongs in hand ready to get carving. It could be that in some empty house, or garden of Lorien, Finrod simply awakes again with a new body and takes up his old life once more.

Remember Eru is not set to phisiscal boundries. If he wants a new body for someone it would proabably just happen. The body of Finrod would just 'appear' one day. No explanation as to how it could be created.
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There's no problem, God commanded it should be so, and it's achieved by the Valar. As said 'It was therefore the duty of the Valar, by command of the One, to restore them to incarnate life, if they desired it. But this 'restoration' could be delayed by Manwe, if...' JRRT Glorfindel

From what I've gathered from what Valedhelgwath posted, the above apparently was one of JRRT's ideas. Which one, though, came first, and was regarded by the Professor as final, I dare not venture to say. Nor do I feel the need to.
And what I meant by 'no problem' is: no problem between the Powers and God; that is, the Valar under command of God restore the Elvish hroar; they restore 'what was'.

This indeed appears in very late texts, and is in accord with Tolkien's (second) rejection of the 'rebirth' notion.
Well there is one easy way past the problem of rebirth from their original mothers. Rather than obtaining newborns the normal way: finding them in suitcases; these reborns were actually brought by the stork. Elf With a Big Grin Smilie

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I am not so sure. 'nothing is said' seems to me to mean 'Nothing at all is said - no exceptions'. Anyway perhaps Val can clarify when she posts next (I assume she is a she)...


To answer the latter question first, because I'm pretty sure I know the answer to that one... Is she a She? or for further evidence.... Val

Regards the first question, I was not referring to the Silmarillion specifically, but to anything that actually PROVED Glofindel was one and the same. My actual quote was ...

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although nothing is said to prove that there were not two Glorfindels


... while you have quoted me as saying, "nothing is said". I admit there is subject matter concerning Glorfindel's reincarnation, in fact a lot of it, but to me none of it is really conclusive. If the Third Age Glorfindel was to be accused of the murder of a balrog back in the First Age, and the prosecution used as their evidence what is written about his reincarnation in HOME, in a British court he would be aquitted. There is insufficient evidence to PROVE the case.

Don't get me wrong... I myself believe the two Glorfindel's are one and the same. You don't need to convince me of that, but the evidence is inconclusive. That is one of the problems with HOME. Much of what is published in HOME are Tolkien's early drafts and notes, and reading through them, you can see Tolkien frequently changes his ideas and story lines. The question is, what do we believe to be the truth?

Some people quote sections from the Lost Tales, and insist on using the names from those books. These are Tolkien's earliest drafts, however, and much adapted over time. Tolkien clearly did not intend what he wrote in those early texts to take prescedence over his later writings. So, in that case does his latest writing take prescedence over everything else? You would think so, but if that is the case, some of the last writing Tolkien did was to rethink his whole Creation story of the Sun and Moon being born from the fruits of the Two Trees. In his last pieces of work, Tolkien was creating a universe more akin to our own. So do we tear up the chapters in the Silmarillion about the creation of the Sun and Moon? I hope not, because they are beautiful concepts - far better than what he was rewriting them as.

What a lot of people do is use the Silmarillion as a benchmark. It has its errors, and is probably different to how JRR had actually intended it, but it is the main published account. I personally use the Silmarillion as the truth - barring a few of the more notable mistakes - and use HOME to suppliment what is in the Silmarillion. There is a lot of HOME that is totally omitted from the Silmarillion, and that is great for additional richness. Provided it does not conflict with the Silmarillion, I accept this added information. A lot of HOME does conflict with the Silmarillion, however, because huge amounts of HOME are early drafts that Tolkien himself rejected.

Now back to Glorfindel... In The Peoples of Middle-earth (The History of Middle-earth Vol. 12): XIII Last Writings, Glorfindel, Christopher Tolkien refers to notes made by his father a year before his death. The gist of these notes makes it clear that at the time of writing Lord of the Rings, Glorfindel of Rivendell was not conceived as the same character as Glorfindel of Gondolin. Tolkien says, 'Its use [i.e. the name 'Glorfindel'] in The Lord of the Rings is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends ... which escaped reconsideration in the final published form...'.

JRR was unhappy with this, however, and it seems that he intended to reconcile the problem by uniting the two strands of the story. In summary, the notes tell us that Glorfindel's spirit returned to the Halls of Waiting, but was after a time re-embodied by the Valar. He then returned to Middle-earth (either in the mid-Second Age, or as a companion of the Istari in the Third).

For me, that is enough for me to believe that Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell are one and the same, and therefore, that Elven reincarnation does exist. Others, however could cite conflicting passages from HOME that countered this argument. Everyone will believe what they wish to believe themselves, but the fact is, it is not "PROVED".

Hopefully, that is adequate explaination for what I meant in my earlier passage... And, yes, I'm a bloke.
Indeed what you say about the HOME series is true. The earlier texts in them should be used as evidence only if nothing is contradicted in more relaible sources.

However I did not quote an early draft of Tolkien. I quote what Christopher Tolkien had to say on the subject. Throughout the HOME series Chris gives us a commentry and tells us what were the final thoughts on the matter were in Tolkien mind and he concludes:

"He came to the conclusion that Glorfindel of Gondolin, who fell to his death in combat with a Balrog after the sack of the city (II.192 - 4, IV.145), and Glorfindel of Rivendell were one and the same: he was released from Mandos and returned to Middle-earth in the Second Age."

Christopher is saying that Tolkien's CONCLUSION was that the two were one of the same. Of course this is really a matter for another thread but to me that seems conclusive. However perhaps to others who interpret it differently somehow it may seem to suggest otherwise.
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There is a lot of HOME that is totally omitted from the Silmarillion, and that is great for additional richness. Provided it does not conflict with the Silmarillion, I accept this added information. A lot of HOME does conflict with the Silmarillion, however, because huge amounts of HOME are early drafts that Tolkien himself rejected.

Linking HOME to the Silmarillion is often problematic - in case of Elven rebirth there are two possibilities mentioned in HOME which are applicable on the Silmarillion, and who's to say what's definite? It's a matter of taste what to believe and what not.

That's why I like to keep the Silmarillion and HOME separate as much as possible. I believe the Silmarillion should only be linked with Unfinished Tales, since after all the Silmarillion was borne from the plethora of tales and ideas that eventually became HOME, by careful investigation and selection by Christopher Tolkien and his co-worker, Guy Gavriel Kay.

All of HOME is interesting, but due to its ambiguity I consider it as separate from LOTR, the Silmarillion and UT.
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Valedhelgwath posted I admit there is subject matter concerning Glorfindel's reincarnation, in fact a lot of it, but to me none of it is really conclusive. If the Third Age Glorfindel was to be accused of the murder of a balrog back in the First Age, and the prosecution used as their evidence what is written about his reincarnation in HOME, in a British court he would be aquitted. There is insufficient evidence to PROVE the case.


What you appear to mean by 'prove' and what Virumor probably similarly means by 'definite' is really about what Readers accept as a given however: that unpublished texts (not published by the author) are indeed unpublished, and thus are not 'final' in this sense. If not, what else do you mean? But this basic stamp is not the only consideration of course, as once competing unpublished texts go up on a scale there are possibly other factors to tip those scales, other considerations that show equally 'not final' texts (in the sense I think you mean), are yet not equal, or not of equal weight, in other ways. And here, there are other factors.

To say it another way: one can 'prove' both issues here about as much as is possible within the limits of the situation, and beyond that one is swimming in general waters. What Tolkien would have decided about the matter in this 'final' sense cannot be known, but that doesn't change what we do know; that doesn't change what he did at least put to paper.

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Much of what is published in HOME are Tolkien's early drafts and notes, and reading through them, you can see Tolkien frequently changes his ideas and story lines. The question is, what do we believe to be the truth?


But there's a lot of material that is not early as well, and Tolkien still made changes in post-Lord of the Rings traditions of course.

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Some people quote sections from the Lost Tales, and insist on using the names from those books. These are Tolkien's earliest drafts, however, and much adapted over time. Tolkien clearly did not intend what he wrote in those early texts to take prescedence over his later writings. So, in that case does his latest writing take prescedence over everything else? You would think so, but if that is the case, some of the last writing Tolkien did was to rethink his whole Creation story of the Sun and Moon being born from the fruits of the Two Trees. In his last pieces of work, Tolkien was creating a universe more akin to our own. So do we tear up the chapters in the Silmarillion about the creation of the Sun and Moon? I hope not, because they are beautiful concepts - far better than what he was rewriting them as.


This could be an interesting thread, but just briefly here, no I don't believe one need tear up those chapters.

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Now back to Glorfindel... In The Peoples of Middle-earth (...) The gist of these notes makes it clear that at the time of writing Lord of the Rings, Glorfindel of Rivendell was not conceived as the same character as Glorfindel of Gondolin. Tolkien says, 'Its use [i.e. the name 'Glorfindel'] in The Lord of the Rings is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends ... which escaped reconsideration in the final published form...'.


As the Encyclopedia of Arda would suggest too Happy Elf Smilie

However they fail to mention Tolkien's interesting 'Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin' noted by the author at the time The Lord of the Rings was being written. That might be only suggestive but there is something about this I find quite likely: that is, after 'somewhat randomly' choosing this name (even if this suggestive note did not exist), it's very likely that at some point in the years it took to finish the book, JRRT was going to connect the name with the already existing character, even if briefly in his imagination.

What he did not do at the time (it appears), was sit down and consider the matter in detail and on paper, as he would do much later, and ultimately find out the 'truth'.

On The History of Middle-Earth in general, the '77 Silmarillion was constructed out of what is found in the twelve volume presentation. To phrase if differently, HME isn't 'added' stuff, it's all the stuff, or nearly so. Very generally speaking the legendarium is a collection of unfinished, disparate texts and traditions written at different times -- ranging from a hard to read (or brief) marginal note, to the only complete and 'finished' version of the Silmarillion tradition that ever existed (the Qenta Noldorinwa).

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'The Silmarillion', again in the widest sense, is very evidently a literary entity of a singular nature. I would say that it can only be defined in terms of its history; and that history is with this book [HME XI] largely completed (...). It is indeed the only 'completion' possible because it was always 'in progress', the published work is not in any way a completion, but a construction devised out of the existing materials. Those materials are now made available, save only in a few details and in the matter of Túrin...' Christopher Tolkien, Foreword, War of the Jewels


HME contains the Silmarillion tradition, or 'Silmarillion proper', itself a part of an imagined larger collection. The nature of the HME style of presentation allows for a much truer picture to be drawn, giving the texts as Tolkien actually wrote them and left them at his passing, or maybe Christopher Tolkien might attempt to describe an extant text rather than reproduce it.

By its nature a one-volume presentation which attempted a measure of consistency, like the '77 constructed Silmarillion, will naturally exclude competing materials that might be considered to destroy too much in the way of believability. Not all competing details need be excised however. Tolkien was concerned with consistency and a certain measure of 'intentional inconsistency' (or seemingly conflicting details). Some differences would be expected due to the circumstances; in short 'too consistent' is not desired, and too much inconsistency would begin to break down the desired effect.

Importantly, Tolkien was a world class niggler: sometimes it seems as if he could not sit down on a given day without revising something, or without a new idea popping up and spreading like fast growing vines. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion, and while this may seem to help the 'not final' argument, again, we cannot know what we cannot know.

I have no problem with someone who posts 'I prefer this idea or that', I have my preferences too, but there are factors too notable for me to ignore with respect to some issues. One can 'believe' what one likes of course, but I think most people are already heeding something that's only natural when dealing with the work of an artist (who worked on something for much of his life) with a penchant for revision: that some things, although written, or 'once written', were really never meant to be seen by Readers as far as the author was concerned -- they were to him 'old' ideas not really true anymore. And we only became aware of them because someone else made them public. Some issues might indeed be cloudy...

... but in my opinion these two conclusions (now under discussion) are about as clear as a Tolkien Reader can find.
With regard to the nature I treat HOME sources I generally consider them accurate if nothing is contradicted in later texts but thats only a general rule. I use logic in the matter to. For instance I very much doubt the Numenoreans had flying ships regardless of whether its rebuted later or not. It says a number of times in the Downfall of Numenor that the ships lay anchored in the havens on the sea, and that if you were to stand on a tall mast of one you may be able to see a vison of Elvenhome. If the ships were able to fly then you could probabaly see alot more than a mere vision of Eressea's towers. Even though this was a pretty feeble example there is simply too much in the Silmarillion that suggests (not contradicts) that the ships sailed on the sea, rather than the air.
Clearly the Noldor are the favorite Elf creations of Tolkien as well, for they make up the lineage of Elrond and the Elros. The love of them is found in their humanity. The beauty of rebellion and redemption is found all throughout the telling of the tale of the Noldor. The entire Silmarilion was not written to make us despise the Noldor, but to see ourselves in them.
Very true. The closest things we have for 'mortal-like Elves'. However that link deminishes during later ages when the Noldor become the 'High' Elves, most noble and wise and seem to take the place in middle-earth that the Vanyar filled in The Silmarillion. Indeed the Elves of Mirkwood seem the most down to earth in later ages.
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what is the house of Finwë but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among their dogs?

That sounds like a variation of what Saruman had said on Orthanc to Theoden Horsemaster. So it's what Saruman said on Orthanc except that you changed the House of Rohan to Finwe. And about Glorfindel, I think it wasa pity that they cut him out of the movie don't you? Wink Smilie

Also,the closest things that we got to elves today are people dresssing up like elves. I wsh that they were rel eves in some remote country, somewhere in the world.Wiggle Smilie
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I wish that they were rel eves in some remote country, somewhere in the world. Wiggle Smilie

Whose to say there isn't a remnant hiding inside an extinct volcano somewhere in the Andes or in SE Asia. There are still some places that haven't been fully explored; especially as you'd have to find the secret entrance and pass safely through each the seven guarded gateways.
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Whose to say there isn't a remnant hiding inside an extinct volcano somewhere

That would be TOO much like the Bahro creatures from Myst "URU". Wink Smilie
In Morgoth's Ring Tolkien notes certain Elves who might be called the Lingerers: Elves who had faded in the body (an elven fea consuming its hroa) but whose beautiful forms could still be revealed to Men's minds, if desired. And there are also the Elves called the Houseless: those who had no hroar and whose spirits refused Mandos (though these could be perilous!).

There were arguably some Lingerers East of the Sea in Ćlfwine's time, which is not that long ago really, especially to an Elf.

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'... on the other, the Lingerers, whose bodily forms may no longer be seen by us mortals, or seen only dimly and fitfully (... ) indeed they do not seek converse with Men at all, save maybe rarely, either for the doing of some good, or because they perceive in a Man's spirit some love of things ancient and fair. Then they may reveal to him their forms (through his mind working outwardly, maybe), and he will behold them in their beauty.' Morgoth's Ring
Yay! Elves live in the world likes spirits, if they don't go to Mandos, so they can still be elves everywhere, that are invisible.Big Smile Smilie But I want to see elves that hadn't faded away. I think that they could be some last refuges of the Elves in the Himalayas, Andes, Rockies and the Alps if anywhere, or maybe in New Zealand's mountains (Peter Jackson could of hired them). Or maybe they could be in unexplored tracts of th Amazon,, in hiding, fearing that men may drive them from their homes.
The Elves that refused the summons of Mandos are not something to rave about. They usually could not refuse the summons of Morgoth and become under his dominion.

"The fea is single, and in the last impregnable. It cannot be brought to Mandos. It is summoned; and the summons proceeds from just authority, and is imperative; yet it may be refused. Among those who refused the summons (or rather invitation) of the Valar to Aman in the first years of the Elves, refusal of the summons to Mandos and the Halls of Waiting is, the Eldar say, frequent. It was less frequent, however, in ancient days, while Morgoth was in Arda, or his servant Sauron after him; for then the fea unbodied would flee in terror of the Shadow to any refuge - unless it were already committed to the Darkness and passed then into its dominion. In like manner even of the Eldar some who had become corrupted refused the summons, and then had little power to resist the counter-summons of Morgoth."
Hey LOA, which volume of HOME is that in? Is that also Morgoth's Ring? If so, then I GOTTA start reading that one soon (it just arrived in the mail on Saturday) -- it seems to cover a lot of good subjects that aren't really addressed anywhere else.
Yes, Morgoth's Ring is a great book and it gives you a bit more of an understanding of elvesCool Elf Smilie. I bought it in April this year and turned out to be a good buy. I think there is two companies that publish these books, Harper Collins and Houghton Mifflin. I personally like Harper Collins more than Houghton Mifflin because the books are usually better quality but they are some exceptions.Big Smile Smilie

Namarie!
Yeah these are the Harper Collins 2002 edition ("The Complete History of Middle Earth", the whole thing is compressed into three VERY large volumes). Looks gorgeous! And it certainly won't fall apart on the first or second reading like some of the stupid Del Rey paperbacks did. My LOTR "Millennium Edition" is Houghton Mifflin, and those are really nice too.
Quote:
In like manner even of the Eldar some who had become corrupted refused the summons, and then had little power to resist the counter-summons of Morgoth."


So basically, the Elves who didn't go to Mandos went over to the Dark Side? Well, I suppose there are always a few that still wander about aimlessly, a few that are corrupted but can still resist Morgoth's counter-summons, though I don't see any point in their existence, if they just float about in the land of in-betweens.

It's an interesting fact to know.I wonder what happens after Morgoth was put into the Void? Did all fea go to Mandos then? Or was there still some other dark force that could lure them into darkness?
Morgoth was put into the Void of Ea, not the Void itself (hough there is some debate about this).
All the Ainur were bound to Ea so long as it should last. Thus is why Morgoth was able to still have a small amount of will to guide his servants. If he was in the true Void I doubt he would have.
Sauron learnt much of the art of phantoms and wraiths after Morgoth so its possible even some Elves went to him after refusing the summons.
I have always thought that Morgoth was shut into the true Void itself, and the evil that still remained after him was a result of his spreading the seeds of darkness in the First Age. I mean, just because Morgoth was physically shut into the Void by the Valar doesn't mean that the evil thoughts and intentions festering in the hearts of men, Elves, and Dwarves and even Ainu would necessarily die. If they were already corrupted, then they can't just miraculously wipe everything evil from their memories, now can they?

And besides, what is the difference between the true Void and the Void of Ea?
I That evil is called 'Morgoth's Ring' I believe. Unlike Sauron, who put his evil into a ring, Morgoth put his evil into Arda.

I doubt that Morgoth could summon spirits. I can't believe that Morgoth ever could "drown out" the call from Valinor.

I had a glance into my copy of HOME: Morgoth's Ring, where it says that:

"Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all 'matter' was likely to have a 'Melkor ingredient', and those who had bodies, nourished by the hroa of Arda, has as it were a tendency, small or great, towards Melkor: they were none of them free of him in their incarnate form, and their bodies had an effect upon their spirits."

It seems odd that he suddenly could 'take' faded, body-less spirits, unless they were already corrupted.
Talk about Morgoth in a House of Finwë thread makes baby Fëanor cry.

Please take this to a More gothic thread.
True, I wouldn't want Feanor to be mad at me. Would make the family dinners so unpleasant.
And he, a spoilt sun of Finwe would probably banish you out of Valinor with his army of skanks.
Why was he spoiled, anyway? The brat practically killed his mother in the womb, by sucking her dry of all her lifeforce.

If I were Finwë, I'd lock that monster up in the basement and never let him out again.
Same with me. Actually, I'll put him in Azkhaban ( wizard prison with Dementors that suck out the happiness out of you and occasionally, suck out your soul. ) And I'm Glad that Fëanor died, aren't you?
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