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Thread: Eru's thoughts (Ainur)

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He made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made...... for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Iluvatar from which he came...

(Chapter 1 of the Silmarillion)


Melkor was formed from the thoughts of Eru by the thoughts of Eru. Was the possibility of his evil already in Eru's thoughts? Was Melkor a 'wild-card'? Was he deliberate? What was Eru's reason for allowing it?
Deep subject...Very deep... Needs time to completely discuss and unfortuantely i don't have that time now... All i can say for now is that noone, even Eru itself , is not pure good. Think about Yin-Yang. (I'll come back to this thread)
The Ainur came from Erus thoughts, but they came alive and got thoughts and ideas of their own. They were not a part of him anymore, they where given a free will and Melkor chose to turn away from Eru, the others chose to stay. Eru is not evil, but his "offspring" can choose to be. That is what I think anyway. Wink Smilie

Melkor had a "brother" didn't he? They came from the same thought or part of Eru?
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All i can say for now is that noone, even Eru itself , is not pure good. Think about Yin-Yang. (I'll come back to this thread)


Why can't Eru be pure good? Why must there be evil? Not sure I know enough about Yin-Yang apart from it being the balance of the universe or something. Hurry up and come back.

I see what Amarie is saying but I still don't understand why, if Eru's thoughts were pure and good and that's were the Ainur came from, Melkor alone developed a very evil streak?

And surely, Eru knows everything until the end of time itself........ or does he? Was the creation of Arda an experiment?
My opinion is that Eru knew what he was doing, and deliberately created Melkor.

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'And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'
-The Silmarillion

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'And thou, Melko, shalt see that no theme may be played that has not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempts this shall but aid me in devising things yet more wonderful, which he himself has not imagined. Through Melko have terror as fire, and sorrow like dark waters, wrath like thunder, and evil as far from my light as the uttermost depths of the dark places come into the design. In the confusion of sound were made pain and cruelty, devouring flame and cold without mercy, and death without hope. Yet he shall see that in the end this redounds only to the glory of the world, and this world shall be called of all the deeds of Ilķvatar the mightiest and most lovely.'
-The Lost Road, similar passage


I think the idea is that through evil, good/beauty becomes more magnificent and more appreciated.
I agree with Arco. Good is that much more "good" when evil has tainted certain parts of it. Also, others may have had rebellious streaks (Aule[?] when he created dwarves) but only Melkor saw his through to such completion. My thoughts anyway. Big Smile Smilie
I fully believe that Eru was totally good, and he made his Children have a choice, not just be robots, but he knew that Morgoth would turn evil.
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And surely, Eru knows everything until the end of time itself........ or does he? Was the creation of Arda an experiment?

IMHO ;
I'm against the idea that Eru was pure. How could Melkor in his evil form possibly be given life by Eru if it was pure? I think Eru contained evil as much as goodness. Manwe was the reflection of goodness and Melkor was his dark side.

Vee, I think the creation of Arda was an experiment. This may sound stupid to most of you, but i also think Eru was a sadistic creature. No, seriously, what kind of creature could possibly create a new world, unleash the terror of its own creation (Melkor), create lower beings (Elves,men etc.) let Melkor corrupt them and then watch them fight? Not a "pure and good God" for sure.
[Philosophy]
Without evil there can be no good.
if there is only good the universe becomes unbalanced.
[/philosophy]
they say power corrupts, and Melkor was the most powerful of all the valar which is most likely the case here.
If they were all good then the elves would never have travelled to the Undying lands and the Numenorians wouldn't have got their island (they got it for good deeds in war) and there would be nothing exciting in LOTR or any related books so we wouldn't be here discussing it.
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they say power corrupts, and Melkor was the most powerful of all the valar which is most likely the case here.

Manwe and Melkor were equal in power, if Melkor was corrupted by his power, the same should have happened to Manwe as well. What do you think kept Manwe from corruption?
Eru is pure. He gave his creations free will because he wanted them live and flourish, to love and experience things, not to be mindless puppets like AulŽs dwarves was. There is no free will without choices.

The ainurs choises were to follow Eru or not to follow Eru, which is shown in the singing of the first song, the ainur can add their own notes (thoughts) to the song (the creation of earth), but Melkor starts to sing his own song.

Eru can't stop him because he has given him a free will, and that can't be taken back. Then Eru changes the pattern of the song, Melkor fights it with his, but he can't win. Erus final note pattern absorbs the stongest and "worst" parts of Melkors song and makes it beautiful. No matter what evil (though Melkor wasn't pure evil yet, just starting to be) would come, it would become part of Erus plan.*Ama notices Vilyons post and gets an ide* This is where Eru creates the balance between good and evil.

Ardas path is now set, some of the places it will go is already decided, how to get there is unsertain. All depends on what choises are made. Arda is an experiment, it is a travel towards the perfect, towards the Second Song (paradise), which is pure and flawless.
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He gave his creations free will because he wanted them live and flourish, to love and experience things, not to be mindless puppets like AulŽs dwarves was. There is no free will without choices.

The ainurs choises were to follow Eru or not to follow Eru, which is shown in the singing of the first song, the ainur can add their own notes (thoughts) to the song (the creation of earth), but Melkor starts to sing his own song.

Eru can't stop him because he has given him a free will, and that can't be taken back. Then Eru changes the pattern of the song, Melkor fights it with his, but he can't win. Erus final note pattern absorbs the stongest and "worst" parts of Melkors song and makes it beautiful
. .


If Eru wanted his creations to have free will, why did he tried to stop Melkor? What Melkor did was maybe evil, but he did it with his "free will" given to him by Eru. Why would Eru give him a free will and then try to stop what he was trying to do?
Because Melkor is destroying Erus plan and Melkor doesn't understand what he is doing. If Eru had an evil side he would/could have destroyed Molkor for oposing him. When the ainur is shown what the song has created, Melkor feels ashamed of what he has done. Eru tries by changing the song the first time to gently show Melkor the way to go.
I dont think that philosophy was JRR's forte, and in the Silmarillion the notion of Free Will versus Determism is handled rather clumsily... He can't help himself, it's obvious to most folk that Tolkien was influenced by the rather conservative ideas on Determinism that were prevalent at the time and these notions were undoubtedly reinforced by the the nightmrish experiences he endured during the Great War (WWI).

To use an example where this feature of his writing is illustrated. Sauron after the War of Wrath, acknowledges his part in the affair and is at first, sincere in his desire to atone, but due to his being in Middle Earth for so long, his paranoia, and fear of severe punishment being meted out by his Maiar peers and Valar superiors, hubris (pride) propels him in one singular motion toward the path of evil. The devil lies in the detail, but with Tolkien the reasons are flimsy, Sauron's ultimate decision to direct his will toward evil is given scant explanation in my opinion - and i believe it required more, as it is the seminal moment in Middle Earth's history. I think he did not want to dwell too much on this point, and preferred that it was taken as a given that exposure to Melkor's Evil would impart similar traits upon his greatest servant.

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If Eru wanted his creations to have free will, why did he tried to stop Melkor? What Melkor did was maybe evil, but he did it with his "free will" given to him by Eru. Why would Eru give him a free will and then try to stop what he was trying to do

The good of the many outweigh the good of the one. If the one uses the gift of free will to bring harm or discord to the many then he must be stopped or chaos will occur.
I donīt know what the heck you guys are talking about....Melkor isnīt evil...he is just lonely...the Valar froze him out and of course he wants vengeance....Heīs as kind and innocent as a puppy underneath his hard and dark face......Heīs been bullied always by people like ManwŽ.....that sanctumonius *******.......They bullied him because he couldnīt sing.....Even his father Eru did this.....bah.....I stand on Melkorīs side Wink Smilie
Hahahaha...
*Note: This post is not to be taken seriously*
*takes Aule's comments very very seriously & commits seppaku* Ach!
Exploding Head Smilie

Has anyone thought to conjecture as to what the sources of Tolkien's creation myth are? I mean do folk think that its of Judea-Christian origin, or some chimera of the Norse Saga, or older still, has a Sumerian/Babylonian (Gilgamesh & Enkidu) ring to it... Or even that Tolkien developed it in isolation and without reference to any mundane earth-bound cultures?

I'd be interested to hear someone elses view on this...
Hmmm... Good quesrtion. I think that they were thoughts like images of Iluvatar, not how that they act. Maybe Eru gave the Ainur their own free will but encouraged them to do good
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Because Melkor is destroying Erus plan and Melkor doesn't understand what he is doing. If Eru had an evil side he would/could have destroyed Molkor for oposing him. When the ainur is shown what the song has created, Melkor feels ashamed of what he has done. Eru tries by changing the song the first time to gently show Melkor the way to go


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The good of the many outweigh the good of the one. If the one uses the gift of free will to bring harm or discord to the many then he must be stopped or chaos will occur


Since Eru knows the future, why would he create Melkor knowing what he'd do? He knows Melkor will not behave after being warned too, so why bother? There is evil in Eru. If not , i'd call him an idiot for creating Melkor, knowing he'd be evil and destroy the rest of Ainur's works.
The earth and the future was created during the first song. The ainur got to add their own thoughts/notes to the song. Eru didn't know what they would add, and couldn't know if one would try to destroy things. Of course there was a chance someone would, but it might as well have been AulŽ or Varda.

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Maybe Eru gave the Ainur their own free will but encouraged them to do good

I think so.
I think that Eru knew what Melkor would do when he created him. Melkor was a catalyst for a lot of huge events. Maybe Eru knew this, knew what the outcome would be and thought it was worth it. I look at Eru as being omniscient, he sees the bigger picture and the suffering that Melkor caused in the 'short term' was justified by what would happen as a result in Eru's overall creation.
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he sees the bigger picture and the suffering that Melkor caused in the 'short term' was justified by what would happen as a result in Eru's overall creation.
This is what I think Eru is taking care of when he makes the third and last note-pattern, the one which includes the worst parts of Melkors song and makes it beautiful.

I still think that Eru didn't know what Melkor would do, but knew it MIGHT happen. We all know Eru can't be fooled, he does indeed see the big picture. He also sees the frame, the back of the picture and the wall it hangs on. Wink Smilie
From The Ainulindale - The Silmarillion

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And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: "Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of thy clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest."

Then Ulom answered: "Truely, Water is become now fairer than my heart imagined, neither had my secret thought conceived the snowflake, nor in all my music was contained the falling of the rain....."


Left alone the Valar would have created the perfect world but it would have lacked that beautiful ruggedness that gives it its character. Melkor was different to the other Valar in that his power lay in several realms. He seemed to have a little bit of everyone elses skills. He was also master of cold and fire. By attempting to destroy bits of Ea, he was actually making it even more beautiful by creating diversity. I think this is the thought Eru had when he conceived Melkor. Unfortunately, this desire to be different caused Melkor to want to alter the Children too, and to eventually become a Lord of them. His own nature eventually sent him down the evil path he eventually trod because he had the desire to create life. I'm not sure how far down that path Eru expected Melkor to go, but I suspect he knew it would happen, just as he knew he could eventually set things to right before they got totally out of hand.

Sometimes rather than wondering why Eru created Melkor, I look at the situation from another perspective. Many ancient religions have nature gods/deities etc. These gods were created by men to explain the forces of nature. Maybe Tolkien was doing the same. He has Valar for the Wind, the Sea, the Mountains and Forests etc. He also needs Valar to explain the destructive forces of nature; the earthquakes, volcanoes, and seering heat that creates deserts, etc. Some of his Valar rather than being concerned with nature are avatars of emotion; joy, dance, grief, dreams etc. Hate and jealousy are also very powerful emotions. He needed a Valar to portray those too. In this way, by becoming Lord of destuctive forces of nature and negative emotions, Melkor came into being. In this scenario Tolkien does not try to explain Eru's reasoning for creating evil any more than other religions attempt to justify the creation of their own evil gods. Maybe Tolkien was deliberately vague because he did not have a reason why Eru would have created him.

Of course, unlike Eru, Tolkien had a very real need to create Melkor. The books would have been pretty pointless without him.
Touching on the free will thing I have just seen this on another newsgroup..

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There's a passage also in letter #153 (1954): " To conclude: having mentioned Free Will, I might say that in my myth I have used 'subcreation' in a special way [...] to make visible and physical the effects of Sin or misused Free Will by men. Free Will is derivative, and is only operative within provided circumstances; but in order that it may exist, it is necessary that the Author should guarantee it, whatever betides: sc. when it is 'against His Will', as we say, [...] So in this myth, it is 'feigned' [...] that He gave special 'sub-creative' powers to certain of His highest created beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation. Of course within limits, and of course subject to certain commands or prohibitions. But if they 'fell', as the Diabolus Morgoth did, nd started making things 'for himself, to be their Lord', these would then 'be', even if Morgoth broke the supreme ban against making other 'rational' creatures like Elves or Men. They would at least 'be' real physical realities in the physical world, however evil they might prove, even 'mocking' the Children of God. They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.)"


From The Letters of JRR Tolkien I believe. Any thoughts?
Hi there, I just have been redirected from the Death of the Witch-King thread... Wow this is a great topic. Thanks Amarie!

My 2 eurocents on what has been discussed so far (I will try to make it not such a long post):

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Rednell wrote:
The good of the many outweigh the good of the one. If the one uses the gift of free will to bring harm or discord to the many then he must be stopped or chaos will occur.


But eum. Why on earth give someone who you made yourself and that you know so well, the freedom of will to do as he or she pleases? And rein him back later on, even worse, correct what that person has made. It is like giving someone an idea or a job to do, say to him: you have the complete freedom to do as you will and later on, visible to all others, correct that person on that??
It puzzles me, sounds to me like bad parenting all the way.

No I agree with Asteroth on this one and I wonder if this was the cause of Melkor's demise. I have to admit that on every posy made by Asteroyth in this thread I wanted to reply like: I agree, my thoughts exactly. Smile Smilie

But then Valedhelgwath wrote:
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Hate and jealousy are also very powerful emotions. He needed a Valar to portray those too. In this way, by becoming Lord of destuctive forces of nature and negative emotions, Melkor came into being. In this scenario Tolkien does not try to explain Eru's reasoning for creating evil any more than other religions attempt to justify the creation of their own evil gods. Maybe Tolkien was deliberately vague because he did not have a reason why Eru would have created him.


Hate and jealousy are part of being pure, imho. If you would deny such feelings, would you ever be complete? Define purity. Is being pure only being Good? What is Good? How can you be Good and know that you are if you do not know the opposites of it? Order needs chaos. Hate balances Love. Yin & Yang.

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Of course, unlike Eru, Tolkien had a very real need to create Melkor. The books would have been pretty pointless without him.


I fully agree!! Thank you Tolkien!!
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Melkor was formed from the thoughts of Eru by the thoughts of Eru. Was the possibility of his evil already in Eru's thoughts? Was Melkor a 'wild-card'? Was he deliberate? What was Eru's reason for allowing it?


Who knows. Why does every fantasy story and religion need good and evil, good guys vs bad guys? Because otherwise it wouldn't make much of a story, i guess.

I think the definition of good is "accepting what the Valar or whatever deities created, and live together in harmony within that creation, with its creatures". The definition of evil would be "not accepting what whatever deities created, and because of that wanting to destroy or undo that creation, and rebuild it by your own plans". That's what Melkor had in mind : Melkor wanted to make a world on his own, a world completely according to his vision, without help from the other Valar, and rule like a King among its inhabitants forever. To me, evil is clearly not "slaying our beloved Hobbits, Elves and Men" because our beloved Elves and Men equally slay Orcs, Goblins, Balrogs and what not. To those so-called "evil" races, like Orcs, it are the Elves and Men who are evil. Whoever is considered 'evil' in a book, is the defeated one, as history is written by the victor.

Then Eru disrupted his plans, the music stirred by Melkor, by correcting his music and the other Valar then followed Eru's music. But Melkor still didn't accept this and then, from the very moment he entered Arda, til the moment he was pushed into the Void, the tried to undo the creations of his siblings. The inhabitants of Arda therefore call him "evil". We call that "evil". Because Morgoth lost, he got pushed into the Void.

I don't think Eru intended on Melkor becoming Morgoth, or become the adversary of the other 12 Valar who descended to Arda, the only thing he intended is that he made Melkor the most powerful of the Ainur, together with Manwe. Perhaps Melkor had the power to create his own Arda by himself. Eru clearly didn't intend on Melkor disrupting the music, otherwise he wouldn't have become so angry before correcting the music for the final time.

Well, we all should thank Melkor, as without the lad we wouldn't have much of a story. As in, no story at all. Just all happy Elves and Men, dancing around campfires forever.
Free will doesn't mean you can do exactly what you want. Free will means you have a choise. You are not a mindless puppy, like Aules dwarves were before Eru gave them life. But you are also given the knowledge of right and wrong. If you do something wrong, and you know it is wrong, you must also expect to be punished.

Melkor was forgiven for disrupting the Music because none of the Valar really knew what they were making untill Eru showed them. So he didn't really understand what he was 'disrupting'. Later he knew what he was doing, he knew he was acting against Erus wishes, knew he was destroying what others had worked hard to create, but he did it anyway. Over and over and over agian. That is when he became Morgoth the Enemy.

It is a bit like like when your parents tell you to be home at 10. You can choose to be home in time, or ignore them and suffer the consequence. And then they have to choose how much they are going to yell at you. Wink Smilie

About free will as part of Erus plan. Frodo was given a choise, like Isildur was, to take the Ring or to leave it and then later: to destroy the Ring or to keep it. Neither of them could give it up in the end, even if they knew they should. Smaegol/Gollum had the choise to take it or leave it. A choise that lead to the ring being destroyed. Seems to me Eru had updated his plans greatly, a looong line of choises for a whole buch of people leading to the Ring being destroyed.

A lot of free will leading to Erus wish being fulfilled. Juggling Smilie
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A lot of free will leading to Erus wish being fulfilled.

If it were to free will alone, evil would never be defeated. There would always be someone around to screw things up and allow evil to continue. And yet... just when it is time for Men to take control of Middle-Earth and all other races are withered and ready to leave, evil is destroyed just because of "free will". Everything falls into place nicely. You notice that even the Valar are interfering, if you have the time to read through the lines.

I say it was planned by Eru that Frodo would ultimately destroy the Ring, just the way Frodo would do it, wasn't. It was just predestined that Frodo would not fail his mission. Just not all details around Frodo's mission were predestined. Gollum for instance, probably was. Bilbo finding the Ring, was.

During that predestined mission, Frodo could still choose to kill Gollum instead of pulling him all the way through the Dead Marshes, he could choose to push Sam in the marshes, etc. but that wouldn't affect the outcome : Sauron Subdued.

It was also predestined for Aragorn to become King, for instance, and marrying Arwen. There was a prophecy he had to fulfill, even. People who love paradoxes, would say "It's not because it's a prophecy, you don't have a choice." You have a choice, but the other options s**k bigtime.

Because the gods don't want to write new scripts all the time, they hold the threads here and there, and push people on roads here and there... just not all the time. Come on, it are gods. We are just ashes and dust. How would we be able to understand gods and their thoughts.

In the name of Eru, lock this topic!
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In the name of Eru, lock this topic!

I choose not to do that. Wink Smilie

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You have a choice, but the other options s**k bigtime.

Hehe, yes exactly.

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How would we be able to understand gods and their thoughts.

Yes all we can do is guess. Tolkien is the real god in Tolkiens Middle Earth, only he knows why Eru does thing the way he does.
Scoot over, Ama, I'm jumping up on your soapbox!
As stated before in another thread somewhere,(my memory always fails me), the predestiny thing does not include the idea of choice-for example, you can choose to go left or right in your car-if you go right, you die in a crash, if you go left, you live. Spontaneity is not accounted for in the idea of predestiny, either. Let's say you've planned to do one thing, but choose to do another-does that mess up Destiny's plans for us? I think so. Gods or deities ideally do control our existence to an extent, but honestly, they do not control our minds, our opinions, our patterns of thought that we have been conditioned to use over the experiences and courses of our lives. Free will is not just about one making their own choices, though, it is also about one's ability to alter the course of their lives by taking one road versus another, just as it is one's choice which way they will lean-good, or evil. Eru's intention for Melkor may not have been for him to disrupt the creation process, but Melkor alone is the one who determined that, when he chose to misbehave. Personally, I would have beat the snot out of Melkor if I had been Eru, but that is irrelevant. Boring Smilie
Free will and destiny is a little like time travel....... does your head in!

But..... as someone (Vir I think) said, who are we to understand how a god's mind works? We cannot grasp the concept of an infinite universe, what chance do we have to understand Eru? Why should he not know all that is to happen? It doesn't mean that he has taken free will away or that he is controlling. It doesn't mean that because he knows what will happen there is no such thing as free will. The two run parallel. Free will is there, the choices will be made....... but such is the awesome power of Eru that he IS time and he knows all that will happen, whether by his own design or not. Maybe he throws in the occasional demand that something happens at an appointed time just to jog people along in the general direction?
Just one little thing I wanted to add to my earlier post is that every family has a 'black sheep'-Melkor was just the Ainurs'. I do tend to agree a bit with that as being part of a delicate balance somehow. I agree that the negative in life does make the good a bit sweeter.

Vee, you are correct-this could all boggle the mind for ages if you allowed it! Wary Smilie
One important thing missed here by most except one, is a point made by V.

Was ME an experiment etc... (I'm too lazy to quote, sorry!)

Anyways, I'm not saying anything here. I've posted my comments in a journal entry, which I'm in the process of writing right now. I'll post the link here when I'm done writing.

And, another thing. I agree that this thread should be locked. It'll be an endless and pointless conversation, if it's continued!!
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Virumor writes:
If it were to free will alone, evil would never be defeated. There would always be someone around to screw things up and allow evil to continue. And yet... just when it is time for Men to take control of Middle-Earth and all other races are withered and ready to leave, evil is destroyed just because of "free will". Everything falls into place nicely. You notice that even the Valar are interfering, if you have the time to read through the lines.


Yes I agree! But you know, I just struggle with the concept of Eru has decided that it should happen this way. Period. It all seems so pointless if that is the case. Why are you fighting for the good cause then? I mean it is like why should you even bother? What you say above is something I fully agree with. It is a mix of all. The characters of Tolkien do have the choice and do use their free will. But they are not doing it because Eru has decided that way, it is because they are willing to fight for *their* cause. That applies even for the 'faithless'' or even atheists.

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Virumor goes on :
Because the gods don't want to write new scripts all the time, they hold the threads here and there, and push people on roads here and there... just not all the time. Come on, it are gods. We are just ashes and dust. How would we be able to understand gods and their thoughts.


At that scale, yes. You might even wonder if Eru just peeked in, made Sauron stumble for a bit and Elendil and Gil-Galad brought him on his knees Wink Smilie

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In the name of Eru, lock this topic!


No... *whimpers* Please.. I am loving this topic immensly. It has made me pull out the Silmarillion again and rereading some things. Which can be only good Imho.
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Laurelindhe writes: Scoot over, Ama, I'm jumping up on your soapbox!


LOL we have soapboxes her? Nice!!!

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Gods or deities ideally do control our existence to an extent, but honestly, they do not control our minds, our opinions, our patterns of thought that we have been conditioned to use over the experiences and courses of our lives. Free will is not just about one making their own choices, though, it is also about one's ability to alter the course of their lives by taking one road versus another, just as it is one's choice which way they will lean-good, or evil.


Hear hear! That is the way to put something that I am trying to say but somehow doesn't wanna come out. That bugs me the most when people say: Eru has decided and that is it. It awakens the rogue in me to prove otherwise. Wink Smilie

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Eru's intention for Melkor may not have been for him to disrupt the creation process, but Melkor alone is the one who determined that, when he chose to misbehave.


But he did not do it intentionally at first. He was corrected, the way how was wrong imho, and after that it escalated. Eru made a mistake there... but well what followed after it gave us hours, days, weeks, months and even years of reading pleasure.

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Personally, I would have beat the snot out of Melkor if I had been Eru, but that is irrelevant


Two of my characters do that actually in a story of mine.. which was kinda cool to write!
Hmm. I was going to edit my original post here. But Rhapsody has posted twice in between. So, I'm posting this new message to give a link to the journal I mentioned above. Here it is :

Eru, Tolkien, Fiction, Facts and Us

I'm just posting this link here to keep the time-flow. It would seem odd, if I post this before Rhapsondy's two posts.
I wonder what Eru was doing while the tale of ME was unfolding? Catching up with email? Ironing? What other 'projects' did he have in mind?

If I ever get round to writing a story this might be the subject......
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Floyd wrote:Hmm. I was going to edit my original post here. But Rhapsody has posted twice in between.


Oh I am so sorry, but I couldn't resist.... But I read your journal entry. It is great, now I am going to let that simmer for a while... but where do you want reactions? Here?

You see why I said that Eru = Tolkien? Some questions are unanswerable.

But, maybe, Eru was sitting in a cinema, watching the movie that is called the History of Middle Earth play on the ME. Makes you wonder though. If you're the all-knowing, would it be interesting to watch something, that you already know is going happen?
V wrote:
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I wonder what Eru was doing while the tale of ME was unfolding? Catching up with email? Ironing? What other 'projects' did he have in mind?


Well in case of ironing, can you send him over to my house? Wink Smilie

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If I ever get round to writing a story this might be the subject......

Can't wait to read it! Go for it! Eru pondering while cooking, mmm where will I have a look next after I had dinner? Middle Earth? Narnia?
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You see why I said that Eru = Tolkien?


Yes I agree.
Somehow, all this is making me finish the Silmarillion very very quickly!! I'm so much more eager now to finish it!!
Good!!!!!!!!! You finish the book and I will think on your journal entry. There is much there, but I don't have the time now to get back at Smile Smilie
That is not a journal entry, that is an essay!
I am getting ready to leave for my holiday trip to USA and I have printed off your journal to read on the bus and to ponder. I will also carry along my copy of Sil and Tolkien's letters to keep me grounded. Smile Smilie
When I return, I plan to join this very interesting, although controversial, topic.
I cant keep up with you guys!!!! Your all crazy!! Elf With a Big Grin Smilie
Well, actually Nell, yes, it IS an essay. But, I couldn't find a place to fit it somewhere. It doesn't fit into the thread completely. And the only other way I could post it was through the Reading Group, but we weren't sure about it. So, I posted it as a journal entry. Well, to be frank, I've been trying to keep myself quiet and the journal entry is also not the whole thing I would have said. But, I guess, I couldn't resist!! It's been in my mind for a long time. And the discussions Rhapsody started in this thread and the Witch King thread somehow made me write it. *shrugs*
Yes, Eth-that's the fun of it! Crazy=Alive!

Rednell, I hope you have a wonderful holiday here in the U.S., I hope all of the people you encounter are as pleasant and gracious to you as you have been to us Yank members. Smile SmilieWhereabouts are you visiting?

Floyd_n_milian: That is a very engrossing and detailed "essay"/journal entry. You are a great addition to PT's huge base of knowledgable induviduals who share the love of all things Tolkien. Way to go! Thumbs Up Smilie

Also, I didn't get a chance to say this in any other thread, but Rhapsody, thank you for bringing your inquisitiveness and challenging mind to PT.

Enough gushing! Sorry to all who endured it! Rolling Eyes Smilie

The point of why I posted here was to say that it is correct to say that Tolkien=Eru because Tolkien was the creator of Middle Earth much the way a god is creator of his/her domain. The ability to create is also innate in humans as well; art, literature,speech, buildings, cities, etc. are all sub-creations made by us in attempt to enrich life, similar to an author's creation. So we all have a little god in us!
Well if we agree that Eru=Tolkien, then we are in fact agreeing that everything what happens in the Silmarillion, the Hobbit and LOTR is predestined, because JRRT created the story, the characters and decided how the story would go, and how the characters would fare. He decided what choices the characters would make, what path they would take, etc. Not much free will at all, eh.

I still think that it's both predestiny and free will : some things are predestined to happen, so that some people have a choice to make. Like for instance : the destruction of the Two Trees, which lead to the choice Feanor had to make : either destroying the Silmarils to get the light back, or not. He refused, so the War of the Silmarils began.

Examples from predestiny in LOTR would be : Bilbo finding the Ring, Gollum and Frodo meeting, etc.

Perhaps the biggest proof of predestiny is, that it is written that in the Dagor Dagorath, Morgoth is gonna be slain by Turin Turambar, helped by Tulkas and Eonwe.

But in the Silmarillion, there are things mentioned here and there which seem to lead to the theory of "predestiny, and nothing else" : for instance, it is mentioned that Mandos knows everything what is going to happen in Arda, everything that is described in the music of the Ainur. This seems to incline that there is only one future, created by Eru, instead of multiple future, endless possibilities, but all leading to the same conclusion : exit evil. But of course, for the same it could Mandos knew all possible futures, all possibilites... but as there is only one music of the Ainur, i don't know.
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Laurelindhe wrotes:
Also, I didn't get a chance to say this in any other thread, but Rhapsody, thank you for bringing your inquisitiveness and challenging mind to PT.


*blush* Thank you. It is really nice to find a spot where this is welcomed. Honestly. If my posts become essays, please let me know. Then I will behave myself.
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Well if we agree that Eru=Tolkien, then we are in fact agreeing that everything what happens in the Silmarillion, the Hobbit and LOTR is predestined, because JRRT created the story, the characters and decided how the story would go, and how the characters would fare. He decided what choices the characters would make, what path they would take, etc. Not much free will at all, eh.
However, if you read and compare UT, HOME, and The Letters to The Silmarillion, you will find that Tolkien's world was still a work in progress and as such everything that happened wasn't cast in stone, which predestination implies. Happy Elf Smilie
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