OK. Things seem to have gone a bit quiet around here, so I thought I'd stir things up a little.
Let's see then. Hmm. After reading the opening chapters of the Silmarillion 4 times, going through the Assignment 1
in the Silmarillion Reading Discussion Groups
thread and also this very thread, I've got things to say.
Since we're currently talking about free will here, I'll continue with it.
In the opening chapters of the Silmarillion, there is a mention of Arda reaching it's true potential before the end. (Please also see my posts in the Assignment 1
and Assignment 2
, as they might also be worth a mention in this thread.)
I recently had a chat with Val and it brought up some interesting points. Now, here's a part of the chat log about this "True potential of Arda" topic:
Valedhelgwath The true potential of Ea was the vision Eru had without the interference Melkor played
Valedhelgwath So it's final form is the mended, unmarred world
Valedhelgwath Prior to that, however, there is the Final Battle in which Melkor once again comes back with all of his allies
Valedhelgwath and the Gates of Mandos pour open releasing all of the Man and elves etc, to do a final battle
Valedhelgwath In this battle Melkor is eventually slain by Turin Turumbar
Valedhelgwath The dwarfs then assist Aule in rebuilding Ea
b]Valedhelgwath All of that, by the way, is described in one short sentance in HOME and nowhere else
floyd_n_milan in which age is this suppose to happen?
floyd_n_milan i mean what you just told me?
Valedhelgwath Tolkien doesn't mention ages beyond the 4th
Valedhelgwath I'd guess...
Valedhelgwath It's either theend of the 4th... The age of men
Now, Val was kind enough to get me the exact post on this:
It comes mainly from a note in Morgoth's Ring...
"This is a reference to the Second Prophecy of Mandos....
Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe (Eonwe) and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate, coming from the Halls of Mandos; and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged"
That is the mention of Turin's part.. The role of the Dwarves appears someplace else. There are several scattered references to the The End, the Last Battle (Dagor Dagorath) etc. I cannot place the exact reference to the Dwarves part, or the Hall of Mandos emptying for this battle, but I do recall reading it someplace.
And then he followed up with:
It is a note about a reference made in an early version of the Quenta Silmarillion which is talking about the Menelmacar star constellation (Swordsman of the Sky, or Orion) which was supposed to represent Turin.
Now I don't know the "Menelmacar star constellation (Swordsman of the Sky, or Orion)" part, because I'm still only on "Of The Flight Of The Noldor", but I thought better to quote this too.
Please also refer to the Saruman
thread. I also talked about Saruman to Val. Here's the log :
floyd_n_milan oh and just a small little question about Saruman's death
floyd_n_milan i read that thread
floyd_n_milan and there's a mention
floyd_n_milan that his spirit wasn't allowed to go back to the halls of Mandos
floyd_n_milan so what would exactly happen to Saruman?
floyd_n_milan his spirit i mean
Valedhelgwath I think he wasn't allowed back at that precise time, nor for a long time, but he would after a long time be allowed to return
Valedhelgwath If they let Melkor back after eons of being chained, I'm sure Saruman would eventually be allowed hom
floyd_n_milan then where would his spirit be during all that time?
Valedhelgwath Wandering, lonely, and lost... powerless to to anything
Valedhelgwath Fitting punishment
b]Valedhelgwath Some might disagree and say he was never allowed back, but I think he would
I hope you've read the Assignment 2
. Now, looking at the situation with Mandos, can we assume for a minute here that Eru knows as that's happening and all that is going to happen in the Middle Earth?
floyd_n_milan whatever's happening is happening according to Eru's will
Valedhelgwath Saruman may have seen it coming, but Men were not in the Music at all, and by interacting with them, his own future may have become clouded to him
Valedhelgwath In the 3rd theme Eru played a lot of melodies to counter Melkor and his allies
Valedhelgwath Men were his instruments to an extent
floyd_n_milan free will
floyd_n_milan that's where it all comes down
Valedhelgwath Some events seem to be pre-ordained by him to mess up Melkor's plans
floyd_n_milan but then again
floyd_n_milan Melkor could also be just acting according to Eru's vision
Valedhelgwath Except Eru seems to be countering what Melkor is trying to do with the music
Valedhelgwath Remember the music came before the vision
floyd_n_milan and Eru just showed them a vision from the music
floyd_n_milan was Melkor also shown the vision?
Valedhelgwath Yes... and each Valar tended to see only the parts they had created themselves
floyd_n_milan i somehow find myself questioning the whole existance of Melkor
floyd_n_milan i mean
floyd_n_milan he's got a part in all the Valar's powers
Valedhelgwath It is a starnge concept which JRR created, and I'm not utterly convinced he expected it to stand up to close scrutiny
floyd_n_milan Melkor, i think seems to be created for the whole purpose of opposing it seems, by Eru
floyd_n_milan then again
floyd_n_milan the Valar created the music based on what they had, of which the source was Eru himself
floyd_n_milan so in a way
floyd_n_milan it would seem that
floyd_n_milan Eru merely made them sing for his own thoughts or whatever
Valedhelgwath Or to create a world for his Children
floyd_n_milan then where's the free will of his children?
floyd_n_milan it would all seem like Eru was watching the Valar create a movie for him
floyd_n_milan based on his own script
Valedhelgwath I think they have free will, but he gave some of them the opportunity to go there own way
floyd_n_milan the children?
Valedhelgwath This seems to be the case with certain heros such as Aragorn, Frodo etc
Valedhelgwath They have choises presented to them
Valedhelgwath Eru provided the paths but they choose to take them or not
Valedhelgwath How many Frodo's failed to take the Ring to destroy... Did Isisldur not make the right choise, did not Gollum etc
Valedhelgwath How many other Men failed to do what Earendil did?
Valedhelgwath Eru gave men choises to follow his paths, but perhaps had contingancies in case they chose not to
Valedhelgwath Haw may Chieftains of the North failed to make the choises Aragorn made for instance?
Valedhelgwath Five Istari, in case a few fail
So, in the end, to what extent do we consider the free will? If Saruman had been acting according to Eru's plans, why should he be banned? If Mandos knows all, shouldn't Saruman be allowed to his halls? The A B C D plan mentioned here earlier comes into picture here again and also does the whole "Comic book" explaination. Do we look at this "free will" topic as a combination of both?