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Thread: Doom of Mandos

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Allyssa originally began this thread with the following post.

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Anyone interested in discussion on The Doom of Mandos? How come Finrod gets off the hook so easily, but Turgon's pleas are ignored by the Valar?


PlasticSquirrel replied

That's a bloody good point, I will have to go and find out.....
ihave tried to re-read it begin this month but i finally bought an english version of The Hobbit and started reading that and now i am re-reading the second harry potter novell (the camber of secrets) so it will take a while when i have some arguments for this topic.. i'm not used to these sort of topics..

but why do you say there's nothing interesting in the sil, there's the fall of gondolin and offcourse turin and hurin.. and stuff concerning the rings of power
Boring - (you really should try to improve your self-esteem)

When I said there was not much interest in the Silmarillion, I meant that no one else had put in any comments. I found The Silmarillion fascinating, in some ways more so than the LoTRs. Thanks for commenting though
Yeah, we had a bit more about it in the old Forum before it died. But it's not the time of year for thinking as hard as you have to to chat about the Sil. Admittedly, the usual topic of conversation about it is whether or not Chris tolkien is a totally shameless hanger on to his daddy's coat tails or not, and we've never come to a satisfactory conclusion.
I think Christopher T. does what he does because of publishers pressure him to. That is - they want money and are greately dismayed by the demise of a good money- spinner. Give Chris a break. Word is he's gone into hiding since the movies came out to escape the fanatics and inevitable stalkers and so on. (I'm sure he isn't avoiding nice people like us though)
CT should be big & ugly enough to resist any publisher's pressure...methinks it's the kerr-chink of the cash register that was irresistable. I don't blame him though, and he didn't do too bad a job with Silm.

And Boring's self esteem *has* improved - he is now Boring with a capital 'B'. Was just plain old 'boring' when I first met him. Smile Smilie

[Edited on 27/12/2001 by Ungoliant]
I'd twat him if I saw him around, for being so down on the movies and being such a git to his son for liking them. Grumpy old tosser!
I think Finrod gets let off because, in addition to having Galadriel for a sister, he accompanied Beren to Angband trying to retrieve a silmaril. There he died in Beren's service, in fullfillment of his oath to Beren's father. Other than that I haven't a clue.
That could be it grondy! Smile Smilie You cracked yet another case...

so thats why you were throwing pseudo silmarrils at us? you have won loads of them yourself and you need room for your other prizes and achievement memorials...

Self-esteem? i don't think i have it... I meanhow could I? thats for ppl whom are good-ish and just not me-ish
*hands Boring some of his spare self-esteem*
Hey, I don't know if my above guess was the real reason, because I can't seem to be able to comprehend who did what, where, and when in the Silmarillion. Too many near sounding names and dual named characters.

And Boring, if you want a Pseudo-Silmaril instead of, or in addition to, the cuddly badger for your Stoneingland answer, that can also be arranged. Smile Smilie
nah the stoningland whas to easy .. i just loked in the index...
I'll have it then!
just because something was easy for you is no reason to disregard your pseudo-silmaril, Boring...clearly looking in the index was too tough for the rest of us...haha...
Takes way too much effort! I'd leave that sort of thing to Grondy
Everything I think is easy is easy.. for me (duh) and i don't big awards for such things like pseudo silmarils....

I want the real thing... so i have to plot some plot... I know .. I need a spider who is femiliar with that sort of things... but i just don't like spiders... oww well just have to do with a bit of peppersauce and a lot of ketchup...
Nobody likes spiders! Sob.

What's with the ketchup & peppersauce thing?
that makes them taste better Smile Smilie
lol, Spider sandwich anyone?
Nor even in my soup. Big Smile Smilie
*curses Plastic & Boring so that they'll find bugs crawling in their next sandwich*

*feels guilty*

Ok then, tell me what your plan is, Boring. I'm in. As long as I get amply rewarded. Yea, with both hands!
What do you mean by Finrod gets off?
Because Finrod (Felagund) fulfilled his oath and died slaying the werewolf, while in Beren's service trying to regain the Silmarils, he was forgiven of his part of the Kinslaying.
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They buried the body of Felagund upon the hill-top of his own isle, and it was clean again; and the green grave of Finrod Finarfin's son, fairest of all the princes of the Elves, remained inviolate, until the land was changed and broken, anf foundered under destroying seas. But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.
From 'The Silmarillion', Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 19 entitled 'Of Beren and Luthien, pg 174-5. The italics are mine.

Finarafin had previously received the Valor's pardon having forsaken the march, and did not follow his sons or the son's of Fingolfin into exile in search of Morgoth and the Silmaril. (This paragraph is a paraphrase of material that can be found in Chapter 9 of the above, entitled 'The Flight of the Noldor', pg 88.)
Impressive insight Courtman, if I may say so. The involvement of Ulmo was not something I had considered before.

Still, I wonder if Turgon will spend a long time in the Halls of Mandos? At the beginning of the Sil, it was stated (I think) that the Noldor would never be realeased, no matter what. Yet this seems to be a threat since Finrod was released. So is it possible that after a length of time, Turgon, Fingon, Fingolfin, Orodreth, Angrod, Aegnor and even the sons of Feanor were released?
Thank you, Actually all elves are realeased from the halls at the same time, The Last Battle, after which both elves and men (all of them) will participate in the second music. I believe u meant the Doom of Mandos
I was refering to Elven reincarnation (a topic for another thread I think). Elves who have led good lives and / or repented of their sins in life, had their spirits or fea rehoused in a new body. I wondered if any of the Noldo rebels have repented of their sins, and been re-housed (or reincarnated) in Aman?

Imagine bumping into Feanor in the streets of Eldamar! Scary! Even for someone like Galadriel, who was always "creeped out" by him. Smile Smilie
Also i think that Turgon didnt get off so easily because of Ulmo's involvement. Ulmo's grand plan for the last hope of middle earth(which the rest of the Valar did not approve of, Ulmo never abandons middle earth, probably because he dosent spend much time in Valinor, and is very up to date on happenings in middle earth and cared too), Tolkien made it very clear that Tuor's comming to Gondolin was not supposed to happen. meaning that with Ulmo's help Tuor avoided fate, "a small nick in the armor of doom" and Turgon had much involvement in this, leaving the armor ect. also Tuor married Idril, Turgon's daughter, a blending of races that "fate will only suffer to happen but a few times." Also Turgon did not follow Ulmo's advice that when Ulmo's messenger came (Tuor) he should abandon Gondolin (lest it should fall) and issue it army from the gates, instead he held out and thus was desimated."
The Silmarrilion is my favourite book by Tolkien and I have one question:
Why the Valar did not want the elves to return to middle-earth and get the silmarils back? And I don't think Feanor was all that bad. I think that Feanor went after Morgoth not because of his silmarils but for his father. So I feel that Feanor is not as bad as some people think. I think Feanor's love for his father is above his love for his silmarils.
I think the Valar did not wish the Noldor to leave at that time because of the mood the Noldor were in. The messenger of Manwe said,
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Go not forth! For the hour is evil, and your road leads to sorrow that ye do not foresee.
Although they would not hinder the Noldor at this stage, Manwe probably knew from the Great Music what was in store for them should they leave. He also said, however, that the terrible Oath Feanor and his sons had sworn, had effectively banished them from Valinor.
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I think that Feanor went after Morgoth not because of his silmarils but for his father.
I think it may have been grief for his father that made him swear the Oath, and he did love his father more than the jewels, but Feanor would have followed Morgoth whether his father had been slain or not. He cherished the Silmarils too much for him to lose them.
Thanks for the insight, Valedhelgwath
Big Smile Smilie
However, about the Valar not wanting the Noldor to leave at that time, does that mean that when the time is right, the Valar will agree to strike at Melko to get the silmarils back?
You made a great point about the Feanor's love for his silmarils, but how about Yanvanna's love for her trees? Wouldn't she wanna strike back too?
Good point there Val..... but MadWannabe they said that they wouldn“t attack Melkor until a person who represented all the free people of Beleriand that they would incarserate Melkor in the Void..... Yavanna was not in a raging mood when Melkor destroyed the Two Trees. She wept and tried to heal the wounds of the trees. Remember that she wasn“t a Valar of anger or fury, but a healer. This is my opinion on the thing!
Oh...so there ere waiting for Earendil to appear...it is starting to make sense....
About Yavanna,well I gotta admit I didn't hear her fighting before, but ...maybe it is because of the Theme that Eru revealed to them that prevented the Valar from attacking. Is it safe to make that assumption?
I don“t believe I am wizer then any one in here in this subject but I can agree with you MadWannabe that it might be because of the Music of the Ainur that she didn“t do anything nor did anyone else of the Valars. Although remember that Melkor never really feared a single combat with ONE Valar except with Tulkas. He was completly terrified every time he heard Tulkas running feet. But then again I am not so wize in this so I will accept any comments on this.
I think the main reason that the Valar did not want to go to war with Melkor at this time, was due to the destruction it would cause. The first war with him had desrtroyed large sections of the landscape.

At this time they did not know the whereabouts of the second Children of Eru, the Men. They sensed their time of awakening was approaching, but they had no idea where it would be. They greatly feared going to war and destroying the place where Men lay hidden.

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but how about Yanvanna's love for her trees? Wouldn't she wanna strike back too?
I think in a way you have to look at the Valar as being aspects of nature (the Aratar) or emotions (the lesser Valar) rather than powerful people. Yavanna's power was to cover the earth with trees and flowers, and fill them with Kelvar. When the Valar go to war, I don't see them doing it with armour and swords, but by wielding the very forces they control; the wind, the sea, the mountains, grief and fear and joy etc.

In this aspect, Melkor was very powerful because the forces he controlled were more destructive. Obviously the Valar took on forms that were as they imagined the Children of Eru would look, but essentially they are aspects of nature, and perhaps quite restricted within those bounds.
The fact about Men's awakening is something I overlooked...and it seems to make more sense now....and I believe that Melko was powerful because he has all the powers of the Valar, only not as extensive and he wields the realm of fire and Ice.
Hmmm I believe you Val.....I forgot about the men.....but though they were also waiting for a person who represented both men and elves? that“s how I interpreted it....
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but though they were also waiting for a person who represented both men and elves? that“s how I interpreted it....
I think when the Noldor defied them and returned to Middle Earth anyway, they decided they had done enough for the Elves. At this stage, however, apart from creating the Sun and moon, they had done little for the Men. Basically, it took a Man therefore, to say to them, "can we have a hand, too please," and he needed to have Noldor blood too, so that they could be forgiven. It's a bit more complex than that, but that's basically the gist of things.
Okay Big Smile Smilie
I do not think so Dunce Smilie , Valedhelgwath...you said earlier that we shouldn't view the Valar as powerful people, but instead as aspects of nature...therefore, I do not think that the Valar are waiting for the Noldor to plead forgiveness, but instead they are just carrying out what was revealed to them in the Theme of Ainur and just waiting for the specific person to appear. The fact is not that Man needed the Noldor blood too to plead for forgiveness. I think Eru just wanted a representative of MEN who is a man to plead for help and not elves, that is why the elves who attempted to return to Valinor to ask for help failed...It is to let men plead on behalf of the elves, to save them. Yet it is no coincidence that Earendil had Noldor blood in him...so as all coincidences go...it is the work of god...ermmm...I meant Eru. Tongue Smilie
No MadWannabe I do not agree..... It said that Eärendil wasn“t allowed to get to Aman because he was a man and because he was of noldor blood it was a DOUBLE BIG NO-NO! But he came to Aman and Valinor only thanks to the Silmarillion on his forehead......But they were waiting for someone to beg for forgiveness of the Noldors crimes....And for begging for aid in the war against Melkor representing men and elves!
I do not agree with you Aule...If they were waiting for someone to beg for forgiveness and Men and the Noldor were not allowed back, who will be the representative then?
The fact that the representative was a man was to let the newly awakened race-Men to personally go to Aman to ask for forgiveness...why do you think the elves failed? Because they needed a man to do the job.... Tongue Smilie
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I do not agree with you Aule...If they were waiting for someone to beg for forgiveness and Men and the Noldor were not allowed back, who will be the representative then?
The fact that the representative was a man was to let the newly awakened race-Men to personally go to Aman to ask for forgiveness...why do you think the elves failed? Because they needed a man to do the job.... Tongue Smilie


Nope it said in the books that the only reason why he passed the obstacles to Aman was through the pure and holy silmaril.....
hhmmm...but have you wondered why it came to the possesion of a MAN and not an elf?
MadWannabe hello!!! He was halfelven!
His father Tuor was a man and his mother Idril was an elf!
The point of him having human blood was that he could plead to the Valar on behalf of Mankind as well as ask forgiveness for the follies of his elven forebearers too.

Earendil was unique in that his blood came from several different houses (The Noldor through his mother, and the 2nd and 3rd houses of the Edain through his father, while he was also lord of his wife's remaining people, which included Sindarin, Maian and 1st house of the Edain blood.)
I think this qualified him to best represent the free peoples who were fighting Morgoth.
:p Opps. Yes, he was half-elven...what I meant was that he had Man's blood coursing throgh his veins. Why would a person with Man blood be able to go to Aman while those who have elven blood and previously had assess to Aman not be the...ermmm....chosen one. That was the significance I was trying to bring across.
I completely agree with you Val.....but the silmarillion was the one that opened up the way for him to Aman....
Yes, I agree, he would not have made it were it not for the Silmaril (for which reason Ulmo had plucked Elwing out of the water and turned into a bird to find him).

It was not the Silmaril that gave him access to Aman though. Had Thingol, Beren, Dior or the Dwarves who for a time had stolen it, attempted to reach Aman with its power alone, they would have failed. It was Earendil's destiny to reach Aman and give the postBody, because he alone was Eru's agent to do this deed.

I do think it is significant, however, that he should need a jewel hallowed by Varda to complete his quest.
Ignore Smilie I say the same as Perwing Ignore Smilie
Here's a thought: maybe they wanted a unanimous decisions to ask pardon and aid, since Earendil combined all three races of both Edain and Quendi (the Vanyar through Turgons descent from Indis, the Noldor through his descent from Finwe, and the Teleri through his descent from Thingol, as well as the Edain in the manner previously noted..) All that said, yes the Silmaril was essential.