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We all know that Feanor and Fingolfin had a very strange relationship with each other. Feanor obviously had no feelings at all for Fingolfin except for resent, but Fingolfin's feelings towards his half-brother are slightly more complicated. Sometimes it seems he loves him and respects him as his brother, but at other times Fingolfin is rather cold. Do you think that maybe the more quiet brother Finarfin had something to do with this? Fingolfin's relationship with Finarfin was pretty close, and maybe the gentle, compassionate Finarfin healed bold Fingolfin's heart? I've always thought Finarfin had a part to play in the brothers. He should have been more use than just providing us with his offsprings. Girl Smilie

But back to Fingolfin and Feanor. Big Smile Smilie

Fingolfin went to Middle-Earth to fight Feanor's war. But after Fingolfin was betrayed by Feanor it was obvious neither would have much love for the other anymore. And in the end, both found their feas housed snugly in Mandos. But do you think that Fingolfin would forgive Feanor? (And I know all you Fingolfin fans will say "of course he'd forgive him") But even if he did forgive Feanor, do you think that the abyss between them would ever disappear? Would there ever be a day when everyone would no longer curse Feanor's name? And will there ever be a day when Feanor's spirit may be cooled and he may find peace and love with his brothers?

This last question might earn a few scowls from all you Tolkien purists out there, but really, Feanor has to have his chance at repenting and going out for a new life of joy too. And I've always felt rather sorry for him. He's so consumed by his own fire that he can never taste real joy. So what do you all think? I'm expecting a lot of posts on this thread... Cool Smilie
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Sometimes it seems he loves him and respects him as his brother, but at other times Fingolfin is rather cold.

After Fingolfin released FŽanor in the Ring of Doom after the latter had threatened to kill him ('See, half-brother!' he said. 'This is sharper than thy tongue. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be the master of thralls.'), and after Fingolfin voluntarily submitted to FŽanor, in order to keep the peace (Then Fлanor took his hand in silence; but Fingolfin said: 'Half-brother in blood, full brother in heart will I be. Thou shalt lead and I will follow. May no new grief divide us.'), FŽanor thanked Fingolfin by burning the swanships at Losgar and hence condemning Fingolfin and his followers to a hellish ordeal along the HelcaraxŽ.

Thus, Fingolfin had all the rights to be a bit cold towards FŽanor. Nonetheless, Fingolfin still honoured the House of FŽanor in Beleriand after FŽanor's death, as he knew the Noldor had to be united in order to defeat Morgoth (even though the sons of FÍanor were a bunch of raving nutters, safe Maedhros and Maglor).

I'm pretty sure that Fingolfin would again forgive FŽanor - Fingolfin is noble and wise, not brooding and cunning like FŽanor.

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This last question might earn a few scowls from all you Tolkien purists out there, but really, Feanor has to have his chance at repenting and going out for a new life of joy too. And I've always felt rather sorry for him. He's so consumed by his own fire that he can never taste real joy.

I doubt FŽanor ever experienced any joy in his life. He was the greatest mind, the greatest craftsman of all time, but for all his talent he didn't recieve any wisdom. FŽanor was a genius, but also an idiot savant. His whole life in Valinor was a restless struggle to pour all his talent, his spirit into great works - which culminated in the Silmarils. All his works were made because he believed it was the only thing that could possibly make him happy, give his life some meaning. Once he had made his 'masterpiece', his 'preciousssss', he considered his life to be complete and clinged to his precious jewelry like a shark to the leg of a hapless swimmer : his Simarils became his epitome of happiness.

That's why he went completely out of his mind, completely berserk after Melkor stole them, and burnt all bridges in order to get them back (*)- he never even thought about the consequences of his actions when he made his Oath and took the Doom of Mandos on the Noldor's shoulders; the only thing that gave his life meaning - the Sils - were gone, hence he decided to either retrieve them, or die in the process, not even taking in regard how many ppl would follow him -- his life was meaningless without his jewels.

That is the reason why FŽanor will never ever leave the Halls of Mandos before the Final Battle, the Apocalypse, Ragnarok, Dagor Dagorath, in which he will declare what material the Sils are made of.

(*) Some people believe that FŽanor went poco loco because of his father's brutal death, but i only consider this to be a contributing factor. With or without his father's death, FŽanor would've gone for Morgoth's jugular - if FinwŽ were still alive, he would've joined his beloved firstborn to Beleriand. FinwŽ's murder only worsened FŽanor's wrath and mental decay - it was oil on the fire within him, and this fire ignited the majority of the House of Noldor so they would join him. Soon though, this enthusiasm was quenched by the ruthless events initiated by FŽanor in AlqualondŽ and Losgar.

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He should have been more use than just providing us with his offsprings.

Being the wisest of FinwŽ's sons, Finarfin did the greatest deed in the War of the Jewels : he refused to join the Exile, only to gloriously appear in Beleriand 600 years later in the War of Wrath.

Fingolfin was more noble than wise. That's why he joined the Exiles - he gave FŽanor his word and duly followed it. Fingolfin trying to reconcile with FŽanor is probably due to Finarfin, but Fingolfin submitting to FŽanor is not. Fingolfin made a mistake thinking FŽanor was honourable. Somebody who is willing to sacrifice almost an entire House in order to get three chunks of glass (or whatever they are made of) back, isn't though.
Thanks for the long long answer. I really appreciated it. Big Smile Smilie

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Somebody who is willing to sacrifice almost an entire House in order to get three chunks of glass (or whatever they are made of) back, isn't though.


Feanor was pretty ruthless, and definately self-willed. But sometimes I just don't get it. Why do es such a clever being not understand right and wrong? Feanor knows just about everyhting except this. And it's ruined him. How can he, a Noldo who loves to preserve beauty and make beauty, not see the beauty of life? Surely that's the most beautiful of all things.

And Fingolfin, well, I agree that he was more noble than wise. I mean, taking on Morgoth alone? Brave, but foolish in my opinion. But he's the noble sort, so I suppose this is expected of him. You can't expect him to just sit and seethe with anger on his throne, now could you?

I, however don't think that Finwe would really follow Feanor into Exile. He loves his son, but I think he had enough wisdom to know his duties as a High King do not allow him to bandy with his brilliant son's rashness.
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Feanor was pretty ruthless, and definately self-willed. But sometimes I just don't get it. Why do es such a clever being not understand right and wrong? Feanor knows just about everyhting except this. And it's ruined him. How can he, a Noldo who loves to preserve beauty and make beauty, not see the beauty of life? Surely that's the most beautiful of all things.


Elven fea burn far stronger than those of Men. Part of a person's spirit is their emotion, which again will be stronger in an Elf. Because of the agelessness of elves that we see in Lothlorien and Rivendell during LotR, it is easy to think they have unbounded patience, but I don't think this is the case. Many of them seemed very driven by their emotions; Feanor with his crafting, Fingolfin with his bravery, Eol with his jealousy etc. In these individuals, that aspect of their emotion totally over-rode their wisdom. This is the case in many humans today. How many times do you hear people saying they did something wrong because they were in a rage? Often their pride does not let them repent and make ammends afterwards either, even when they know they are wrong. I think you are seeing something similar in Feanor. His passion was not just crafting. Unlike other elven craftsmen who tended to give away their work freely, Feanor also had a passion for the things he had created and coverted his own possessions. I think in a way he coverted his father's love in a similar manner, for he did not appear to like sharing it when Finwe remarried. He had no love for Indis or his two half-brothers.


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And Fingolfin, well, I agree that he was more noble than wise. I mean, taking on Morgoth alone? Brave, but foolish in my opinion. But he's the noble sort, so I suppose this is expected of him. You can't expect him to just sit and seethe with anger on his throne, now could you?


When I first read the Silmarillion, I thought how noble and brave Fingolfin was to duel Morgoth. Each time I read it, however, that diminishes a little. The fight was futile and achieved nothing. Fingolfin did not attack Morgoth out of pride, but out of dispair after the might of the Noldor was broken during the Battle of Sudden Flame.

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I, however don't think that Finwe would really follow Feanor into Exile. He loves his son, but I think he had enough wisdom to know his duties as a High King do not allow him to bandy with his brilliant son's rashness.


Finwe had already followed Feanor into exile when Feanor was banished for twelve years from Tirion.

From Of the Silmirils and the Unrest of the Noldor
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Thither also came Finwe the King, because of the love that he bore to Feanor; and Fingolfin ruled the Noldor in Tirion.


Formenos was not as far as Middle Earth, but he had abandoned his subjects for his son once before. I think he would have followed him again had Morgoth not killed him.
Well, following Feanor to Formenos is one thing, but abandoning the Valar and leading all the Noldor out to Middle-Earth? That's plain madness and no matter how much Finwe loves Feanor I don't think he'd be such a bad king to his people.
Between them, Feanor and Fingolfin took the greater part of the Noldor into exile with them. Of the Noldorian princes, there was only Finarfin who remained. Even Finrod Felegund, who was considered among the wisest of elves, followed Fingolfin. By going to Middle Earth Finwe would not be abandoning his people, he would be leading them to war. Better to leave those who remain safely back home under the leadership of one of his sons than those going to war.
Hmmmmm....you have a point, Val...

But wouldn't Finwe try to convince the Noldor to stay instead of supporting Feanor? Oh what am I saying, of course he couldn't do that. His people were lost in his son's words.

So I guess he would have gone after all.

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Even Finrod Felegund, who was considered among the wisest of elves, followed Fingolfin.


Finrod was wise, but he didn't go to Middle-Earth because of wisdom. He did it more out of love for his cousins. But I admit that if Finrod hadn't gone to ME he wouldn't have been accounted wisest. Some things you just can't learn in Valinor, sometimes you have to do something really stupid to acquire wisdom, which is why he's named even before his father Finarfin in wisdom.
Finrod wouldíve been named equally wise if he had stayed behind with his father. It is true that he ventured to Beleriand out of love for the sons of Fingolfin, and perhaps also out of love for his brothers and sister, yet if he had stayed he wouldíve done that out of love for the Vanyarin princess AmariŽ, his betrothed.

Finrod is perhaps the only Noldo who didnít venture to Beleriand because he wanted to avenge FinwŽ, or meet FŽanor again like Fingolfin, or because he wanted to see and rule the lands over the Sea like Galadriel, but out of love. He went out of love and if he had stayed behind, he wouldíve done that out of love as well.

No matter what Finrod wouldíve done, heíd be the wisest Elf anyway. The reader wouldíve only been ripped of some of the most noble and altruistic actions in the history of Arda, had he stayed with his father.

The greatest Elves in the history of Arda clearly come from the combination of Vanyarin, Noldo and Teleri genes : the House of Finarfin.
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FŽanor was a genius, but also an idiot savant. His whole life in Valinor was a restless struggle to pour all his talent, his spirit into great works - which culminated in the Silmarils. All his works were made because he believed it was the only thing that could possibly make him happy, give his life some meaning. Once he had made his 'masterpiece', his 'preciousssss', he considered his life to be complete and clinged to his precious jewelry like a shark to the leg of a hapless swimmer : his Simarils became his epitome of happiness.


I think most of these 'talented' people find happiness in their works. To utilise their talents, skills is THE joy in their life. If I created a masterpiece, something I could never ever better again, I would want to hurt the person who destroys it or steals it from me! Whether I would actually go and hurt the person depends on my 'wisdom'.

I think the reason Feanor would never leave the halls of Mandos wasn't because he loved his creation too much. But because he lacked that 'wisdom' that would have saved many lives, including his own.

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I'm pretty sure that Fingolfin would again forgive FŽanor - Fingolfin is noble and wise


I don't think forgiveness has to do anything with being noble and wise.. not always. Sometimes, people who forgive can make a real fool out of themselves. There are some things which should never be forgiven. But again that varies depending on the situation.

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Being the wisest of FinwŽ's sons, Finarfin did the greatest deed in the War of the Jewels : he refused to join the Exile, only to gloriously appear in Beleriand 600 years later in the War of Wrath.


This I find really interesting. Throughout Tolkien's works, you will find words of praise associated with people who do mighty deeds in battle; people who kill most enimies; people who kill better than others. I find it quite funny that the word 'wise' should be associated with a person who pulled himself out of the war. Take Fingolfin's example.

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When I first read the Silmarillion, I thought how noble and brave Fingolfin was to duel Morgoth. Each time I read it, however, that diminishes a little. The fight was futile and achieved nothing. Fingolfin did not attack Morgoth out of pride, but out of dispair after the might of the Noldor was broken during the Battle of Sudden Flame.


This sums it up for me. The first impression was that he was brave and noble. Upon thinking properly, he was stupid! It's been a while since I read the Silmarillion, so I don't remember what Tolkien said about Fingolfin's deed, but I wouldn't be surprised if he praised it for bravery.

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FŽanor thanked Fingolfin by burning the swanships at Losgar and hence condemning Fingolfin and his followers to a hellish ordeal along the HelcaraxŽ.


I think need some refreshing of my memory here. But, couldn't Fingolfin have turned back instead of going to Beleriand at this point? If it was possible for him to turn back then, then I think he did exactly what Feanor did! Again, I don't remember exactly where Fingolfin was then.. pardon me if I'm wrong.
Ok folks! After about half an hour of me posting my previous post, I get engaged in a conversation with Miruvor about it. Here's what said to each other. Hope you people find it interesting. (I'm posting with his permissions)

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Miruvor says:
what do you mean when you say "Fingolfin did the same as FŽanor" ?
floyd_n_milan says:
meaning
floyd_n_milan says:
Fingolfin also dragged his people to death and pain, just like Feanor did, just for his own pride or whatever
floyd_n_milan says:
though like i said
floyd_n_milan says:
my memory of that event is vague
floyd_n_milan says:
if he had no alternative than going to Beleriand, then he's forgiven
Miruvor says:
he was forced to drag his ppl through death because of FŽanor
floyd_n_milan says:
yes, but instead he could have gone back to Valinor, if that was still possible of course
Miruvor says:
FŽanor betrayed his borther by burning the ships, so they were forced to cross the HelcaraxŽ
floyd_n_milan says:
yeah i know that part
Miruvor says:
Fingolfin had given his word to FŽanor before that he'd follow him
floyd_n_milan says:
so?
floyd_n_milan says:
what is more noble?
Miruvor says:
honour was important to him, unlike for FŽanor.
floyd_n_milan says:
not breaking your word or saving people from death?
floyd_n_milan says:
meaning
floyd_n_milan says:
honour was more important to him than his peoples' lives?
Miruvor says:
don't forget everybody was stirred by FŽanor's words and were willing to leave Valinor
Miruvor says:
and after the betrayal, they wanted to go to Beleriand to meet FŽanor again and kick him in the groin.
floyd_n_milan says:
which was foolish
floyd_n_milan says:
i think you give too much credit to Fingolfin
floyd_n_milan says:
Finarfin stayed back
floyd_n_milan says:
he is wise
floyd_n_milan says:
he saved his people
Miruvor says:
with only a few Elves.
Miruvor says:
all his children were gone.
floyd_n_milan says:
Fingolfin could have turned back and saved whoever that would have followed him
floyd_n_milan says:
so why is Finarfin wise if he saved only a few people?
floyd_n_milan says:
surely, he would have been counted as brave had he gone to battle?
Miruvor says:
he would still be wise if he wjould've been the only one who turned back
Miruvor says:
i don't call that brave, really.
floyd_n_milan says:
Tolkien does hehehe
Miruvor says:
the fight could never be won.
floyd_n_milan says:
true
floyd_n_milan says:
that's stupidity
Miruvor says:
but don't forget that most of Fingolfin's house went ot Beleriand not to fight Morgoth, but because they watned to see the lands over the Sea
Miruvor says:
and some went because their friends went.
floyd_n_milan says:
yeah i know
floyd_n_milan says:
but that still doesn't make me think of Fingolfin any better than Feanor
floyd_n_milan says:
like you said
floyd_n_milan says:
even if he had turned back himself, he would have been wise
floyd_n_milan says:
like Finarfin
Miruvor says:
Fingolfin didn't betray his brother, start the Kinslaying, ...
floyd_n_milan says:
i know he didn't
floyd_n_milan says:
but that doesn't mean he was a saint who could do no wrong!
Miruvor says:
i didn't say he was.
floyd_n_milan says:
i think you're over critical of Feanor
Miruvor says:
i think that Fingolfin vs Morgoth is as stupid as FŽanor rushing to Beleriand to retrieve his silmarils.
Miruvor says:
but i think Fingolfin was convinced that his entire house was obliterated, and so he wanted to die in style.
floyd_n_milan says:
again my friend
floyd_n_milan says:
dispair is the key
floyd_n_milan says:
rage is the key
floyd_n_milan says:
Feanor felt the same
floyd_n_milan says:
only problem was, that he had the Noldor following him
floyd_n_milan says:
i mean really
Miruvor says:
FŽanor was basically berserk from the moment the Sils were stolen until his death.
Miruvor says:
Fingolfin, only when he realized the Noldor were finished.
floyd_n_milan says:
shouldn't all the Noldor be blamed for their stupidity instead of Feanor only?
floyd_n_milan says:
well, i think i can understand why Feanor went berserk
floyd_n_milan says:
i don't blame him for that
floyd_n_milan says:
kinslaying was wrong true
Miruvor says:
i do
floyd_n_milan says:
he shouldn't have started it
Miruvor says:
even the life of one Noldo is worth more than the 3 Silmarils.
Miruvor says:
FŽanor should've trusted the Valar.
floyd_n_milan says:
well yes and no
Miruvor says:
only their power could retrieve the Silmarils.
Miruvor says:
but FŽanor thought they were as bas as Melkor.
floyd_n_milan says:
life of the Noldor was more important
floyd_n_milan says:
but the Noldor DID have the choice not to follow him
Miruvor says:
the problem with FŽanor is his spirit. Pure fire, pure rage. No wisdom.
floyd_n_milan says:
yes he did
floyd_n_milan says:
look what happened with Anakin..
floyd_n_milan says:
he thought the Jedi were evil!
floyd_n_milan says:
same thing
floyd_n_milan says:
it's always a point of view!
floyd_n_milan says:
yeah that spirit thing, i agree with you upon
Miruvor says:
FŽanor was stupid when he thought he could overthrow Morgoth and get the Sils back.
floyd_n_milan says:
rage and despair does that to a person
floyd_n_milan says:
that is why, not everyone is wise
Miruvor says:
anyway, don't you think Fingolfin and Finarfin were outraged when they were told their father was murdered?
floyd_n_milan says:
lol we're back to ground zero
floyd_n_milan says:
didn't we agree that Feanor was NO WAY NEAR wise enough?
Miruvor says:
i think so
Miruvor says:
the problem with FŽanor is his spirit
floyd_n_milan says:
he was too passionate with no thinking ability
floyd_n_milan says:
yes it is
floyd_n_milan says:
i agree
Miruvor says:
Fingolfin and Finarfin were wise because of Vanyarin blood, me thinks
Miruvor says:
if FŽanor was only a tad wise, the history of Arda would've been com-ple-te-ly different.
Miruvor says:
he was a 'chosen one' in a way, and also blew it.
floyd_n_milan says:
yeah
Miruvor says:
in the end, FŽanor did what he did only to get 3 bulbs of light back.
floyd_n_milan says:
yeah which was his only love in life
floyd_n_milan says:
his greatest creation
Miruvor says:
all that misery and sorrow for nothing, as they were lost for them for ever.
floyd_n_milan says:
yes indeed
Miruvor says:
that was my argument, in fact. He did what he did because the Sils were his epitome of happiness.
Miruvor says:
it all comes down to a genius who was unable to temper his spirit.
floyd_n_milan says:
well, he would be able to temper it, if he was wise
Miruvor says:
well maybe he was who he was because of FinwŽ, in fact. without a mother, FŽanor was the spoilt, rich kid to whom his father could never say no
floyd_n_milan says:
true agreed
Miruvor says:
he also had no friends, for instance
Miruvor says:
he only loved his father, and his silmarils.
Miruvor says:
his wife couldn't influence him either
floyd_n_milan says:
both of which he lost to Morgoth
floyd_n_milan says:
i would definitely want to kill Morgoth for that!
floyd_n_milan says:
but then, i'm wiser than Feanor Wink Smilie
floyd_n_milan says:
so after my initial surge of anger is passed, i'd sit down and think
Miruvor says:
no Elf or Man can kill a Vala.
floyd_n_milan says:
yeah but i wouldn't realise that when im blinded by anger would i?
Miruvor says:
you wouldn't be blinded by anger as long as FŽanor now, would you?
floyd_n_milan says:
and no, that's why i said, i am wiser than Feanor and my spirit isn't so 'fiery' either Tongue Smilie
Miruvor says:
of course, the lies that Melkor had spread did also have an influence
Miruvor says:
not on FŽanor, but on the rest of the Noldor.
Miruvor says:
it contributed to the whole mess.
floyd_n_milan says:
yups it did
floyd_n_milan says:
and they did have an influence on Feanor too
floyd_n_milan says:
because in the end, he didn't trust the Valar
floyd_n_milan says:
of course that wasn't the only reason
floyd_n_milan says:
but im sure they contributed
Miruvor says:
Galadriel percieved a darkness in FŽanor's heart
Miruvor says:
but it was in all hearts
floyd_n_milan says:
there you go now!
floyd_n_milan says:
exactly what im talking about!
floyd_n_milan says:
don't go blaming Feanor alone, for everything
Miruvor says:
but the most wise Noldor were able to percieve, and resist.
floyd_n_milan says:
yes, that's why they were wise!


floyd_n_milan fixed the typos. 7th November 2005, 18:05 IST
Wow! The chat room...great place... too bad I've never been able to log on.

I was laughing my head off while reading your conversation. I don't know why, it just sounds so funny...
This was not a conversation in the PT chatroom, it was a conversation on msn.

And how ironic that for once one tries to hold a serious conversation, people find it funny..

Now i know how Legolas feels..
Awwwww....poor Mir feels like Legoboy...how many swooned at you today?
Come on Cloveress, cut Miruvor some slack here, he is in one of his erudite periods, and I'm enjoying his serious discussions more than his lyrical substitutions, and much more than his movie putdowns. Elf Sticking Tounge Out Smilie Wiggle Smilie Elf With a Big Grin Smilie
Mir's always sarcastically serious, Grondy. I would think you'd know him by now (you know him longer than I do anyways). But of course, when things come to a sombre book matter old Mir can usually stay solemn for about three or four posts.

And since when was Val a guy?
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And since when was Val a guy?


Pretty much always
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Pretty much always

Still in denial, mate? Not good...
See what I mean??!! That, my friends, is typical Miruvor talk for you!
FŽanor is very alike to Mordred in Stephen King's Dark Tower cycle, who immediately after birth literally sucked all life out of his mother.

FŽanor too, sucked so much of his mother's life energy and spirit that after she had given birth to FŽanor, she had no more will to live.

FŽanor should really be renamed to 'NosfŽaratu', who sucks Elven fŽa to stay alive. A fantasy version of a neuro-vampire.

Already as a baby, FŽanor took so much for himself that it caused someone's downfall.. tragic, really. Perchance FŽanor was the child of Melkor's, ŗ la Damien in The Omen. Who knows.
A child of Melkor? That's a bit harsh... I still hold to the thought that some sour note in Melkor's music blended with Eru's, and perhaps even a few bars of Mandos wormed its way into this mixture. Anyways, what it made sure was unhappy news for Miriel.
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Anyways, what it made sure was unhappy news for Miriel.
Yes, but it certainly gave Tolkien the seeds for a set of wonderful tales, which we have been allowed to read. Had his been a mundane life we would have missed Tolkien's epic.
Oh great, now I feel like I'm getting joy from another person's suffering...
One's death, is another one's breath.

Should be 'bread' in fact, but unlike in Dutch, it doesn't rhyme in English that way.
That's just the way it works, isn't it? We all have to stand on something to stand high.
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We all have to stand on something to stand high.

Yes, but unfortunately there's only place for one column on Trafalgar Square.
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We all have to stand on something to stand high.
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Yes, but unfortunately there's only place for one column on Trafalgar Square.
Ah, but to come up with something new, scientists and other academics usually stood on the shoulders of those who had gone before, as have new military tactics been often wrongly learned by studying the last conflict. Thus someone could stand upon the shoulders of Lord Nelson to obtain an even higher level of misunderstanding. Elk Grinning Smilie