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Thread: Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri

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The VanyarThe Vanyar (Light Elves) were the fairest elves and few on Middle-Earth have ever beheld them. They had golden hair and were most beloved of Manwe and Varda. They were the typical goody goodies among Elves, they listened to the Valar, they distrusted Melkor (which shows they are wise too), they loved the light and bliss in Valinor and were content. They loved beauty and poetry, and it may be said that they were a piece of beauty themselves.

the Noldor
The Noldor (Deep Elves) were the most skilled of the three kindreds of the Eldar in craft. Pure Noldors generally had dark hair (though Nerdanel was a redhead).

They were beloved of Aule the Maker, and learned much from him. However, they were rebellious (or rather, Feanor was rebellious), and though they were also wise they were not like the Vanyar. You can't just say,"I'm a Vala and I say you guys should stay in Valinor" to a Noldo and expect him to do as you command. The Noldor were proud and fiery-hearted (and I'm not just talking about Feanor). Together with being gifted, that makes quite a dangerous combination.

The Teleri
The Teleri (Sea Elves) were the largest group. They were not all necessarily "sea elves", some of them were "wood elves", but they all felt the call of the sea strongly and yearned for it. They can build lovely ships and havens by the sea, and they love to sing, for their voices are fair. They were not noted for their beauty and wisdom like the Vanyar or for their skill and cunning like the Noldor, thus some people might get the impression that the Teleri were simpler than other Elves. Maybe they were, but don't forget old Thingol Greycloak!

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But now we've gotta come back to the subject of elves in general. I've once had an interesting conversation on another Tolkien-related site about the meaning of Elven existence. What was the meaning of their being if they had to fade in the end?

And from that convo I concluded a few points. This may not be a very full-scale conclusion, so if you have anything to add just say so.

1) Elves exist in the sense of beauty. They are fair, and can (like flowers) beautify the world both physically and spiritually.
2) Elves are a symbol of wisdom. They know things from their experience of a long life.
3) Elves were the teachers of Men. The Valar taught the first Elves, and the Elves taught the first Men
4) Elves are dedicated to finding and preserving what is fair to them (the three elven rings, the Silmarils ect). Through them lives wonder, and through them lives the light.
5) Elves also became sorrow as the years grew. They had seen much, suffered much, and remembered it all, yet they probably had to see many tragedies repeating themselves (evil lord rises, fails, repents, resents, rises again, gets crushed, second evil lord rises, fails, repents, resents, rises again, gets crushed...)

Now we can talk about the three groups of the Eldar again. You see the elves are very much associated with beauty, within and without. The Vanyar, in this sense, would be the carriers of light and bearers of beauty. They'd be the lovers of beauty. The Noldor are the makers and preservers. The Teleri would be the travellers and spreaders of beauty.

It can be understood why the Noldor and Teleri (mostly Sindar) were more moved by greed than the Vanyar, and why Morgoth had a much easier time using them.

But each tribe has its pros and cons, and the Vanyar were not perfect, neither were the Noldor or the Teleri. They were just different. I remember hearing Miruvor(or was it Grondy?) say that the wisest of the Elves came from the blood of the three kindreds combined (aka Finrod Felagund). I doubted it for a while, but now... Elf Rolling Eyes Smilie well, it does make some sense.
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Elves also became sorrow as the years grew. They had seen much, suffered much, and remembered it all, yet they probably had to see many tragedies repeating themselves (evil lord rises, fails, repents, resents, rises again, gets crushed, second evil lord rises, fails, repents, resents, rises again, gets crushed...)

That’s only true for the Elves in Middle-earth, not for all Elves. And as for the Elves in Middle-earth, it’s not necessarily true for the Avari, as those probably never even bothered with the Atani.

Elves who left or never made it to Valinor fade because the original world that was made by the Valar, and the Elvenhome - the Isle of Almaren in the Great Lake - within it, was marred by Melkor : his evil dissipated in every molecule of Arda, including the living beings within it.

Only one place in Arda was safeguarded from the influence of Melkor : Valinor, Elvenhome Revisited. Safe for the Noldor, all Elves in Valinor have always lived happily and unweary there, until Arda would be remade.

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I remember hearing Miruvor(or was it Grondy?) say that the wisest of the Elves came from the blood of the three kindreds combined (aka Finrod Felagund).

It’s logical that the greatest Elves come from the mix of 3 different genepools. It’s simple genetics – stagnation and lingering in the same genepool for too long, is detrimental for every race.

The House of Finarfin combined the genes of the 3 races of the Eldar, and as a consequence produced some of the greatest Eldar ever – Galadriel and Finrod.

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Now we can talk about the three groups of the Eldar again. You see the elves are very much associated with beauty, within and without. The Vanyar, in this sense, would be the carriers of light and bearers of beauty. They'd be the lovers of beauty. The Noldor are the makers and preservers. The Teleri would be the travellers and spreaders of beauty.

All Elves are lovers of beauty and associated with beauty. Just the way they express this beauty, differs. To me the Vanyar, the smallest group of Eldar, are the Quendi who are closest to Manwë and Varda, and the greatest musicians.

The Noldor are the ones closest to Aulë, hence the greatest craftsmen.

The Teleri who never left the Great Journey, are close to Ossë and Uinen, hence great seafarers.

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It can be understood why the Noldor and Teleri (mostly Sindar) were more moved by greed than the Vanyar, and why Morgoth had a much easier time using them.

Melkor was never able to influence the Teleri, as far as i can recall. Only the Noldor listened to him, as they were craftsmen and were eager to learn from another great craftsman.

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Pure Noldors generally had dark hair (though Nerdanel was a redhead).

I thought it was only a reddish brown. Auburn.
Ah, it feels good to have Mir correcting my posts. But I still have a few things to say...

First, comcerning the genepool thing, it was only the third generation, so the effect of genes wouldn't be too great.

Second. concerning Morgoth and the Teleri,
Morgoth may not have influenced Teleri (I'm talking about the Moriquendi Teleri) directly, but his darkness seeped through them in forms of malice. Lust and hatred, for example, came to Maeglin (though he wasn't pure Sindar) and greed wormed its way into Thingol's mind through the Silmaril.

Finally, concerning Nerdanel's hair colour,
Where in the books does it say what her hair colour is? The only reason I know she's auburn is from reading fan-fictions online.
The only direct references I can find to this are in HOME but it does not say explicityly that she had red or auburn hair but that two of her sons were both red haired and

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the first and last of Nerdanel's childred had the reddish hair of her kin.


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...referring to the red, red-brown hair of the first, sixth and seventh sons of Fearnor, descending to them from their maternal grandfather, father of Nerdanel, Fearnor's wife...


I would have thought that if Nerdanel had red hair it would have included her, not just her father. It is possible that the red hair skipped a generation.

Anyone know of any other references to her hair colour?

About Thingol and the Silmaril : Morgoth was certainly not able to enter Thingol's mind through the Silmaril, as the Silmaril was unmarred by any evil and could never be touched by anything evil - why do you think Morgoth burnt his hands on it?

Thingol and the Silmaril should not be compared with Gollum and the Ring at all.

About the genes : genes make what make every being what he or she is; how can it not have an effect, then? The House of Finarfin had Vanyarin, Noldo and Teleri genes, and hence the traits that come with them genes were theirs.

Of course, their characters were also influenced by education; their father was a wise and kin man - if Fëanor had raised them, they would've been quite something else, perhaps.

If Galadriel had been the daughter of Fêanor, then Middle-earth would for sure have had a "Queen, stronger than the foundations of the earth, blablabla".

As for Nerdanel : there's a nuance. It's "reddish" and not "red". I say 'auburn' because auburn is a reddish brown.
Well, the Silmarils may have been hallowed by Varda, but they were the lust of Morgoth (and many others). And if beauty in the end cannnot do anything but encourage lust than it doesn't seem so pretty after all.
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And if beauty in the end cannnot do anything but encourage lust than it doesn't seem so pretty after all.

I hope Paris Hilton will one day understand this...
Ah she'll learn...after she forsakes the life of an heiress to become a beggar for her true love.
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Ah she'll learn...after she forsakes the life of an heiress to become a beggar for her true love.

Money can't buy one love, and a beggar can't buy one food.

Tough choice for Miss Hilton there.
Maybe Miss Hilton doesn't care about true love. As long as she gets a dozen pretty boys tied around her finger, she isn't going to be afraid of anything.
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As long as she gets a dozen pretty boys tied around her finger, she isn't going to be afraid of anything.

Are you saying she's currently dating the Wiener Sängerknaben?
Wiener? What, she's gonna eat her boyfriend?