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I wonder if anyone knows of a quote by Tokien stating that melkor was either the ultimate evil of arda in all the ages or a quote stating that melkor was irrational?
Thanks
I don't know of any direct quotes but Tolkien refers to Melkor/Morgoth in 'Letters' as the 'Prime Dark Lord'. Also, Melkor was seen as the eldest of the Valar and had the greatest gifts of power and knowledge from Eru so it is hard to think of anything that could be more evil and powerful than Melkor.

I wonder if some of Melkor's evil/corruption (or whatever) seeped its way through the music into the creation of elves as Feanor seems to have a few of Melkor's traits when it comes to vanity, desire, ambition, greed... ?

Yes i agree melkor is the supreme evil of the world but unfortunately on another forum a very heated debate has arison with people saying that Sauron was more evil than Melkor. They provide a quote by tolkien saying that sauron is the most evil of all beings that are rational in his book. Now unless i have a quote stating that melkor was more evil or was irrational i am afraid the agument is lost. there must be a quote somewhere.
I don't know which quote you are referring to. Good discussions are not based on one quote taken out of context so if you want comments on 'the quote' you must give us more information.

By the way, I deleted one of your other threads as you were asking exactly the same question there as you have here.

To address a couple of your comments in other threads, we do use English here but our membership is worldwide and that is something we cherish and we respect other opinions whether or not we disagree.
Hmm well on this other forum they have a quote stating that of all rational beings Sauron was the most evil. if i provide a quote stating that melkor is irrational then I have utterly flawed there quote they have clung to so tightly. Melkor in my mind certainly seems irrational, at least after his imprisonment in the halls of mandos.
To be precise the quote goes something like this..."For i do not believe in wholly evil for that would be zero. In my story sauron is the most evil of rational beings."
Now why would Tolkien have said 'rational beings' if that was meant to include all beings? He should have simply said "In my story Sauron is the most evil of beings", but he put rational beings so that must mean than at least one irrational being was more evil than him so that must mean morgoth.
I just need the quote...
Excuse any offence from me towards non brits, it was not intended to be offencive, it is just when the site home page came up somewhere it said it was britains largest online Tolkien community i just assumed most were brits.
Ungoliant and Shelob were a comparable unrational evil duo to that of Melkor/Morgoth and Sauron; and the relative evilness between each of the paired members is about the same, IMHO.
Any means of reasoning and logic they do not seem to be able to care for on this other forum. Unless you can provide text evidence your (anyones) oppinion is nothing to them.
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Yes i agree melkor is the supreme evil of the world but unfortunately on another forum a very heated debate has arison with people saying that Sauron was more evil than Melkor. They provide a quote by tolkien saying that sauron is the most evil of all beings that are rational in his book. Now unless i have a quote stating that melkor was more evil or was irrational i am afraid the agument is lost. there must be a quote somewhere.


I opened the other thread (Morgoth I Cried), in which you also raised this question, before this one. Funny enough, not knowing the reason for your enquery, but just seeing your statement claiming Morgoth was the more evil of the two, I actually countered that with an argument of my own, saying that was not necessarily so. It would seem then, the discussion (not argument) has spilled over onto this site. That is a good thing, as differences of opinion make for great discussion.

Maybe as people discuss this question on this site, ideas will come forward that were not discussed on the other site, and provide you with ammunition to use there. I will post my previous answer to your question over here, as having similar discussions occuring in two threads becomes messy and confusing.

Lord of all posted

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Just so everyone here is certain Melkor, morgoth upon arda is the most evil of all beings so don't some people start thinking sauron is more so. Just something stupid which came up on another forum, that some people started saying that Sauron was the more evil.


Grondmaster replied

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Our members are more knowledgeable, most having read the books more times than they have watched the movies.


My response was

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But evil is subjective. How can you judge how evil someone is? Without doubt, Melkor was the more powerful, but how can you measure their respective evil. From what I can see, both had pretty similar goals and lack of redeeming features, it's just that Melkor had more power to achieve his and leave his mark upon the world.

Melkor caused more misery to the world than Sauron, not because he was more evil, but because he was more powerful. Evil comes from within. It cannot be seen directly, only judged by the actions that occur as a result of it. Who is the more evil; a national leader who orders the genocide of another race, or the little guy who works in a paint shop by day, but is so torn with xenophobic predjudice that given the opportunity he would wipe out everyone who wasn't of his own race? In this example, the first man was probably responsible for millions of deaths, whereas the second was seen as being your "average Joe", who never harmed anyone. Which is the more evil, though? The second guy just did not have the opportunity/power to demonstrate his evil. In terms of his actions the two men do not even register on the scale, but in terms of evil intent, they are probably no different from one another.

Looking at evil in terms of what evil really is then; intent to do harm rather the scale of the harm it actually causes, is it that easy to dismissively say Melkor was far more evil than Sauron? In his acts we have more evidence, but that is a function of his greater power, rather than evidence of greater evil. Personally, I would say both were equally evil.
I looked into it, and JRRT never stated in one of his Letters that Melkor was irrational or the most evil. He merely refers to Melkor as a rebel, in Luciferian fashion.

If someone wants to dig into HOME, be my guest.
Tokien seems very fixed on the deeds of a person to find out the specific wanted quality. The deeds that melkor did were far more potent and numerous than Saurons deeds for instance. I bet nobody can add the deeds of sauron up to the deeds of melkor:
Entered arda and destroyed all of the Valars works particulaly the destruction of Illuin and ormal highest ever mountains, and therefore brought around a complete change in the structure of the world.
He then creates his fortresses in the iron mountains and with the coming of the children of Eru he captured some of the elves and tortured them into the orcs, thus being a direct mockery of the children of iluvatar.
He then has his second war with the valar which also changes the world, particulalrly middle-earth, the inland sea of ringol disappearing and various mountains chains and the forming of the dark/south land.
After long he is realeased from the halls of manwe and goes back over to south middle-earth and gains the allegiance of Ungoliant and smouts the two trees of light, and kills finwe the high king of the noldor and steals the precious silmarils.
He causes then unquite with the eldar of the undying realm and the ainur.
He then has five wars with the people of beleriand in which Fingolfin, high king of the noldor and feanor his brother are both killed. In the fifth battle then he has vertually captured Beleriand. He then has the war of wrath with the valar in which his defeat comes.
He also causes the terrible Dagor dagorath to arise.
There are amny more deeds that he does but i cannot recall them now.
If Melkor succeding in the deeds department does not satify you what would you say if i said 'Olorin was more good than manwe'? You would think that is rubbish i am sure which is true so why not can melkor be more evil than sauron? His altimate enemy is Eru followed by the Valar. Who is Saurons ultimate enemy? Gandalf? the elves of middle earth? neither of which are of a comparison.

Suppose i told you guys that if melkor had conquered in the war of wrath and take over Valinor itself and completlely rule arda, he would then turn round and destroy even his own servants and then have arda marred beyond repair. That is true and alot worse than Sauron plan to have dominion of middle-earth for he probably would not have taken aman for his fear of the valar.
Speaking of melkor, I have a sort of question.

What did Melkor want Middle-earth for? I mean, he would've lived a better life ruling peacefully with the other Valar and being Eru's good little boy. And I would be able to understand his motives if he wanted the splendour of Arda for himself, but apparently he didn't, because he was forever seeking to destroy Arda rather than preserve it for his own greed. So what was his plan in the beginning when he first made discord? Did he just simply want to defeat all the Valar and Elves, and then become unchallenged lord of the Ruins? That's not much fun, is it?

Then again, maybe Melkor was jealous of the Valar, and of Eru himself, because of the Flame Imperishable. but even jealousy can hardly make one want to destroy the world which they themselves live in. Melkor was clever and cunning. It's not like such a character to be so blind to the profits that could be made.

The same question goes for Sauron too. What did he want? A battered and barren Middle-Earth with nobody but himself still standing? I don't think even he would've enjoyed that lordship very much.

So what is it that triggers all these evils? It's not really greed and profit, what is EVIL?
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What did Melkor want Middle-earth for?

Not only Middle-earth. He wanted the entirety of Arda.

The reason for this, is answered in the Silmarillion :
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But he desired rather to subdue to his will both Elves and Men, envying the gifts with which Ilъvatar promised to endow them; and he wished himself to have subject and servants, and to be called Lord, and to be a master over other wills.

Apart from the above, he wanted to shape Arda according to his own thoughts and imagination. That's why he made war upon the Valar and marred their labours in the early days.

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So what was his plan in the beginning when he first made discord? Did he just simply want to defeat all the Valar and Elves, and then become unchallenged lord of the Ruins? That's not much fun, is it?

He wanted to be Lord of his own Beings - hence Orcs, Dragons, Trolls and the Men he subdued to his will. Elves, the Atani Houses of Haleth, Hador and Beren, and Dwarves would be utterly routed.

There is an important nuance here; Melkor started a discord, but he did not intend to do so:
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as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Ilъvatar, for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself.


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So what is it that triggers all these evils? It's not really greed and profit, what is EVIL?

Evil is the summum of selfishness. Not accepting the creation, and hence wishing to destroy it in order to recreate it according to one's own visions and wishes, and rule supreme over it.

That's what both Melkor and Sauron wanted. The difference between the two is perhaps that Sauron wanted to enslave the Peoples from the West, whilst Melkor would perhaps have routed them.
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He wanted to be Lord of his own Beings - hence Orcs, Dragons, Trolls and the Men he subdued to his will. Elves, the Atani Houses of Haleth, Hador and Beren, and Dwarves would be utterly routed.


Yes, he sure did, but I think in the end, if he had won, he would probably just do away with them. The Dark lords don't share power, and they wouldn't want anyone to challenge them. he'd probably kill his own gruesome creatures off after they'd given their services. Typical of the guy to do so.

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Evil is the summum of selfishness


It would be true if morgoth had wanted Arda utterly for himself. But sometimes the battle between him and the Valar can be viewed as something similar to the rivalry between two political parties of a country. Both sides want to make the world a "better place" according to each's opinions. And both have their own plans for the "good" of the world. I wouldn't be surprised if Morgoth thought he was doing the best for Arda when he made discord in the Music.
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It would be true if morgoth had wanted Arda utterly for himself.

Well, that he did.
Melkor wasn't interested in Arda as a place but rather as the container of elves and men and other creatures. He wanted to create beings of his own and sought the Imperishable Flame to do so but could not find it in the void. So the next best thing would be to rule the beings of Arda no matter what state the world was in physically.

From the Sil
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And he feigned, even to himself at first, that he desired to go thither and order all things for the good of the Children of Iluvatar, controlling the turmoils of the heat and the cold that had come to pass thorugh him. But he desired rather to subdue to his will both Elves and Men, envying the gifts with which Iluvatar promised to endow them; and he wished himself to have subjects and servants, and to be called Lord, and to be a master over other wills.

That has already been said and posted above.

But thank you for rubbing it in.
I was merely making the point that he desired dominion over all creatures rather than any interest in Arda as a world. My apologies if I agreed with you in any way.
Sorry Mir, I didn't really read your long long post above.... and thanks Vee for that explanation. I'm still always getting the impression that Morgoth is a Vader-like character...
How funkily different! Time will tell how I feel about it. To the matter(s) at hand:

I don't view Morgoth as a Vader like character, but as a Dark One type character, but a lot of that has to do with my personal beliefs and influences. I think he's hell bent on destruction throughout, due to the overriding (overwhelming and thus irrational?) jealousy alluded to earlier. However, canon seems to indicate he wanted slaves, not Void, but it's an open question whether the former tends to the latter if he wins.

Who's evilest (is that a word? I didn't think so. )

Well, if those folks want logic, put it to them this way: Melkor is the source of evil; it didn't exist until he created it in rebellion against Eru, and it was then (and only then) that he seduced Sauron to his cause. Literally everything Sauron knew about evil he learned from Melkor, because he was its source, and I don't think the student ever did or ever could surpass the teacher. It's not like arguing whether Celebrimbor is a better smith than Feanor, it's like arguing who was better at making Silmarils. It's a no brainer.

Now, someone explain to me why Sam and Rose have three times the votes as Elwe and Melian (and four times Earendil and Elwing) for "loveliest" couple. Oh, yeah, I'm back, at least for the moment. I have to start getting political soon, and that means a certain other forum.
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Now, someone explain to me why Sam and Rose have three times the votes as Elwe and Melian (and four times Earendil and Elwing) for "loveliest" couple. Oh, yeah, I'm back, at least for the moment. I have to start getting political soon, and that means a certain other forum.


Probably because more people voting have read LotR and not the Silmarillion, or have seen the films and not read the Silmarillion or simply not read the Silmarillion. So, here's a suggestion - everyone read the Silmarillion!

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Probably because more people voting have read LotR and not the Silmarillion, or have seen the films and not read the Silmarillion or simply not read the Silmarillion. So, here's a suggestion - everyone read the Silmarillion!

Well at least Beren & Lķthien are first!

In your face, LOTR movie lovers!

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Well, if those folks want logic, put it to them this way: Melkor is the source of evil; it didn't exist until he created it in rebellion against Eru, and it was then (and only then) that he seduced Sauron to his cause. Literally everything Sauron knew about evil he learned from Melkor, because he was its source

Actually, no, as from the Silmarillion we know that both Sauron and Saruman were originally servants of AulŽ :
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Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of AulŽ, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.
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Melkor is the source of evil; it didn't exist until he created it in rebellion against Eru,


Well I'm more one to believe that evil already existed before the Music. If there wasn't evil then there wouldn't have been good. So technically there were always two sides to any of the Ainur, it's just some of them could control their inner desires and turn them to better uses(Aule), and some, like Manwe, could even cleanse himself of them.

When Eru made the world, he pretty much left it to its own fate. I think he knew there was going to be pain and suffering on his new planet. How could there not be, when everyone he made had two sides to them? Eru sort of just threw his children onto the world and left them to see if they would turn to the dark or the light. I guess maybe to him it was just another world he created. He knew how it would end, and all he wanted to see was how the people would bring it about.
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I think he knew there was going to be pain and suffering on his new planet

I think he knew there could be pain and suffering, but if the Ainur made the right choises when they took part in the music, then there wouldn't be. At least not as much. Eru still let Melkor add his song to the world, though he gave him chance to change his mind. There wouldn't be free will if there wasn't something to choose from, but it is clear that Eru didn't like what Melkor chose.

There's an e-mail that comes to mind. It pretends to be from your employer, and it says something like "do you want a hoilday/pay rise/promotion this year?" There are two buttons, yes and no. But when you try to click the yes button, the button moves away, and it is impossible to click it. You have to click "no" even if that is not what you want, and the boss thanks you for your loyalty and dedication. You know it is only a joke, but it doesn't feel good to be given a false choise and it doesn't inspire loyalty at all.

Melkor chose not to do as Eru would have liked, but would a forced, "nice" song from Melkor be better? The world would still be tainted with hiddend hate and anger. Or if he was refused to sing at all? Would the others feel free to pour their hearts into the world or would they hold back? Wouldn't it be a crippled creation? Would Melkor wish to own the world or to destroy it?

As of pain and suffering. I think that in a way Eru is saying: "See now what free will created. War, murder, suffering, hunger. But also hope, love, endurance, creativity, music, art. You will all get to sing in the Second Song, the choise is yours what you add to it." In the first song the Ainur created a world for themselves and Eru's children, without fully knowing what they were making. In the second song, all will create a new world together.
If you believe Sauron is the most evil being then your best quote is thus,

"In my story I do not deal with absolute evil. I do not think there is such a thing since that is zero. I do not at any rate think any 'rationl being' is wholly evil. Satan fell. in my myth Morgoth fell before the creation of the phisical world. In my myth Sauron represents as near an approach to wholly evil as is possible". (Letter 183)

I have now some succesful rebuts flawing this idear and proving Melkor is the evilest,

1 - "He was aware, at any rate originally when he was capable of 'rational' thought, that he could notn annhialate them (Elves and men)". Morgoths ring
"This was sheer nihilism and nagation its ultimate object. Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness". (Ibid 396)

This shows indeed that Melkor was for at least part of his reign 'irrational' thus the quote is flawed as it says Sauron was as evil as 'rational' beings can be.

2 - "Melkor, originally the most powerful of the Valar, had become a rebel against his brethen and against Eru, and was the prime spirit of evil". (Ibid 530)

Right now with the present topic - What would melkor do if he had won? Here is the answer -

"Hence his endeaver always to break wills and subordinate them to or absorb them into his own will and being, before destroying their bodies. This was sheer negation and its one ultimate object: Morogth would no doubt, if he had been victorious, have ultimately destroyed even his own 'creatures', such as the orcs, when they had served his sole purpose in using them, the destruction of Elves and Men...Melkor could do nothing with arda, which was not from his own mind and was interwoven with the works and thoughts of others: even left alone he could only have gone raging on till all was levelled again into a formless chaos". Morgoths ring.

It then goes on to say that melkor would therefore be always defeated becuase the Valar could make something fair and beuatiful out of nothing. So he could never marr arda beyond their repair.
Morgoth was capable of more evil than Sauron, as Morgoth was a Vala and Sauron is a Maia. That is a fact.

Whether Morgoth's acts were more evil than Sauron's, is a matter of opinion. But by all means, continue sulking.
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So he could never marr arda beyond their repair.


But it does take an awful lot of time to heal a world, even for a Vala. I mean, to utterly root out "the seed of dissention" from your garden is easy, but to pull out all the poisonous weeds that have grown up and are multiplying every minute is quite a tiring job. And though he could never mar Arda beyond their repair, he could always make life miserable and difficult for them, couldn't he?

Actually, Melkor did mar Arda beyond the Valar's repair. For the evil that had dissipated from Melkor's fortress of Utumno (and from Melkor's essence himself) and not only entered Arda's essence, but also the hearts of every living being, could not be undone safe by breaking Arda and remake it -- and that the Valar could not do.

That is why the whole of Arda is Morgoth's Ring. To destroy that Ring, you'd have to cast Arda into the fires of Quasar Doom.
But logically, if everything could be "blackened" by Morgoth, then why is it so hard to "whiten" everything back again? Let beauty seep through the darkness and all that. Oh never mind. I know this doesn't work, but it's just wierd. Evil and good are like a one-way road. It only goes one way.

It is easier to destroy something, than to create something.

The line between evil and good isn't always clear in JRRT's works, though. Look at FŽanor and his sons, for instance. Or Maeglin and EŲl.
No. The point of the quote was that Melkor could NOT mar arda beyond repair. it would always be a world in potential for the Valar to re create.

I have provided textual evidence to show that Melkor was indeed the evilest so that subject is closed.
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I have provided textual evidence to show that Melkor was indeed the evilest so that subject is closed.

Yes, Your Highness.

Dost Thou deem us ignorants worthy to be informed when Thou wouldst consider opening the subject once more?
Or do we have to rebel to open the subject again, milord?

Litter litter
Fairy glitter
Sun will shine and
birds will twitter
But if you try
to shut a fairy up,
then sun will darken
and your days'll be bitter

Hahaha...just joking, I'm still your cute little fairy
Be nice, children. Wink Smilie Lord of All doesn't want to discuss anymore, but we still can. It is hard to say who was most evil of Sauron and Morgoth. Sauron had less power than Morgoth, naturally. That doesn't prove that he is less evil, but he can't do the same amount of harm. Maybe he is mostly there so the people of ME will be forced to take a stand against of for evil, and not just say "Morgoth is the Valars problem, let them deal with him, it's not really our problem."

Sauron may be a Mini-Me Morgoth, but that can make him even more thirsty for power and therefore more dangerous and evil. I can't make up my mind about this.
Would someone care to rebut the quote stating that Melkor was the 'prime spirit of evil'?
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2 - "Melkor, originally the most powerful of the Valar, had become a rebel against his brethen and against Eru, and was the prime spirit of evil".

This quote doesn't really prove much.
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prime ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prm)
adj.
1.First in excellence, quality, or value. See Usage Note at perfect.
2.First in degree or rank; chief. See Synonyms at chief.
3.First or early in time, order, or sequence; original.
4.Of the highest U.S. government grade of meat.
5.Mathematics. Of, relating to, or being a prime number.


"prime spirit of evil" doesn't have to mean that he is the most evil spirit. It could mean he is the leader and/or the most powerful of the evil sprits, or that he was the first evil. In my interpretation, Tolkien is saying that Morgoth was the first and original evil. And he was indeed the first spirit of evil.
Morgoth was the prime spirit of evil, and Sauron was his prime servant. But after Morgoth got thrown into the Void through the Door of Night, Sauron became the prime spirit of evil.

One can argue about who of the two did the most evil acts to Arda and Middle-earth. Morgoth created Orcs, Dragons, possibly Trolls too, and had a following of Balrogs, he destroyed the Two Trees, did some harm on the Children of Ilķvatar and was in the end responsible for the sinking of Beleriand.

Sauron created the first Uruk-hai, the Olog-hai, destroyed Ost-in-Edhil and conquered most of Eriador until the Numenorians rebutted him and was the leading force after the corruption of Ar-Ph‚razon which in the end was responsible for the sinking of Nķmenor and the removal of Valinor of the circles of the World.

In the end, Sauron had been a pest for the Children of Ilķvatar for 7,000 years (minus the years in which he regained his form), while Morgoth was only a pest for around 1,000-1,500 years (he was released soon before he destroyed the Two Trees).

I do think that the student may have surpassed the master. It was a bit embarassing of course that he got toppled a few times, but Morgoth didn't quite look good a few times either.

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Hahaha...just joking, I'm still your cute little fairy

Is that a song from that fairy from Legend?
This is how the real account of melkors deeds goes:

Became a direct rebel opposing Erus will in the void and afterwards.
Decended into arda and destroyed all there (Valar) works on the world.
Came back from the outer darkness and destroyed the two pillars of light, Illuin and ormal, highest ever mountains. Therefore he was responsible for the changing of the world in geagraphical terms (three seperate continents etc).
Managed to capture some of the newly arrived Elves and tortured them into Orcs, thus being a direct mockery of the children of Eru.
Corrupts Maiar to his will.
After being chained in the halls of mandos he is released and gains allegiance with Ungolinat. Goes back over to Valinor and smouts the two trees of light, fairest things in Valinor and theefore causes its darkness.
he cuases discontenet between the Eldar of Valinor.
Wages war with ll of Beleriand over the next couple of hundred years, in which he is finally almost victorious.
But becuase of Earendil he then is finally fallen and is cast into the void.

Sauron accomplishes the downfall of Numenor but this originally was Melkors doing for his will remeined inthe world and made the numenoreans hunger for the undying lands (which is why they then did not like the Valar).
He created the Nazgul
Created olog hai though the actual trolls were created by morgoth.
Was responsible for the death of many elves (but so was Morgoth).

Not much compered to Melkor.
Who were the main enemies of Sauron? the peoples of north western ME. Who were the main enemies of morgoth? The peoples of ME, the Valar themselves and Eru himself.

Also if Sauron was the most evil of all beings why did he not put 'Sauron is the most evil of all in my myth', instead of 'Sauron was most evil of rational beings'? Melkor was at least irrational for some of his reign so therefore this flaws the quote and therefore he is the most evil.
You know, LoA. If you really wish to convince us all that you are correct in your view, you could at least try to do some research on Sauron too. You redused him to six lines, probably to make his deeds sound small and unimortant, but I am also likely to believe that what you wrote is all you know about Sauron.
I wonder why it is so important to prove that Melkor was the "most evil", anyway. It is merely a matter of opinion.

But if it makes you keep quiet, LoA, we'll all gladly agree that Melkor is indeed the most evil!
Oh, I don't know. Elf Sticking Tounge Out Smilie I'm sort of leaning towards Ted Sandyman or Bill Ferny as leaders in the Most Evil Catagory. Elf With a Big Grin Smilie Of course they only become ellegible to win in this p*****g contest, because young Christopher snuck the last chapter into his daddy's manuscript. However, as their names don't appear, my argument doesn't hold any water either. Sad Smilie
Sauron did indeed do many other deeds during his reign but the ones i have listed are probably the only ones that can be compared to Morgoth and that is with a struggle.
I am not sure it's a simple as "Morgoth did this, while Sauron did that".

With Sauron being Morgoth's right hand, I am sure he was very much involved with training dragons and balrogs and orcs and other evil deeds. Commanding armies, taking cafe of thing while Morgoth was out destroying lamps and talking to spiders. He took over when Morgoth "retired", and no one seems to have questioned that authority. That can only mean that he had a very strong position already. He wasn't pure as snow when he took over, he continiued with the work his master had started and he had been very much a part of, and made it his.
Both guys were trying very hard, that is certain. Morgoth tried to be evil, but a little Elven King almost hacked off his foot, a huge spider almost strangled him and an Eagle scarred his. Not to mention, a little she-elf made his blood boil a bit.

Sauron had even more embarassing moments.

Really, this guys are taken way too seriously. I agree with Grondy : Bill Ferny was the real deal.
Hah! A little Elven king almost hacked his foot off? By little Elven King i assume you mean Fingolfin, one of the greatest Eldar kings and perhaps the greatest king of the Noldor.

You forgot to mention the time when Sauron was pinned down by huan the werewolf and got sent quaking back to morgoth.

What was Saurons ultimate goal? To have complete domination of ME.
What was morogths? To have complete domination over all arda, then to destroy it as much as he can alomng with his own servants.
i know which is more evil.

I would also like to point out that morogth could not be defeated by all of beleriand (twice as big as what it was in the third age) and eventually gained control of it. But Sauron could not even dominate the remnant that was left of Beleriand.
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You forgot to mention the time when Sauron was pinned down by huan the werewolf and got sent quaking back to morgoth.

Sauron did not return to Morgoth, for his shame was too big (although, what's wrong about losing to a woman? it always feeds my masochistic id). Instead, he fled to Taur-nu-Fuin. And who or what is Hķan the Werewolf? Hķan was the Hound of Valinor.

You need to get your facts straight when it comes to Sauron. Or develop another bias.
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Hah! A little Elven king almost hacked his foot off? By little Elven King i assume you mean Fingolfin, one of the greatest Eldar kings and perhaps the greatest king of the Noldor


Well, Fingolfin might've been impressive to the Children of iluvatar, but come on, compared to a Vala (in fact, the supposedly most powerful Vala) he was puny.

I do agree that all this who's evillest stuff is merely a matter of opinion. Tolkien's opinion was probably that Morgoth was the evillest, but we can have a lot of different ideas about this. It's been fun to see your evillest person in Arda. Bill Ferny??? Haha Grondy and Mir, I'd never have thought of it. You both could be easily eviller than old Ferny.
If you want to nit pick Mirovor why did not you not do it properly - hound of Orome.

Luthien i think said to huan when he was pinning sauron down that he should be 'sent quaking back to morgoth'. if you still don't believe me I will get the quote.

Yes he was quite insignificant compared to Morgoth but Sauron had his ring cut off by Isuildur, a man not the more powerful firstborn, even though he came from Numenor.
Now, now, Mirovor always nitpicks properly :
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To that chase went Huan the Hound of Valinor, and Mablung of the Heavy Hand, and Beleg Strongbow, and Beren Erchamion, and Thingol King of Doriath. They rode forth in the morning and passed over the River Esgalduin; but Lъthien remained behind at the gates of Menegroth. A dark shadow fell upon her and it seemed to her that the sun had sickened and turned black.

(from the Sil)

Lķthien said this to Sauron :
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'There everlastingly thy naked self shall endure the torment of his scorn, pierced by his eyes, unless thou yield to me the mastery of thy tower.'

(from the Sil)

Again, try getting your facts straight before posting.

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Yes he was quite insignificant compared to Morgoth but Sauron had his ring cut off by Isuildur, a man not the more powerful firstborn, even though he came from Numenor.

What does this even mean?
I still maintain, Lord of A bit, that you are confusing power with evil. In all the examples you use to compare Melkor's evil with Sauron's, you are just comparing deeds of relative strength. There is absolutely no denying that Morgoth was more powerful than Sauron, and had the ability to achieve more. That is not an indication of how evil either of them were though. Evil is subjective, and as such, cannot be measured in terms of deeds committed.

Until you can give me an argument that does not include just the comparison of relative power, you will not convince me that Melkor is the more "evil" of the pair.
In a power mode comparison rather than evilness: It took the rest of the Valar to haul Melkor back to Aman in chains; while it only took a group of Numenoreans to chain Sauron and haul his butt into captivity in Numenor. But as Val says, that doesn't prove anything about their evilness.
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