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Thread: Manwe & Morgoth

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Manwe and Morgoth started off pretty much the same. Both were pretty strong, maybe Morgoth a little more powerful than his brother, but still, both very powerful. And well, let's say both were filled with wonderful visions of how to govern the new world in front of them. And maybe Morgoth wasn't so different from Manwe in the beginning.

But anyways, here comes the question: why didn they turn out the way they did? Does it mean that Morgoth had some influence that Manwe did not have? I remember something in some book that said Manwe could not understand Morgoth because he was too "pure" in heart to comprehend evil. But still, in the begninning, both had about the same influences from their fellow Valar and the big boss Eru.So does that mean that Morgoth had been born evil? I know Tolkien meant fro him to become the symbol of evil, but I don't know if he meant him to be born evil. I don't think anyone is born evil, even Satan wasn't. So what does this mean?
Basically, Manwë was an altruist, while Melkor was not. That is the reason their paths diverted.

Melkor wanted everything for his own and rule and create on his own, while Manwë was willing to share.

After the Valar descended to Arda, Melkor didn't accept his fellow Valar's interpretation of Eru's Music when they laboured in Arda, and sabotaged their works as he wanted to make Arda according to his own interpretation. He fell ŕ la Lucifer when he didn't accept Eru's original vision and put in stuff from his own mind and later on he acted accordingly, trying to destroy his fellow Valar's vision (hence he is called 'evil').

If Eru had made a secondary Arda for Melkor, there would never have been any trouble and evil would not have existed.
But the point Tolkien is making is that Eru proposed a Plan for his creation. All the Ainur accepted that plan except Melkor. Melkor decided that he knew better than Eru about how things ought to be done, so he began his own discord in the music. He wanted things his own way, not Eru's way. Even though in his own right Melkor was very great, this is like a gnat saying to a whale that he knows better how to swim in the sea. Eru showed that he was not thwarted in his design by taking Melkor's discord and weaving it back into his theme. This should have been warning enough to Melkor, but instead he persisted in pursuing his own will over Eru's. This is his mistake, and of course, Tolkien is just retelling the fall of the angels.

No, Melkor would not have been satisfied if Eru had created another Arda all for him. That would have meant that Eru had created it in Eru's way, and that was obviously not good enough for Melkor who knew so much better than the creator. No, Eru would not waste time on that, and did not depart from his Plan.
It is not mentioned in the Ainulindalë whether Melkor accepted Eru's plan or not. It is merely mentioned that Melkor sought to increase his own role in the Music :
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. But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Ilúvatar, for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself.


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No, Melkor would not have been satisfied if Eru had created another Arda all for him.

Eru didn't create Arda, the Valar did. Eru merely gave them a dark, unshaped form which the Valar had to turn into Arda.
Melkor desperately searched for the flame imperishable, and he began to create thoughts of his own. He wanted people to call him lord and rule over all. He grew impatient with the empitiness of the Void and wished Eru to do something with it. Therefore when he beheld the vision of Arda, a space within the void closed and concealed from the rest, it served both his wishes, to have something in the void that was not empty and also to have a kingdom of his own.
Now manwe did not develop these thoughts for power of domination so did not show the eagerness Melkor did when have decended into arda.
I'm not sure Melkor wished Eru to do anything with the void. He was impatient of its emptiness but his desire was to create and rule. The creation by Eru of the world was almost a compromise for Melkor because he could not locate the Imperishable Flame.

Being alone in the void and cut off from his brethren caused him to think thoughts unlike theirs and so he took his chance when it came to use those thoughts in the Music. However, since he was in the void searching for that which he should not and could not have shows he had some 'not so good' intentions before being apart from the others.
Yes I agree.
Morgoth possessed some traits of evil before even he grew apart from the Ainur, so although he could not be called evil then he certainly had the potential.
He grew impatient with the emptiness of the Void and wanted more than it had to offer, he wished there were a set ingdom within the void that he could dominate and have beings under his control. In a way therefore he did wish Eru to do something with it as he knew it was in no ones else's power.
This all reminds me of an interesting comparison in the HoME of Morgoth and Aule. Both were cunning and clever, but Aule was the good boy and Morgoth the fallen angel. But now I'm thinking, didn't Aule sort of want the Flame Imperishable too? He made the Dwarves (or tried to), didn't he? Only his purposes were more innocent than Melkor's.
Aulë made the Dwarves (or rather, the first seven fathers) not to rule over them, but because he could not wait any longer for the Firstborn to arrive. That's all. When Eru made it clear to him that he was only able to create mindless puppets, Aulë repented and wanted to smite them with his hammer. But at that point, Eru had already given the Dwarves life himself.

Aulë never longed for the Flame Imperishable, let alone sought for it.
I think Aule viewed Dwarves as a creation, and maybe he views life itself as a wondrous creation. Somehow I don't think he would just sit there and do nothing when there's such a beautiful thing to be made/sought. Of course, he was a good little boy so he wouldn't dream of doing anything Eru didn't want but still, he had the thought of it. Typical craftsman!

Speaking of craftsmen, why do all the evil guys seem to be craftsmen?
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Speaking of craftsmen, why do all the evil guys seem to be craftsmen?

Well, Bill Ferny wasn't a craftsman. Nor were the Valaraukar and the Dragons.
Excluding the Ferny guy, and as for the other creatures. They were sortta crafted to be evil, weren't they?
Dragons perhaps, but the Valaraukar were just Maiar who took on a certain form.

Orcs were not crafted to be evil, but deformed as a mockery towards the Children of Ilúvatar.
Yeah, well the Maiar could be like Morgy, right? and Orcs were sort of "shaped up" by Morgoth to be used for his evil purposes.
Not really. He did not create them for his evil purposes, although they eventually were used for his evil, he created them originally as a mockery to the Children of Ilúvatar.

It was merely an act of pure hate and malevolence, torturing them captured Quendi for centuries, both physically and mentally, and deforming them in the ghastly form of the Orc.
Well, isn't the mockery itself an evil?
No, it was just that nobody understood Morgoth's sense of humour.
And I suppose you do? I was right, you are Morgy.
Morgoth was just a lonely fellow, looking for beings of his own. Just give the Vala a break.
Hats off everyone. Let the Supreme Evil be at peace within the Void.
Shhhh... Don't go around calling him the Supreme Evil, or Lord of All will begin quoting you.
Yes, "I read on this other website that 'Morgoth was the Supreme Evil'." Orc Grinning Smilie
Whoops. My bad. But I did so want to get on Mir's nerves, so agreeing with LoA for a moment there seemed perfectly reasonable.
I so saw through that...
I knew you would. But I had to explain myself, see, for the benefit of our other respectable members.

And here's a bit of advice:
Don't try to sound like a girl. I already know you're male...
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Don't try to sound like a girl.

*high pitched voice* Okay.
you know, Morgoth/Melkor was just a big bully. with crazy powers. and an army. ya...
Well, getting back on track now, you haven't answered my question. Isn't mockery itself an evil?
i wouldnt call mockery an evil. its just an extreme lack of talent that leads someone to mock. it is definitely undesirable in anyone but mockery cannot be classified in to something EVIL. if i were to chop ur hands off and laugh id be evil but if i mocked u i would just be looked down upon .. see the difference???? and yeah the point made was a very valid one .. all evil buggers do turn out to be mainly craftsmen in the beggining .. therefore see Sauron and Saruman. both were Maiar of Aule. i guess this has to do with a craftsmans urge to build things according to his wish .. so that if he is constrained to a certain set of rules he yearns all the more to break those rules. anyway .. its just that craftsmen have a higher probability to become evil than others. Its the most that can be said because evil can be born anywhere. I guess the best example of that would be Melkor himself .. one of the highest and mightiest of the Ainur and he became evil .. well what can one say except *tut tut tut*

Finrod.
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if i were to chop ur hands off and laugh id be evil but if i mocked u i would just be looked down upon .. see the difference????

Now you are just comparing the consequence of two actions. The consequence of the first action is indeed much less grave than the first one, but the intent of both actions is not necessarily so.

If one mocks another person in order to consciously degrade or hurt that person, then to me that is an evil act.
Well .. i see that a council member has chastised me. buti guess i have to add this point at this juncture .. if we just look at all actions and their consequences in black & white .. ie either good or evil, then of course Miruvor is right .. mockery is evil. but like everything else we have to look at the many shades of grey that are there. not every action and its consequence can be classified as good or evil .. which was the point i was making with my example. if my first instance was black viz totally evil then mockery would be a grey shade of evil. therefore just simply bad.

getting back to cloveys question "isnt mockery itslef an evil?" well .. hmmm .. of course its bad .. very bad, but not downright evil. of course in this context, Melkor did a lot of things that were bad .. in fact rotten but only his greatest achievements (bad of course) could be classified as truly evil. his mockery of elves thus is evil but only insofar as spoiling a thing very beautiful like elves. his intention of creating beings under his dominion but his inability to create them is in fact sort of pitiable in so great a being. one can actually pity him on this count of just wanting someone to rule after. that he would'nt have been a very good ruler is a secondary question.

well im going on, as is my usuall habit .. im sure miruvor has somthinmg to say about my views .. so lets see it and ill see u all later.

Finrod
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in fact rotten but only his greatest achievements (bad of course) could be classified as truly evil. his mockery of elves thus is evil but only insofar as spoiling a thing very beautiful like elves.


Well, his mockery of Elves (aka turning Elves into Orcs) was one of his greatest achievements, wasn't it? I mean, without that, where would we get all the Orcs of the later ages from? And where would Morgoth get his great armies from? Balrogs and dragons and wolves don't make an army of numbers.

But that's just a little problem I found. The big one is the first sentence I quoted from Finrod. Every little thing Morgoth did that made someone or something miserable should be considered evil. And truly evil. Just like we agreed on in the other thread, evil cannot be determined by the power of a deed, but by the amount of evil in one's mind (and that's hard to measure). So I'd say that all Morgoth's bad actions are evil because they all came of an evil mind and they were all subject to an evil purpose.

Another thing, too. His mockery of Elves was indeed spoiling a beautiful thing, but you would do wrong to belittle it. Because everything Morgoth did was, in a sense, destroying beauty. That was probably his goal. To destroy the beautiful world because it was not turning out according to his own sense of beauty.

And btw, thanks for the nickname!
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I mean, without that, where would we get all the Orcs of the later ages from?

Probably through the Dark Portal.
ok .. fine .. i accept defeat. those were evil actions. i think ill not go again into my rant on shades of grey and all that. agreed Morgoth was totally evil from head to toe .. or rather hewed foot .. whatever. there is this one thing id like to ask all u knowledgeable members out there and please excuse me from deviating from the subject of this thread ..

i see a lot of people online .. how do i chat with them ad how do u people quote from previosu messages in the thread and where are all the smileys ??? Sad Smilie id really like to chat with some people when im online as i find very few people around me who show an interest in tolkien. their knowledge is restricted to the movies alas. please help coz i just joined and i dont know the ins and outs of this site.

and clovey .. you're welcome. *winks*

Finrod.
ps : hurray .. at least i found a couple of smileys .. Smile Smilie. but id like to know of all those clowns and demons and stuff please that Grondmaster uses. Wink Smilie
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agreed Morgoth was totally evil from head to toe ..

Someone had to be. Otherwise, not much interesting stuff would've been going on in Middle-earth and surroundings.

Thank you, Melkor.
you guys do relize that mockery is in its best state humor and in its worse, pervertedness? so it depends. Melkor making a mockery of the other Vala and Eru and junk was pretty bad but if i jus make a mockery of my my math teacher its like, detention and if i make a mockery of my history teacher he laughs w/ us? so it depends.
What if you make a mockery of your gym teacher? You get five hundred sit-ups?
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how do i chat with them ad how do u people quote from previosu messages in the thread and where are all the smileys ???

I replied to your email about how to chat.

Above the input box is a row of icons, to quote click on the comic book speech balloon, copy and paste the text after it, then click on the balloon once again to add the closing the tag end.

The smilie link is broken and has a low priority for fixing; however, a bunch of us have posted those we know in the thread Smilies!!!!
I don't think mocking is necessarily evil. I think it matters a great deal WHAT the mocker decides to mock.

Now there are a great many good and noble and beautiful things one ought to respect and love and admire and respect and be gentle towards and all that jazz. A mocker of such things has made an evil decision, no? But to mock or laugh at evil itself is, perhaps, not such a bad thing.

A totally different question is not whether or not Melkor's mockery was evil, but whether or not it was wise. It seems to me that mocking is like throwing yourself against something, as if to say "see how (stupid/flimsy/silly/unworthy of respect) this thing is?" And, of course, if the thing IS in fact flimsy, it will give way. But if it's not, OR if it's resting on something which isn't, then of course the mocker comes away from the encounter all the worse for the wear. Mocking something of the latter nature is quite unwise, in this sense. Ultimately, whatever Melkor mocked was resting on Illuvitar's original theme, and as such, Melkor ended up throwing himself against Illuvitar. Elves may have been crushed in the middle, but in the end, Melkor was not the irresistable force and Illuvitar's theme was the immovable object, so to speak.
The object of Melkor's mockery were the Elves, the beings of beauty and First Children of Iluvatar. Of course this doesn't prove Melkor's mockery was evil, although it most certainly proves it's unwise. But if you also look at the way he mocked them then you'd really get the evilness of it. Physically turning them into ugly Orcs is only part of it. The real evil in this deed was the fact that Morgoth twisted their minds, and made them go against their own kind. If Elf slaying Elf is a crime, then Morgoth had no doubt meant for every Elf to sin by slaying Orcs. But that's fortunately only what Morgoth meant. I don't think Manwe or Eru punished the Elves for killing Orcs.
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If Elf slaying Elf is a crime, then Morgoth had no doubt meant for every Elf to sin by slaying Orcs.

I think instead Melkor had in mind for every Orc to slay every Elf.
That too, of course. But by making Elves kill their own kind he would paint more blood on their hands. And that'd hurt more than any knife thrust the Orcs could give an Elf. But that's just Morgoth's thnking, everyone else saw it quite fit to slay as many Orcs as possible and no one blamed the Elves. No one even suggested the Orcs were their "kin".
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No one even suggested the Orcs were their "kin".

And perhaps they even weren't, considering how much JRRT changed his theories. What's written in the Sil is merely the opinion of the Elven loremasters who put the whole history of Arda together.
Wasn't the whole thing put together by the Elven loremasters? They're what we're going to have to believe.
Um...

My post got eaten, and I'm not gonna try to reconstruct it all, for which ya'll may be grateful (verbose? ME? Never. )

On the subject of Manwe and Morgoths relative strenghts and similarities, we have little in canon on Morgoths origins. His first appearance is on page two of the Ainulindale, where we hear about his impatient search for the Flame Imperishable, but this is told as a past event, even within that narrative, the explanation for the strange new thoughts "unlike those of his brethren" he introduced to the theme of Iluvatar (and it IS Iluvatars theme, whomever plays it; he made Arda, so there. :P) We have little else besides a few paragraphs in the Valaquenta: On the Enemies, where it's stated he's "coeval" with Manwe. This makes them of an age, but nothing more, and the Ainulindale states Morgoth shared in all the attributes of the other Valar, something it doesn't say of Manwe. Last but not least, the same section states:

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He began with desire of Light, but when he could not possess it for himself alone, he descended through fire and wrath into a great burning, down into Darkness.


So it would seem Morgoth began as at least neutral, and more likely actively good; the religious parallel seems best to me (naturally. )

On the subject of "evil" vs. "bad" in mockery of good: seems a fine distinction, and one only tenable if we define evil to be monolithic: not possessed of negative attributes but CONSISTING of them, enitrely. Fortunately, Morgoth and his actions still qualify; even if the Law of Unintended Consequences incidentally produces good (e.g. Erus discussion of ice and cloud with Ulmo and Manwe) this is despite him, and more properly ascribed to Eru (note: this does NOT make Eru responsible for Morgoths evil, it only means the evil he ALLOWS Morgoth to perpetrate is ever turned back to Erus ends.)

And I don't think the Orcs were intended as a mockery of Elves, but of Iluvatar himself. Gotta follow your parallels....
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This makes them of an age, but nothing more, and the Ainulindale states Morgoth shared in all the attributes of the other Valar, something it doesn't say of Manwe.

That's perhaps the problem; Melkor sharing in all attributes of the Valar, hence possessing a tad of every part of Eru's mind, makes him some kind of "mini-Eru". No wonder he wanted to create stuff of his own ("quasi-Eru"/Quasimorgo) and/or played the boss over this brethren. The other Valar were just concentrating on their own part.

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(and it IS Iluvatars theme, whomever plays it; he made Arda, so there. :P)

It is a version, an adaptation of his theme; Ilúvatar made Eä, but not Arda. That were the Valar.

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This makes them of an age, but nothing more, and the Ainulindale states Morgoth shared in all the attributes of the other Valar, something it doesn't say of Manwe

Coming to think of it, this is quite unlogical. Since Manwë & Melkor are supposed to be brothers, they must originate from the same part of Ilúvatar mind, hence Manwë must also have shares in all the Valar's attributes - but not in the same amount as Melkor, who had more power.
ARGGGH! I've gotten used to what I'm responding to being conveniently quoted in said response. Anyway...

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This makes them of an age, but nothing more, and the Ainulindale states Morgoth shared in all the attributes of the other Valar, something it doesn't say of Manwe.


That's perhaps the problem; Melkor sharing in all attributes of the Valar, hence possessing a tad of every part of Eru's mind, makes him some kind of "mini-Eru". No wonder he wanted to create stuff of his own ("quasi-Eru"/Quasimorgo) and/or played the boss over this brethren. The other Valar were just concentrating on their own part.


Well, given the reiligous influence, I think that's EXACTLY what happened. And I think that's a unique quality of Morgoth, too (i.e. one NOT shared by Manwe. )

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(and it IS Iluvatars theme, whomever plays it; he made Arda, so there. :P)


It is a version, an adaptation of his theme; Ilúvatar made Eä, but not Arda. That were the Valar.


Meh. He made the Valar, he wrote the Music and, when Morgoth introduced his discord, Eru set it aright. The Valar played the themes and did the grunt work, but he's the builder. The Valar were the means of creation, and certainly played a role, but there's only one creator. And Arda isn't part of Ea now? ;-)

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This makes them of an age, but nothing more, and the Ainulindale states Morgoth shared in all the attributes of the other Valar, something it doesn't say of Manwe.


Coming to think of it, this is quite unlogical. Since Manwë & Melkor are supposed to be brothers, they must originate from the same part of Ilúvatar mind, hence Manwë must also have shares in all the Valar's attributes - but not in the same amount as Melkor, who had more power.


I tend to look at it more as all the Valar were brethren. This is shaky, as Eru refers to Manwe as Ulmos "friend, whom thou lovest" but the alternative is difficult, too, since Manwe appears to be very much an elemental being (best evidenced by the passage with the preceding quote. ) So I'm going with mine 'cos it's mine, at least until you make me look foolish with a shelf full of quotes.
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Meh. He made the Valar, he wrote the Music and, when Morgoth introduced his discord, Eru set it aright. The Valar played the themes and did the grunt work, but he's the builder. The Valar were the means of creation, and certainly played a role, but there's only one creator. And Arda isn't part of Ea now? ;-)

Eru built not Arda, the Valar did. Eru only provided the sketchbook.

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I tend to look at it more as all the Valar were brethren. This is shaky, as Eru refers to Manwe as Ulmos "friend, whom thou lovest" but the alternative is difficult, too, since Manwe appears to be very much an elemental being (best evidenced by the passage with the preceding quote. ) So I'm going with mine 'cos it's mine, at least until you make me look foolish with a shelf full of quotes.

Brethren, certainly, as they're all of the same race.

As I understood, being siblings among the Valar means those Valar originated from the same part of Ilúvatar's mind :

- Vána & Yavanna : both aligned to nature, plants, forests,...
- Oromë & Nessa : both have a fancy for hunting
- Nienna, Námo & Irmo : the "Fëanturi", all deal with matters of the mind and spirit
- Manwë & Melkor : both "mini-Erus" (?)
Yeah, I guess that's really the only reasonable way to read it, espcially when we start talking about Tulkas marrying Oromes (but not his own, we hope!) sister. It just seems weird to me to have two Valar whose distinctive characteristics aren't, well, distinctive. Eru planning ahead, maybe?
Tolkien finally decides that Melkor was far more powerful than Manwe in his origins. Tolkien writes in the "Myths Transformed" section of HoME X:

"Melkor must be made far more powerful in original nature (cf. 'Finrod and Andreth'). The greatest power under Eru (sc. the greatest created power). (He was to make/ devise / begin; Manwë (a little less great) was to improve, carry out, complete.)
Later, he must not be able to be controlled or 'chained' by all the Valar combined. Note that in the early age of Arda he was alone able to drive the Valar out of Middle-earth into retreat."

Melkor's power in a sense diminishes through time in that he spreads most of it throughout the matter of Middle-earth and into the hands of his servants. This means that at any given moment, he has less power available to himself than originally, and is why he is able to be defeated by Eonwe in the War of the Wrath.

Also, Tolkien calls Melkor's creation of the Orcs in Mockery of the Children of Evil his "Greatest Sins" (Letter 153).
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