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I have read the sil a few times but few days ago my friends were talking about elves and all that and the subject was soon half-elves. they asked me how many half-elves were in the tolkien books and i could not answer. my book collection is not availible to me right now so could u give me a hand. Big Smile Smilie
The descendants of Eärendil & Elwing were the Peredhil, who were given the choice to which race to be counted amongst - Elros chose the race of Men, hence making all his descendants automatically Men too; his brother Elrond chose the race of Elves, which still gave his descendants the choice to be counted amongst Men.

Eärendil's and Elwing's lineage was unclear too, until they themselves chose to be counted amongst Elves after they had made it to Valinor.
If by 'half-Elf' you mean that one parent was human and the other an Elf, then there are the following Half-Elves:

Elrond
Elros
Elwing and her two brothers I can't recall the names of
Earendil

And I think that's it. The rest are all either a quarter Elf, or three quarters Elf or more complicated in lineage. Oh and I suppose you can argue Luthien a Half-Elf since her mother was technically a Maia and not an Elf, but she's generall accepted as an Elf.
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And I think that's it. The rest are all either a quarter Elf, or three quarters Elf or more complicated in lineage. Oh and I suppose you can argue Luthien a Half-Elf since her mother was technically a Maia and not an Elf, but she's generall accepted as an Elf.

No problem, Melian took up the burden of the flesh and gave birth to Lúthien in an Elven form, so Lúthien is Elvish, but with some 'godlike' attributes.

This is comparable to Greek mythology, where most heroes were demigods : Herakles, Perseus, Bellerophon, Theseus, Achilles, Aeneas... even Klytaimnestra and Helen of Troy were demigods (daughters of Leda & the swan=Zeus).

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And I think that's it.

One could make a stand for the descendants of Imrâzor & Mithrellas. The problem is that JRRT himself wasn't clear in this matter, and contradicted himself (I refer to some discussion I had with Westerly wizard in one or another Dior thread somewhere... I cannot be bothered to look up its location).
If lady Luthien had 'godlike' attributes, what were they, t his is so fascinating. And if that is so how terribly grievous that she died in the manner of men.
Remember that Lúthien escaped 'immortality'. Tales about Mortals might contain the release from death... tales about Immortals might contain the release from deathlessness, that, as time wears on, even the Powers will envy.

In this light grief at the loss of Lúthien may be mitigated.
Some may argue that men on M-E are immortal, however, their time on M-E is still limited because they are known as the 'guests' to the Elves when their time comes up they travel to some distant halls to await for the 2nd Music.
Men and Elves continue to exist after 'ultimate death', or at least this is the trust (estel) they both put in God. But the 'experiment' is between Elves and Men living in the World: one enduring in life until the World's End (including the possibility of 'death' and reincarnation, generally), the other living relatively briefly in it.
Considering what Tolkien himself believed, it is beyond any doubt that both the Quendi and Atani (and Dwarven) souls are immortal in his universe.

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If lady Luthien had 'godlike' attributes, what were they, t his is so fascinating.

She shared some of those attributes which Men would call "magic"; all Elves of course shared this quality but far lesser compared to Lúthien since she was the daughter of a Maia who had taken up an Elven form.

Indeed she was an adept enchantress - notice how flowers started growing in Neldoreth on the soil where she danced, how she wove herself a cloak of shadows to escape Hírilorn, how she laid bare the dungeons of the Tower of Tol-in-Gaurhoth after she had sent Sauron (!) quaking back to Old Grumpy, how she healed Beren of bad wounds, how she subdued Carcharoth who was guarding the entrance to Angband and last but not least how she enchanted Morgoth himself in his lair.

Compared to Lúthien, Arwen Evenstar is nothing more than an immortal farm girl, or tavern maid.
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Considering what Tolkien himself believed, it is beyond any doubt that both the Quendi and Atani (and Dwarven) souls are immortal in his universe.


Agreed! And I thought you might be interested in part of Carl Hostetter's commentary after seeing film three (if you haven't seen it before of course)...

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3) and the worst of all, Gandalf's description of "death" -- Gandalf encourages Pippin with a vision of what Pippin can expect when he dies: the description of the white shore and the far green country under a swift sunrise lifted from Frodo's arrival at Tol Eressëa -- which of
course is _not_ the afterlife. It is hard to imagine a more fundamental lie about Tolkien's novel and fictive metaphysics than this. The very point of Elves in contrast to Men is that, in the pre-Christian, fallen world of Middle-earth, and unlike the Elves, _no one_ knows what fate
awaits Men after their deaths: not Men, not Gandalf, not even the Valar, nor anyone other than Eru Himself. And yet the faithful Men at least choose still to fight, to risk their lives in right causes simply _because_ they are right, without promise of reward or recompense in
this life or in a next life, and without expectation of victory. This is the very essence of the heroic spirit that Tolkien's novel, and most of his Middle-earth writings, is a long mediation on (in varying degrees, to be sure, but always there in the fabric of his fiction). It is bad enough that Boyens and Jackson have robbed most of Tolkien's characters of their faith, dignity, and sense of moral purpose -- even Gandalf is unscathed in this latest movie, what with all the beatings he administers -- but this is the worst lie of all.' Carl Hostetter

I do not remember what Mr Hostetter describes Gandalf said to Pippin in the movie. I guess it just got lost amidst the plethora of other absurd additions and renditions of Tolkien's magnum opus.
About Galin's quote:

In the film Gandalf decribes to Pipppin about the Blessed realm which he will see after he dies. This is NOT a lie! Although only Elves will dwell in Valinor and the Halls of Mandos after they die Men "Go through those halls and thence out of the Doors of night" to where none know. So Men do travel through those halls and do see the land of the Valar when they die but they then go onwards.

To prove it see this:

"For the spirit of Beren at her bidding tarried in the halls of Mandos, unwilling to leave the world, until Lúthien came to say her last farewell upon the dim shores of the Outer Sea, whence Men that die set out never to return. But the spirit of Lúthien fell down into darkness, and at the last it fled, and her body lay like a flower that is suddenly cut off and lies for a while unwithered on the grass."

As you can see, Men die, travel to the Halls of Mandos, pass through those halls and then go on towards the Outer Sea. Beren tarried in the Halls to say farewell to Luthian.

So in all respects Gandalf in the film was right. Pippin, being a strain of Men, would go to the Blessed realm and see White shores and a green country and then pass through the Hall of Mandos and then beyond. Whoever made this quote needs to check out there facts first.

Carl Hostetter is one of the top Tolkien scholars out there and I think you might be missing his point in any case (I would now be interested in what Ian M. actually says in the film about this).

His exact quote (to my memory) was thus:

Pippin: I didn't think it would end this way.
Gandalf: End? No the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path. One which we all must take. The grey rain curtain of this world folds back and all turns to silver glass (this part is said in the book as well), Then you see it...
Pippin: See what gandalf?
Gandalf: White shores and beyond. A far green country with a swift sunrise.
Pippin: Well thats not so bad.
Gandalf: No it isn't...

I quote the book:

"But either in his dreams or out of them, he could not tell which, Frodo heard a sweet singing running in his mind; a song that seemed to come like a pale light behind a grey rain-curtain, and growing stronger to turn the veil all to glass and silver, until at last it was rolled back, and a far green country opened before him under a swift sunrise." - Frodo's dream in the House of Bombadil

"And the ship went out into the High Sea and passed on into the West, until at last on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a far green country under a swift sunrise." - The journey into the West

The only difference is Frodo and bilbo were allowed to see this place whilst they were alive, whilst Men could only do so when dead, before they left The Little Kingdom.

And just becuase this Carl is a top loremaster it doesn't mean he is Tolkien. I guarantee he is wrong in this instance. Its a very small point I made but clearly he overlooked Men going through the Halls of Mandos before they leave the world. He may have simply thought they leave it without going to Valinor.

And I also quote:

"...and unlike the Elves, no one knows what fate awaits Men after their deaths: not Men, not Gandalf, not even the Valar, nor anyone other than Eru Himself." - Carl Hostetter

This also is incorrect. I quote:

"Mandos under Ilúvatar alone save Manwë knows whither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea." The Sil

Both Manwe and Mandos know of the fate of Men besides Eru. This quote also says that Men do indeed spend time in the 'Halls of recellection' before they pass out of the circles of the World.

And also more proof to show that Men go to the Halls of Mandos:

"Some say that they too go to the halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves..." The Sil
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"...and unlike the Elves, no one knows what fate awaits Men after their deaths: not Men, not Gandalf, not even the Valar, nor anyone other than Eru Himself." - Carl Hostetter

This also is incorrect. I quote:

"Mandos under Ilúvatar alone save Manwë knows whither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea." The Sil

They may know where they go, but I don't think this is what Mr Hostetter meant with their 'fate'. I think Mr Hosetter was referring to what happens to the spirits after have joined the One in His Halls.
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And just becuase this Carl is a top loremaster it doesn't mean he is Tolkien. I guarantee he is wrong in this instance.

Are you Tolkien? Granted, no loremaster has as much authority as Tolkien, but I highly doubt any person today, safe Christopher Tolkien, has as much authority on Tolkien related works than this person you so respectfully refer to as "this Calr"! Mr Hostetter has, in fact, been enlisted by Christopher Tolkien himself, hence I deem some respect here is not unwelcome:

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Carl F. Hostetter (born 1965) is a computer scientist at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, and a key figure of the Elvish Linguistic Fellowship. He is the author of numerous articles on Tolkienian linguistics, and the editor of two journals on the subject, Vinyar Tengwar (print) and Tengwestië (online). Hostetter has also contributed to various mailing-lists dedicated to Tolkien's languages, including Tolklang and Elfling, and founded two others, Lambengolmor in 2002 and Elfling-d. Together with Christopher Gilson, Arden R. Smith, Bill Welden, and Patrick H. Wynne (called by some the "Elfconners"), he has been engaged by Christopher Tolkien in the ordering, editing, and publishing of Tolkien's writings concerning his invented languages, which have been published as Parma Eldalamberon numbers 11 through 16 (and continuing) and in Vinyar Tengwar.

Together with Verlyn Flieger, he is the editor of Tolkien's Legendarium: Essays on The History of Middle Earth (Greenwood Press, 2000).
(from a Wikipedia article)

Granted, the Sil mentions that some say that Men's spirits pass to the Halls of Mandos after death, but it's highly unlikely they pass to there whilst soaring across the sea, across Tol Eresseä, the Calcirya et al, having an aureola over their heads, wearing a white robe and playing a harp.

I think they end up there immediately via transcendental paths, similar to how Gandalf was called to Eru, but instead called by Mandos.

It could even be that the most virtuous did not even pass to Mandos but were immediately called by Eru. Perhaps only the souls of Men who still had some "beef" with Middle-earth, had to spend some time in Mandos; in case of Beren, this would be because of Lúthien. This would also be the case for Ar-Phârazon and other sinners.
I have no doubt that Carl knows his stuff and is exceedingly knowledgable but we know that even Tolkien has contradicted himself on rare occasion so I cannot see why Carl cannot do so even more.

Carl says: "Not Men, Not Gandalf, Not even the Valar, nor anyone except Eru knows what happens to men after there deaths".
The Sil says: "Mandos alone under Manwe knows what happens to Men after there time in the Halls of recollection".

Clearly if Men go to the Halls of Mandos then all the Valar do know what happens to Men after they die. But Manwe and Mandos know what happens to them when they leave the Halls. Either way at least 2 of the Valar know what befalls Men after they die (whether you mean death as in being slain, or in leaving the world).

It is mere speculation about your theory of 'appearing' in the Halls of Mandos. Elves for example are summoned to it and do not merely 'appear' there. They can refuse the summons if they wish. I see know reason why Men would just suddenly find themselves in the Halls of Mandos after they have been slain. They would travel there as the spirits of the Elves do on the Straight Road and they would look upon the Land of the Valar.
I have had contact with Mr Hostetter about this subject via e-mail.

My mail:
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Hi Mr Hostetter,

I am a Council Member of the website www.planet-tolkien.com (my member name is virumor there), and in one of the discussions of our discussion board a member has posted an excerpt of a part of a review you apparently wrote about the ROTK movie (you can view this discussion thread here : http://www.planet-tolkien.com/board/cat/14/thread/3400/0).

One of our other members, though, then began attacking what you wrote in your absence; considering you're one of the world's leading Tolkien scholars, it would be a real honour if you could give me or our members some explanation on what you wrote about ROTK?


Reply:
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Dear Mr. *********,

I think "Virumor" fairly aptly replies to "Lord of All" on my
behalf:* Frodo's living journey to Valinor is _not_ the general fate
of Men, as "Lord of All's" own quote from _The Simarillion_ shows.
The departed spirits of Men come _to the Halls of Mandos_, to "silent
halls beside the Outer Seas" far West of the bright shores of
Valinor, and after a time go thence beyond into a fate unknown to the
Elves or even to the Valar (generally). There is no indication
whatsoever that they come to the bright shores of Valinor or spend
any time in those regions.

As for the knowledge of the fate of Men beyond the Halls of Mandos
held by Mandos and Manwe: Since I was hastily writing a brief review
of a movie for an Internet newsgroup, not a treatise on the
metaphysics of Middle-earth, I would think I could be excused for not
specifying that two of the Valar did know at least something of the
_proximate_ fate of Men beyond Mandos (though it doesn't say they
know their ultimate fate). It is still true that the Valar
_generally_ do not know the fate of Men. Moreover, by "Lord of All's"
own quote, since _only_ Mandos and Manwe know _anything_ about this
proximate fate, it is a necessary implication that _Gandalf_ knew
_nothing_ about it, which makes the scene in the film even more of a
distortion.

* Except for appealing to my supposed "authority"! The only authority
is what Tolkien wrote.

Cheers,


Carl
Well that does not really contradict me does it? He admits he can be excused for forgetting about Manwe and Mandos, at least partly knowing the fates of man and he has sought of 'met me half way' in regards to the White shores and beyond' theory.

Also sometimes Men who were mariners could have got caught on the Straight Road and they also see the White shores and Green country:

"And tales and rumours arose along the shores of the sea concerning mariners and men forlorn upon the water who, by some fate or grace or favour of the Valar, had entered in upon the Straight Way and seen the face of the world sink below them, and so had come to the lamplit quays of Avallónë, or verily to the last beaches on the margin of Aman, and there had looked upon the White Mountain, dreadful and beautiful, before they died."
Again I think you might be missing the bigger picture here Lord of All.

Does the film say anything about the Halls of Mandos? If what you have posted is an accurate dialog then what is naturally taken away from that by people who have not read any of Tolkien's works (it's not a prerequisite to watching the movie), and people who are very familiar with them?

There's no explanation (one would guess) that distinguishes that Gandalf is not 'really' talking about the afterlife with respect to the ultimate fate of Men after they leave the Circles of the World (in any case).

And the fact that the description of Frodo's journey simply appears in the book is neither here nor there in my opinion, as the point is it has been used in a way that Tolkien did not.
My point is that Men go to the Halls of Mandos. They would travel there the same way as the spirits of the Elves do - on the Straight Road from Middle-earth to the blessed realm. Therefore I would say that they see the land of the Valar before they leave the circles of the world (unless someone provides proof to the countrary). This all happens after they die.
Thus what Gandalf said in the film was true, I quote again:

Gandalf: "End? No the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path. One which we all must take. The grey rain curtain of this world folds back and all turns to silver glass (this part is said in the book as well), Then you see it...White shores and Beyond."
Elven ships travel along the Straight Road, that's also what the book excerpt was referring to. It is not known how spirits were gathered in the Halls of Mandos, but I gather it would happen via transcendental ways, similar to how Gandalf was called back by Eru.

The idea of spirits floating across the Straight Road to the Undying Lands, is quite quaint, to say the least, and not in line with what Tolkien believed.
You are forgetting that Elves can refuse to go to Mandos. Irmo summons them, and the Elves can choose to go or to stay as a spirit in the phisical world, yet unable to effect it. Thus the theory or suddenly appearing in Mandos is quite flawed.
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My point is that Men go to the Halls of Mandos.


To anyone watching the film the actor playing Gandalf is referring to death in general here, not a journey to Mandos, not something one might 'see' or experience on the way before leaving the Circles of the World (according to your interpretation that is). In the film 'Gandalf' appears to be basically trying to comfort Pippin with a description of 'heaven', or in any case, this is easily what one might take away from that dialog even if the makers of the film should claim this was not intended.

All you seem to be doing is trying to claim that technically it isn't a distortion according to your interpretation of something, while seemingly ignoring the fact that the film-Gandalf doesn't actually get technical about it. Again, does the film itself say anything about the Halls of Mandos? Is it explained that even Gandalf doesn't know what death ultimately holds for Men, or that the description is something Pippin's spirit will only 'see' or experience on the way to his ultimate fate (again according to your interpretation)?

'Technically' doesn't cut it here in my opinion. The distortion is there, a needless manipulation in the first place.
Yet you don't provide much logic or analysis (or proof for that matter) in coming to this conclusion.

Bottom line:

Gandalf happens to tell Pippin in the film that after his death he will eventually see White Shores and a Far Green country - as indicated in the Book where this extract is clearly got from - it is Valinor.
We know that Men go to the Halls of Mandos after they die and would arrive there the same way as do Elves - on the Straight Road as I have already explained.
Now it is not hard to put two and two together - Gandalf in the film is clearly right in saying that Pippin will see Valinor after his death becuase this is pretty much what Tolkien left us to conclude in the books.

And the film-Gandalf is hardly about to get technical with the Halls of Mandos is he? This clip was just done to show how wise Gandalf was and as a scene of comfort for Pippin and a scene of wonder for the audience - not a scene for a lore lecture about the death of men.

Its up to you if you want to deny the facts but its pretty clear here that he is right.
LoA:
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Irmo summons them, and the Elves can choose to go or to stay as a spirit in the phisical world, yet unable to effect it. Thus the theory or suddenly appearing in Mandos is quite flawed.

Námo, not Irmo. Furthermore, there's nothing mentioned in the Silmarillion about Námo, better known as Mandos, "summoning" spirits. As I understood from the Silmarillion, Elven spirits pass to the Halls of Mandos, should they perish. The details of how this occurs, is not mentioned.

Please get your facts straight before partaking in "serious" discussions.

Galin:
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To anyone watching the film the actor playing Gandalf is referring to death in general here, not a journey to Mandos, not something one might 'see' or experience on the way before leaving the Circles of the World (according to your interpretation that is). In the film 'Gandalf' appears to be basically trying to comfort Pippin with a description of 'heaven', or in any case, this is easily what one might take away from that dialog even if the makers of the film should claim this was not intended.

Agreed.
Oops, I got mixed up with my Namo and Irmo. I will never here the end of that now will I?

And about Mandos summoning spirits - I suggest reading Morgoth's Ring. Its pretty good on that subject and gives very good accounts of the death of Elves.
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Yet you don't provide much logic or analysis (or proof for that matter) in coming to this conclusion.


You provided proof by telling me what the lines are from the film. I did not doubt Mr. Hostetter but I had yet to see the actual lines anyway.

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And the film-Gandalf is hardly about to get technical with the Halls of Mandos is he? This clip was just done to show how wise Gandalf was and as a scene of comfort for Pippin and a scene of wonder for the audience - not a scene for a lore lecture about the death of men.


It makes me 'wonder' at least Elf With a Big Grin Smilie

Never said film-Gandalf would or should get technical. Doesn't change what he did say however.

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And about Mandos summoning spirits - I suggest reading Morgoth's Ring. Its pretty good on that subject and gives very good accounts of the death of Elves.


I've read Morgoth's Ring and don't remember anything about Mortal spirits floating over to stay in Tol Eressea, or arriving at the shores of the Undying Lands (in the manner you suggest) before they pass to their unknown destination.

'Here I am only concerned with Death as part of the nature, physical and spiritual, of Man, and with hope without guarantees.' JRRT Letters
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To prove it see this:

"For the spirit of Beren at her bidding tarried in the halls of Mandos, unwilling to leave the world, until Lúthien came to say her last farewell upon the dim shores of the Outer Sea, whence Men that die set out never to return. But the spirit of Lúthien fell down into darkness, and at the last it fled, and her body lay like a flower that is suddenly cut off and lies for a while unwithered on the grass."


Is it possible, for this writer (and a very busy one) to get the exact reference to this? I see many nice things cited, but not where in HOME (chapter or appendices names are so much appreciated!) or in the Silm. I'd so would love that! Pretty please with a cherry on top? I could use it so well for a story that I am writing.

I also recall that someone mentioned to me that Beren was waiting for Luthien in a chamber in Mandos (a canon reference as well). So perhaps you guys know this as well.

As for the fate, doom ect ect of men, I gladly would point out that Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth and the tale of Adanel.. both are such gems to read and ponder upon. At the end of Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth in Moroth's Ring (HOME 10), I found this and I would like to share that with you:

"One further passage in 'Reincarnation of Elves' should be mentioned. In a sort of aside from the course of his thoughts, moving more rapidly (even) than his pen, my father remarked that 'the exact nature of existence in Aman or Eressea after their "removal" must be dubious and unexplained', as must the question of 'how "mortals" could go there at all'. On this he observed that Eru had 'long before' committed the Dead of mortals also to Mandos; cf. QS $86 (V.247): 'What befell their spirits after death the Elves know not. Some say that they too go to the halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves; and Mandos under Iluvatar alone save Manwe knows whither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Western Sea. The sojourn of Frodo (he went on) in Eressea - then on to Mandos? - was only an extended form of this. Frodo would eventually leave the world (desiring to do so). So that the sailing in ship was equivalent to death.'
With this may be contrasted what he wrote at the end of his account of The Lord of the Rings in his letter to Milton Waldman of 1951 (a passage omitted in Letters but printed in IX.132): To Bilbo and Frodo the special grace is granted to go with the Elves they loved - an Arthurian ending, in which it is, of course, not made explicit whether this is an 'allegory' of death, or a mode of healing and restoration leading to a return.
In his letter to Naomi Mitchison of September 1954 (Letters no.154), however, he said:
... the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' - of free will, and leave the world. (In this setting the return of Arthur would be quite impossible, a vain imagining.)
And much later, in a draft letter of 1963 (Letters no.246), he wrote: Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him - if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil. "



In the Silmarillion, Beren waits for Lúthien in the Halls of Mandos, and both are ultimately allowed to return to Middle-earth as mortals after Lúthien's lament before Mandos.

The earlier quote given here from HOME where Lúthien gives her last farewell to Beren, is not applicable in a Silmarillion thread, since in HOME Beren is an Elf and in the Silmarillion he is a Man.

There is no final word or truth on the death of Men/Elves, since all material comes from HOME or the Silmarillion (which itself is constructed/extracted from HOME), and HOME is nothing more but a collection of most ideas Tolkien had whilst writing about his universe, which he did his entire life; hence it is unknown which ideas Tolkien meant to be final and which others he rejected.

In HOME, a lot of cases can be found where Tolkien contradicted himself or made 180° turns in viewpoints (e.g. the case of Elven rebirth). Hence one can only speculate, and what one chooses to believe is mostly up to taste.

In any case, nothing in HOME or the Silmarillion should strictly be accepted as "fact" since JRRT himself did not publish it.

But since this is a Silmarillion thread, all HOME related material should go to the HOME section. This is in light of a similar discussion in another thread, where people too were mixing HOME with the Silmarillion.
Sorry Vir, I just thoyght that it was called 'The silmarillion' forum to discuss things in the Silmarillion, not to exclude evidence from all other books.

Anyway this is clearly a matter for opinion.
My point was that in Morgoth's Ring it says about how Elves are summoned to Mandos and can refuse, and stay in Middle-earth if they wish. Thus they would not simply appear in Mandos and would travel there on the Straight Road as spirits. This is likely how Men arrive in those Halls also and thus proving that what Gandalf said in the film to be, atleast, mostly right.

But still if you wish to believe men tele-transport to the halls of Mandos then please do.

This quote:

"For the spirit of Beren at her bidding tarried in the halls of Mandos, unwilling to leave the world, until Lúthien came to say her last farewell upon the dim shores of the Outer Sea, whence Men that die set out never to return. But the spirit of Lúthien fell down into darkness, and at the last it fled, and her body lay like a flower that is suddenly cut off and lies for a while unwithered on the grass."

Is from the Silmarillion, Of Beren and Luthien.
You fail to understand that HOME does not contain any "evidence", just ideas Tolkien had at various stages during his lifetime whilst writing about his universe. It is unknown which ideas in HOME Tolkien finally accepted, and which ideas he rejected.

In this light, one cannot simply take something from HOME, apply it on the Silmarillion and present it as "evidence". If one does this, one merely speculates, instead of presenting an objective truth.

HOME is merely a collection of ideas, a testimony of the tremendous imaginative work of Tolkien throughout his life, but nothing more in se. The Silmarillion is a coherent extraction of HOME by his son, who believed this extraction would represent the final vision of Tolkien's Middle-earth.

Christopher Tolkien did not put other HOME excerpts into the Silmarillion for nothing - hence material from those two works should not be mixed. Leave that to Christopher Tolkien if he is willing to publish another refurbished edition of the Silmarillion.

Anyway, if more HOME related material appears here, I shall make a new thread in the HOME section of the forum and move it yonder.
I have not quoted one thing from HOME, I have only recommended looking in it.

And if the entirety of your and Galin's argument rests on a detailed extract from Morgoth's Ring being untrustworthy then thats a pretty feeble argument.
It merely says what happens to the Spirit of Elves after there Bodies perish. It is not included in the Silmarillion becuase its a long extract and is quite beside the general storyline of the Silmarillion. Also it is not disputed in any other book.
Your so called 'evidence' is only evidence that Tolkien had many ideas. It does by no means 'prove' that this is what Tolkien had chosen as the final truth.

Saying that HOME has many interesting ideas and stories is fine, but if you want to discuss what HOME says about death or whatever, then make a thread in the HOME section. It is that simple.
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In the Silmarillion, Beren waits for Lúthien in the Halls of Mandos, and both are ultimately allowed to return to Middle-earth as mortals after Lúthien's lament before Mandos.


okay, wew, I knew I read it somewhere, but didn't save the quote. Still it helps to have chapters names nearby.

As for Silm vs Home... Christophers hand is so much in it that many, including Tolkien scholars like Martinez see it as semi-canon. Knowing both works quite intimately, I have to agree with them, still I use both works a lot in my writing. It's hard to say where Christopher changed things to his vision and where his dad is speaking, even more so Christopher admitted that himself. I am curious how the History of the Hobbit (done by a complete different person) will turn out. But the citation I purposely used is a mix of all, including Tolkien's letters which are his own words and visions, especially regarding Frodo which the whole discussion was about. So it isn't necessarily all HOME, but I keep my mouth shut.
The only one seemingly turning this into a HOME discussion is Vir.

I have merely stated that Elves go to Mandos as spirits on the Straight Road if they choose to. This is stated in Morgoth's Ring. And even if you wish to push that aside its still a more logical theory than tele-transportation.

Lets not forget people that, as Galin and I have stated in another thread - The Silmarillion all comes from HOME.
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Lord of All posted: And if the entirety of your and Galin's argument rests on a detailed extract from Morgoth's Ring being untrustworthy then thats a pretty feeble argument.


Erm, it was you who brought up Morgoth's Ring, not me. That's not my 'entire' argument, and I'm not saying the text itself is untrustworthy (more below). I'm agreeing with Mr. Hostetter and Virumor (it seems) that film-Gandalf's dialog is an unnecessary distortion (reasons already stated by Carl Hostetter in his commentary). I'll add...

'So Elrond and Galadriel depart (...) Gandalf was returning, his labour and errand finished, to his home, the land of the Valar.' (the very next paragraph reads)

'The passage over Sea is not Death. The 'mythology' is Elf-centered. According to it there was at first an actual Earthly Paradise, home and realm of the Valar, as a physical part of the earth.' JRRT Letters

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Lord of All posted: My point was that in Morgoth's Ring it says about how Elves are summoned to Mandos and can refuse, and stay in Middle-earth if they wish. Thus they would not simply appear in Mandos and would travel there on the Straight Road as spirits.


It does not necessarily follow that simply because an Elven fea can refuse Mandos it would not simply appear in Mandos if it did not refuse.

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Lord of All posted: This is likely how Men arrive in those Halls also and thus proving that what Gandalf said in the film to be, at least, mostly right.


Conjecture based upon conjecture, since you move to mortal spirits here, simply asserting that something is 'likely' based upon earlier conjecture about Elven fear. And here I note you say film-Gandalf is now only '... at least, mostly right' where before you stated that what film-Gandalf said 'was true'.

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Virumor posted: HOME is merely a collection of ideas, a testimony of the tremendous imaginative work of Tolkien throughout his life, but nothing more in se. The Silmarillion is a coherent extraction of HOME by his son, who believed this extraction would represent the final vision of Tolkien's Middle-earth.


I would rather you had asked Mr. Hostetter about this Smile Smilie
Ok firstly about Elves in Mandos - are you saying an Elven spirit appears in Mandos once its seperated from its body and then can choose to refuse the summons and go back to middle-earth? Very Unlikely.

Secondly I fail to see what the quotes you provided actually prove.

Thirdly I say the film Gandalf was 'At least mostly right' becuase there are a few fuzzy speculative areas about this whole matter but certainly no-where near enough proof to say he was incorrect.

The way I see it there is enough 'speculative proof' to show that Gandalf was right, whereas there is no proof at all for the contrary.
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Ok firstly about Elves in Mandos - are you saying an Elven spirit appears in Mandos once its seperated from its body and then can choose to refuse the summons and go back to middle-earth?


No, I'm not saying that.

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Secondly I fail to see what the quotes you provided actually prove.


That the passage over Sea is not death. Yet the film lifts a description of Frodo's passage over Sea and has Gandalf use it to comfort Pippin about death.

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The way I see it there is enough 'speculative proof' to show that Gandalf was right, whereas there is no proof at all for the contrary.


You're trying to claim that film-Gandalf wasn't really talking about death in general in the first place, but rather was speaking about something that (according to you) is experienced after one dies but before one leaves the Circles of the World.

Thus you're submitting the idea that what film-Gandalf said could 'technically' be said to be true if your interpretation about mortal spirits is correct, and if one ignores the reasonable conclusion taken from the film's dialog -- that Gandalf has used a description concerning the passage Over Sea to comfort Pippin about death in general.

No sale Smile Smilie
No need to make things complicated Galin. Its pretty simple what I am saying.

Gandalf tells Pippin that when he dies he will see Valinor. As Pippin is mortal and we know mortals go to the Halls of Mandos and would probably (E.g. - not conclusive but still probable) travel there the same way as do the spirits of Elves - on the Straight Road - then Pippin would see Valinor before going to Mandos and thence leave the World.

Simple as.
Call it simple or complicated, it hardly matters. You continue to mix conjecture into your argument, based on the simple idea that the Elven fea can refuse Mandos, to try to make what film-Gandalf said be 'technically' correct in some way.

As if indeed the dialog in the film is to be taken in such a 'technical light' in the first place... especially considering not everyone who watches the film need read, or need have read, a single word of Tolkien's work.
Glad your coming around to the idear Galin. Wink Smilie
Not even close Smile Smilie

Actually I just skimmed over Of Death And The Severance Of Fea And Hroa in Morgoth's Ring and it says there...

'As soon as they were disbodied they were summoned to leave the places of their life and death and go to the 'Halls of Waiting': Mandos, in the realm of the Valar. If they obeyed this summons different opportunities lay before them. The length of time that in Waiting was partly by the will of Námo the judge, lord of Mandos, partly at their own will.' JRRT MR

And in Of Re-birth And Other Dooms Of Those That Go To Mandos...

'The fea is single, and in the last impregnable. It cannot be brought to Mandos. It is summoned; and the summons proceeds from just authority, and is imperative; yet it may be refused.'

Nothing that I can find in these two texts about the fea of an Elf floating over the Sea as if it were traveling similar to riding in a ship and approaching the Shores of the Undying Lands.

Not that it matters much anyway, considering the general nature of the dialog in the film.
The dialog in the film says that Pippin in the film will see White shores and Beyond after he dies. Nothing technical it just implicates what Tolkien himself has left us to conclude. Of course what Gandalf said in the film was not meant to get technical it was just a passing remark that happens to have some bearin in Tolkien's myth.

Your quotes prove my own point.

Elves are summoned to Mandos when they die. If they can refuse the summons and remain in Middle-earth this would imply that they do not simply automatically appear in Mandos. It implies that they can accept the summons and go to Mandos. It doesn't imply that they accpet the summons and suddenly appear there. Otherwise if they refused the summons do you think Mandos would just say 'Ok I will send you back then'?

All we have actual proof for is that Elves can choose to go to Mandos. We do not have any proof that they arrive there in some supernatural way. Therefore we MUST assume they get there the good ole' fasion way - by travelling there. Got proof that they arrive there in some other more unusual way then show it.

So if we have established that much (and I **** Moderator Smilie [Mind your language! Virumor] Moderator Smiliewell hope so by now) then we can also assume the most likely outcome is that the spirits of the Men arrive there in the same way. Therefore proving my, and Gandalf's point.

The problem with some Tolkie fans is that they want to belive that EVERY bit of the films is absolute rubbish. However myself am able to look at things from more than one slight angle and was pleasantly surprised to see that something accurate was done in the films in relation to Tolkien's myth. Big Smile Smilie
Moderator Smilie This argument has gone on more than long enough already. It doesn't belong in this thread which is about Half-elves.

If you so please to continue, please do this in an appropriate thread, preferably in the forum section dedicated to the movies.That'll save us moderators from having to move the off-topic posts from this thread. Thank you. Moderator Smilie

Meanwhilst, back on topic, which is Half-elves : Elwing was really hot.
Amen to both the arguments in Virumor's above post, especally the former; Moderator Smilie though the latter is no understatement. Elf With a Big Grin Smilie
I've continued this (new) topic in the film forum, if anyone else has an opinion or wishes to continue.