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oh yeah! Well it`s just like Legolas getting all those arrows out of nowhere. Big Smile Smilie Just one of those P.J things probably.
Just movie errors.

In books, Legolamb picks up his arrows again after he shoots some Orc, he doesn't have an infinite number of arrows like in the films.

In books, it isn't mentioned if Saruman takes Gandalf's staff and does that anti-gravity trick on him. It's just mentioned that Gandalf is taken away and imprisoned.
So did the book explain that his staff was lost in the fight or was this all PJ as well? I guess my question is how true to the book is all this?

Yes, I am kicking myself now that I didn't read these when I was younger. I don't know how many times I was told about how great these books were and just never read them. I picked up The Hobbit now just to get a head start on what will hopefully come next to the movies.




[Edited on 2/9/2003 by Zagnut]
in the books, it isn't even mentioned Gandalf loses his staff. He probably does, of course but he seems to get his staff back magically or he just gets a new staff : firstly when he's imprisoned by Saruman, second when he defeats the Balrog, dies and comes back and is taken away by Gwaihir.

I think it's plausible he loses his staff at least twice in the books, and gets a new staff. But how? that isn't mentioned. In the movies, we see Gandalf lose his staff but it's not shown how he gets it back, too. It's just a detail, too.

Staffs R Us, just outside of Bree.

I know it's just a detail but I was curious if it was mentioned in the books at all.

Thanks.
Okay, these answers are not necessarily Tolkien based:

When Saruman took Gandalf's staff, it was downstairs and there was magical barrier between, that Gandalf couldn't penetrate with his mind or body. However, once on Gwaihir's back and flying below the staff's level of the Tower of Orthanc, he was able to use his mind to call the staff to him, similar to Harry Potter and his broomstick vs. the dragon in HP and the Goblet of Fire.

After the fight on the mountain top, when Gandalf died and was sent back to try again, he wasn't strong enough to both carry his staff and sword, and to hold on to the eagle's back, so Eru via Manw, made sure the staff and 'Glamdring' had been transported to Lothlrien and were awaiting Gandalf's arrival when Gwaihir brought him there. Thus when Galadriel garbed him in white, she also was able to present him with his staff and sword.

And that boys and girls is the story of, How the Gandalf Got His Staff'. Teacher Smilie
I dont know Grondy....I mean....he gets a different staff too.....its not the same oak staff he had as the grey....because that one broke on the bridge of Khazd-Dm Teacher Smilie and in my opinion, Gwaihir got a new staff for him from Manw and this staff lets him practice more of his powers since he bumped Saruman off the top of their order.....but how he gets his oak staff back from Orthanc if he even loses it here....I havent figured that out yet...
What is so important about the accursed staff anyways? Is it only an instrument to channel his power or the source of his power. Does it matter if Gandalf lost his staff? Is he any weaker because of it? Who gives a @#$% about the staff anyways, as long as Gandalf kicks a$$, right?
*Just a few off topic questions and comments I was wondering while reading:

*Zagnut, great observation!!

*Grondmaster, are you a fan of HP much, because you mention him and his books alot??

*Virumor whats up with the Legolamb nickname?? Where did you get that from??

*MadWannabe, good questions, that sorry but I can't answer! Big Smile Smilie
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What is so important about the accursed staff anyways? Is it only an instrument to channel his power or the source of his power.


You answered your own question. In the book Gandalf uses his staff in all the ocations that he uses magic. On Caradhras, with the Balrog, In the mines for light.

And remember that Gandalf broke Saruman's staff. Taking away his magic powers.
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And remember that Gandalf broke Saruman's staff. Taking away his magic powers.

Wrong. Saruman still had his voice. The snake still had one poisoned tooth.
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*Grondmaster, are you a fan of HP much, because you mention him and his books alot??
Yes I'm a HP fan and a H2G2 (Douglas Adams) fan, but no where nearly as big as a LotR fan.

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And remember that Gandalf broke Saruman's staff. Taking away his magic powers.
Wrong. Saruman still had his voice. The snake still had one poisoned tooth.
I don't consider Saruman's charismatic voice a magic power. But I do consider the breaking of his staff a symbol of the severance of his ties to the Valar and his place in the nature of things. He just became a mortal man loosing all his magic powers, but leaving him with the innate power of his voice. IMHO.
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He just became a mortal man loosing all his magic powers, but leaving him with the innate power of his voice.

Nope his magic powers aren't all located in his staff - their staff is just their bond with the order of the Istari. And his voice is a magic power - look at the chapter Voice of Saruman for instance.

The 'magic' is in their Maian soul. And Saruman is a Maia in the body of a mortal man. In, Middle-Earth, he has always been a mortal man but once Grima cutthroated him, and his mortal body died, his Maian soul was freed again.
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The 'magic' is in their Maian soul. And Saruman is a Maia in the body of a mortal man. In, Middle-Earth, he has always been a mortal man but once Grima cutthroated him, and his mortal body died,


But remember that Gandlaf said that no weapon could harm himself beause he was the White wizard. Saruman had his power removed, thus Grima's knife could hurt him.

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his Maian soul was freed again


And a wind from the West blew it into nothing.
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And a wind from the West blew it into nothing

Souls cannot be destroyed. Sauron's spirit also wasn't destroyed after Gollum accidentally stumbled into his doom : he only became a powerless spirit. Saruman's spirit either went into the Void or to the halls of Mandos.

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But remember that Gandlaf said that no weapon could harm himself beause he was the White wizard. Saruman had his power removed, thus Grima's knife could hurt him.

I am pretty sure if someone would put a spear into Gandalf the White while the latter was asleep, Gandalf the White would be dead.
Aragorn, Legolamb and Gimli couldn't harm him with their weapons because one spell form Gandalf the White made them unable to use their weapons.
It wasn't so that Gandalf suddenly became untouchable for weapons : he was still a Maian spirit in a human form. And this human body could be destroyed.
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Aragorn, Legolamb and Gimli couldn't harm him with their weapons because one spell form Gandalf the White made them unable to use their weapons.


But it rather pointless for him to say that their weapons couldn't harm him after the spell was lifted, if he was talking about the spell in the first place. Of course their weapons were useless if he put a spell on them! There would be no need for him to point out such an obvious fact.
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But it rather pointless for him to say that their weapons couldn't harm him after the spell was lifted, if he was talking about the spell in the first place. Of course their weapons were useless if he put a spell on them! There would be no need for him to point out such an obvious fact.

Why was it so pointless? he just tried to explain to them how he was changed when he became the White Wizard. And he said it to them because they totally had no clue that they were under a spell.
But he never said anything about the spell in the first place. he said..."Indeed my friends, none of you has any weapon that could hurt me."...I think that he was talking about how his body had changed as well as his power. I don't think that he had a normal, mortal, human body.
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. I don't think that he had a normal, mortal, human body.
I've always been of the opinion that Gandalf the White was in actual fact Olorin in Maiar form. Although he appears to still wear a body, I've always seen it as being more of a facade than a real body. At any rate, it does not appear to be the same body he used as Gandalf the Grey. He describes himself as feeling refreshed, revitalised or something. His body no longer seems to be a burden like it originally was.

I've always looked at the Istari as being Maiar sent to Middle Earth to accomplish a mission. That mission was to unite the Free People by understanding them. To better understand them, they were given bodies so that they could experience the same emotions, urges and fears of normal people. Their bodies also prevented them running amok with their super-powers.

By the time of the War, Gandalf had sufficiently proved himself and so could be trusted to be sent back for a limited period with his full unlimited strength. Gandalf the White, therefore, is Olorin without any limitations. As he actually states, there are no weapons that will actually harm him now.
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I've always been of the opinion that Gandalf the White was in actual fact Olorin in Maiar form.

So Gandalf the White is able to break Saruman's staff then because the latter's powers are lessened because he is still in a mortal body? Or because the latter already spoiled a lot of his power by trying to hold off Sauron's will in the Palantir (which didn't work)?

For me, when Gandalf return he seems to be 'upgraded' and changed, it seems that his power is increased so he is no longer nr 2 but nr 1 of the Istari.
When Gandalf tries to explain what happened when he 'died', he says something like 'every second seemed years to me', etc so i think in some way Gandalf came in contact with Eru (it wasn't the halls of Mandos for sure) and it was Eru who restored and upgraded his power like a battery.

This is my opinion.

[Edited on 11/12/2003 by virumor]
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By the time of the War, Gandalf had sufficiently proved himself and so could be trusted to be sent back for a limited period with his full unlimited strength. Gandalf the White, therefore, is Olorin without any limitations. As he actually states, there are no weapons that will actually harm him now.


That's a good way to put it, I agree with you, Val. Gandalf the White is more angelic than Gandalf the Gray.

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So Gandalf the White is able to break Saruman's staff then because the latter's powers are lessened because he is still in a mortal body? Or because the latter already spoiled a lot of his power by trying to hold off Sauron's will in the Palantir (which didn't work)?


I think that the Valar (or Eru) withdrew any support that Saruman had and gave it to Gandalf when he took the White mantel.
I know that'll be a stupid question. (Maybe the stupidest ever on PT history)
Since Gandalf is invulnerable to weapons, why doesn't he just attack the armies of the orcs only by himself? I mean he cannot be harmed right? So why use Gondor armies while they have some kind of "Terminator"?
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Since Gandalf is invulnerable to weapons, why doesn't he just attack the armies of the orcs only by himself? I mean he cannot be harmed right? So why use Gondor armies while they have some kind of "Terminator"?
Everything has it's Achilles Heel. The Witchking of Angmar believed himself to be invulnerable to Men. One little Hobbit with a toothpick and a woman soon took care of him, however. No doubt Sauron thought himself invulnerable too at the battle of the Last Alliance, until Elendil and Gil-galad defeated him.

I think even if he were unharmed by their weapons, sheer numbers could still bring Gandalf down if he were foolish enough to attack an army alone. Besides, he had been forbidden by the Valar from openly using his abilities. His task was to unite the Free Peoples of Middle Earth, not to be a one man slaying machine.
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not to be a one man slaying machine.


Would be a cool thing to see though!
Gandalf isn't a warrior. If Manw wanted to wipe out an entire army, he would've send Enw or even Tulkas.