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But wasn´t Théoden supposed to be more like 60? I mean 50 isn´t old!
I would put Theodens's age at around 70, give or take a few years.
Theoden was born in T.A 2948 and by the time of the WoTR he was 70 yrs old. He had begun to be 'inticed' in Wormtounge's spell for three years prior to the WoTJ, when he began to enter old age quicker then most of the Rohhirim,due to sickness

IMO, in Pellenor Theoden was as powerful as any man before him-he kicked ***.


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IMO, in Pellenor Theoden was as powerful as any man before him-he kicked ***.


I have to agree with Findekano! Theoden is one of my favorite characters, and I would have followed him into battle anyday!

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I actually really enjoyed the whole Thoeden being under Saruman's spell, and being unusually old.


I agree also Anilorak! I thought that was a cool touch, and one of the few changes that P.J. made that didn't make me want to pull my hair out.
Elf Smilie
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I thought that was a cool touch, and one of the few changes that P.J. made that didn't make me want to pull my hair out.
Yes as Saruman was a wizard, sorcerer or whatever, the movie going audience needed a little more magic out of him other than that rediculous game of 'toss the Gandalf' in the first movie. Thus his spell over King Theoiden. With out a visible display or showing the results of his magic, Saruman would just have appeared as your ordinary power hungry despot trying to feather his nest at the expense of his neighbors. Very Mad Smilie IMHO Paranoid Smilie
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that rediculous game of 'toss the Gandalf' in the first movie.


OMG Grondy, that's too funny! Big Laugh Smilie
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Yes as Saruman was a wizard, sorcerer or whatever, the movie going audience needed a little more magic out of him other than that rediculous game of 'toss the Gandalf' in the first movie.

Hehe, that is funny Big Smile Smilie
Btw, I was wondering, if PJ put the 'exorcism of Theoden' scene just to please the audience who wanted to see Saruman's magic, why didn't he do something at the end when the Ents attacked Isengard? Saruman just stood there looking shocked/confused/clueless instead of using his powers to try and stop the Ents. He didn't even hold his staff, so I'm not sure what that means. I thought his staff will be broken by Gandalf later (in ROTK most likely).

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I thought his staff will be broken by Gandalf later (in ROTK most likely).

It better, as this passage is one of my favorites in the whole book:
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He raised his hand, and spoke in a clear cold voice. "Saruman, your staff is broken". There was a crack, and the staff split asunder in Saruman's hand, and the head of it fell down at Gandalf's feet. "Go!" said Gandalf. With a cry Saruman fell back and crawled away

I would probably hunt down PJ and... well I wouldn't do anything nice to him at least, let's just leave it at that... Wink Smilie


Not to be the spoiler guy, but the events that take place in The Voice of Saurman chapter in TTT, will happen at the beginning of the film ROTK. I love when Gandalf breaks Saurman's staff; their exchange of words in that chapter is one of my favorite parts of LOTR. The White Rider definitely shows that slimy dirt bag who’s boss!
Ha Ha Ha Smilie
Yeah, I love that part too - and to keep within topic, I thought in the book Theoden did well to resist Saruman's voice.
I also read somewhere that in the movie this is when Saruman will probably die, has anybody else heard about this?
Rumours are rife about this Naira. This subject has been discussed to great length in several threads within this and the RotK movie sections.
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I also read somewhere that in the movie this is when Saruman will probably die, has anybody else heard about this?


Warning! My response to Naira’s post contains ROTK spoilers!

Hi Naira,

There has been much speculation about this. I also have heard that this will probably be when Saurman dies (because according to P.J. himself, sadly the “scouring of the shire” is out), but there is a lot of conflicting information going around the web on this subject right now. It had been widely rumored for months that Saurman was going to get pushed by Grima from a window in Orthanc, and fall to his death getting impaled on a spiked wheel laying in the dirt at the base of the tower (there is even a pic to support this, I’ve seen it), and then Legolas was going to shoot an arrow over Grima’s head, and Grima laughs thinking Legolas has missed his mark, only to have the arrow come back down and conveniently land in his skull.

However, I’ve been reading recently that this whole “wizard kabob” thing was a deliberate hoax filmed by P.J. because he was mad that too many “spies” were getting too close to the set when he was trying to film the actual death footage for Saurman that is really going to be used. Please note that this is just a rumor at this point. I’ve also read (again just a rumor) that whatever Saurman death scene P.J. had decided on using, Mr. Lee personally objected to, forcing P.J. to go with a different death scene than the one he had planned on using.

In addition (as I have previously mentioned over in the about the ROTK spoilers thread), I’m not sure how credible the source is, but I read that there were five different deaths for Saurman filmed, and that P.J. and Co. still haven’t decided on which one they’re going to go with. Apparently, Christopher Lee has said in an interview somewhere (I haven’t seen this interview, but I haven’t looked either) that he hopes the ending from the book will be used (also my hope), implying that there was some kind of “scouring” footage. I read that the first cut of the film contained about 6 hours of footage, so it is possible that some “scouring” footage was shot. Again though P.J. has said personally on the record that the “scouring” is out. So as you can see, it’s all just a bunch of rumors, and speculation at this point.

I personally believe that based on P.J.’s comments, and based on what I know to be true (more or less) about the script, and plot for ROTK, that P.J. will probably have Saurman die at the beginning of the film. How exactly that’s going to go down, at this point is still a mystery.
Elf Smilie
Spoiler Alert! however, just merest speculation on my part.
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During the Battle of Isengard, Saruman pointed his staff at Treebeard from the lower most window of Orthanc and was preparing to blast him when Treebeard stretched to his tallest, and with one hand he snatched the staff right out of Saruman's grip, and with the other, he grabbed Saruman about the waist.

Treebeard was so angry with Saruman that he took the staff and rammed it up Saruman's ... wait for it ... nose, from which Saruman contracted an infection. As antibiotics had yet to be discovered, Saruman died in hospital of the dreaded deadly staphylococcus (staff) infection ...
And to bring this back to topic:
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... while Theoden stood by Saruman's bedside.
Elf With a Big Grin Smilie

[Edited on 11/6/2003 by Grondmaster]
Big Laugh Smilie Although why would Theoden stood by Saruman during his death is anybody's guess Wink Smilie
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Big Laugh Smilie Although why would Theoden stood by Saruman during his death is anybody's guess Wink Smilie
Maybe so Theoden could stick him with his sword if Saruman didn't stay dead?
Sorry, haven't been on for a while....anyway.

The one thing that made a lot of people mad is Gandalf's 'drawing Saruman like poison from a wound.' I know to stay away from the whole religious schpiel on this site, but don't you think PJ could have found some other, less contraversial (don't know if I spelt that right) way to display Gandalf the White's power?

And another thing is Theoden's desperateness. What is up with that? In the book he wasn't so much desperate as sad, knowing that this was probably their last stand. Theoden had a comment similar to that: "If this is to be their end, then I would have them make such an end as to be worthy of rememberence." (That's one of my favorite lines, by the way Big Smile Smilie!) But he was angrier and more of a pessimist than he should have been. As of now (and this may change) I can not see Merry becoming friends and crying at the death of Theoden. Again, that may change with RotK, but...yeah.

Once again, THE MOVIE WAS AWESOME!!! It should receive more that just best movie of the year. It and FotR (and RotK, I am sure) should receive best movie of ALL TIME!!

I just kinda was wondering about Theoden...

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I just kinda was wondering about Theoden...
Having only seen the movie once, I'm not qualified to say what made PJ's Theoden tick. I'll have to leave that up to sepdet and others who like getting into the characters' heads, while I was just enjoying the story.
I have to agree, Beleg. I also found something jarring about PJs portrayal of Theoden, and it wasn't just the loss of the long snowy beard (Bernard Hill being way too young, and dare I say it too handsome to be Theoden).

The whole posession thing was a little clumsy. I felt that Tolkien's use of Wormtongue and his whisperings was more subtle and showed how vulnerable a kingdom is to one corrupt counselor who knows which buttons to push. The whole technical specifications of the Palantiri were blown out of the water too. Since when do Palantiri allow a user to travel into the mind of a person who does not have one?

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had a Theoden comment similar to that: "If this is to be their end, then I would have them make such an end as to be worthy of rememberence."


Yes, in the book, Theoden seemed ready to die, yet courageously, he chose to do it giving hope to others.

For Merry's reaction, I think it remains to be seen how well the actors can pull it off.

One thing that I really did like about the movie though, was the reaction of Theoden to Theodred's death. I think it worked better. Almost cried for Theodred's death myself. Very Sad Smilie
Yeah, that was pretty sad Very Sad Smilie. They pulled that one off wonderfully. My ma cried when Theoden said "No parent should have to bury their children." ( heaves a sigh)

I though Hama died a bit too quick for effect, though. He is my favorite Rohanian.

As to the Palatir thing--yes, that was a bit much (but I just loved seeing Saruman being thrown across the room! Big Smile Smilie Big Laugh Smilie )

The one thing that I find in all of the characters is how much they have been expanded on. Every character has had a little more room to grow and more room to be felt. Especially with Grima. The tear was awesome.
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I would put Theodens's age at around 70, give or take a few years.


I don't get it, I mean, I read that Aragorn was in his 80's...yet Theoden is younger than him and still manages to look older. Something fishy is going on me-thinks! Orc Going Huh Smilie
Nothing fishy, it's his Numenorean blood Halo.
Good old Numenor...which reminds me!

This is somewhat off topic, but did anyone know what Gandalf actually was? Aragorn might have, and Legolas probably did, but did anyone else?
Cirdan certainly did. I would have thought Elrond, Galadriel and Celeborn would have too. No doubt Tom Bombadil would have recognised his spirit as being Olorin too.
I wonder if Grima knew who the wizards were...
That's quite a good point Beleg.

My first impression would have been No. However, he did serve Saruman for a long while, and would have had a good insight into Saruman's ways. Saruman was quite arrogant, and it wouldn't have surprised me if he hadn't given Grima the, "I'm really a deity," spiel at some stage.