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Thread: Haldir at Helms Deep

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Haldir kinda got on my nerves too!

Still, I hope rumours that Elrond (himself) will be at Helms Deep are greatly eggagerated.
Don't know, but if Haldir's gonna get killed, lets not argue with the guy! Big Smile Smilie
Oh god me too Mad Smilie Is there gonna be anything left thats recognisable from the book?? Theres probably going to be a book of the movie thats completely different to the origional too....I hope all these rumours arent true!
Oi! I kinda liked Haldir!
I liked Hadir in the book, but in the movie he was just so camp it was unbelievable, I kept expecting him to sing YMCA. Wink Smilie
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I liked Hadir in the book, but in the movie he was just so camp it was unbelievable, I kept expecting him to sing YMCA. Wink Smilie


yeah......as a row of tents. Hated him. I like a man to be a man, if you know what I mean. I dont think elves should be that androgynous. Shaking Head Smilie
Camp as a row of pink tents. Yes Haldir is going to be at helms deep along with a contingent of elves. Is this PJ out of his mind or was he just taking halluconegenic drugs at the time he read the books. I personally think we should force him to read the book, as it is looking very doubtful that he read it in the first place.
Hey-don't say those awful things about Haldir(in the movie)-he's born at the same date I am! Cool Smilie But isn't he supposed to appear a bit more in the extended version?
I think Peter Jackson needed a "good guy" to kill in TTT, you know, Boromir dies in FOTR and Theoden dies in ROTK, so he had to find someone for TTT. It still stinks though!! Angry Elf Smilie

Pumpkin Smilie Watch out for goblins and werewargs tonight!! Pumpkin Smilie
Shocked Elf Smilie I'd say Denethor's carrying Faramir off to the Tombs with the intent of burning him on his funeral pyre, comes close enough to fulfilling this third fake death requirement. Happy Elf Smilie
"Jacksonizms" - I like that!

Okay, we are going to see Arwen at Helms Deep too. I cant help but feel that Tolkien would strongly dissaprove of all this "Warrior Princess" stuff. And where are her brothers? The most logical additions to Aragron's army, and they have been forgotten. Mad Smilie
Maybe there'll be two sisters instead-Gabrielle and Hercules-ea.... Big Laugh Smilie
Don't say that raptor, Shocked Smilie don't you know that what you say sometimes happens? Big Smile Smilie We do not need Arwen lopping orc heads beside Aragorn in TTT. Big Smile Smilie
anime thrives on Androgyny - maybe PJ was just returning from Japan when he cast all those Lothlorien elves (who I was afraid would start singing Streisand tunes)...

THey'd fit in perfectly though, in any anime movie...
LOL!!!! True true!!!
Just watched the fellowship again and I see what you mean about him being camp! a tad too much makeup as well I think Big Smile Smilie
but really, what IS Jackson thinking when he puts him at Helms Deep??? Whats he gonna do there? make tea for everyone? admire the Buttresses?? Tongue Smilie
Not long after Helm's Deep, Haldir and the elves of Lothlorien would have been fighting the forces from Dol Guldur. Rather than confusing the people who had never read the books, and having to stage two battles instead of one, Peter the Magnificent has probably placed Haldir at Helm's Deep so that he at least gets some credit for rumbling with the bad guys.

Okay, we all know he wasn't at Helms Deep, and loads of people are going to go away thinking he was, but I'd rather that be the case than they go away believing the elves of Lothlorien had no part to play in the War.
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Not long after Helm's Deep, Haldir and the elves of Lothlorien would have been fighting the forces from Dol Guldur.

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Peter the Magnificent has probably placed Haldir at Helm's Deep so that he at least gets some credit for rumbling with the bad guys.


MAybe they'll bring Dol Guldur at Hel'm Deep,too..
Maybe we should wait for the movie to come out and then lambaste Peter, only if he actually transmats Haldir to Helm's Deep. Elf With a Big Grin Smilie

I don't suppose Haldir could have traveled south with the Dunedan, and after having fought at Helm's Deep, chickened-out on walking the 'Paths of the Dead'; thus, he returned to Lothlorien just in time to join Celeborn's forces against Dol Guldur? Cool Elf Smilie
I don't think Haldair should of been at Helm's deep. I mean it is not the elves war. They are leaving not staying, so why should they fight. The war is for man kind, they live in middle earth and are staying in middle earth.
~Irima-arwen
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I don't think Haldair should of been at Helm's deep. I mean it is not the elves war. They are leaving not staying, so why should they fight.


Okay, I will not disagree that Haldir was not at Helm's Deep. I'm pleased in the films he was, because I feel that really worked well, and for myself was actually one of the best bits of the movie. To say it was not the Elves war, however, is incorrect. Around the time of the Battle of Pelennor, Lorien was assaulted twice from Dol Guldur, and the Woodland Realm in Northern Mirkwood was also attacked. Haldir would almost certainly have taken part in the defence of Lorien. I think it is good that PJ managed to pay homage to all the elves that lost their lives in these battles, even though he did not have the time to film the individual battles.
So Val what your saying is that Peter had the Lorien elves go to Helms Deep so he doesn't have to shoot all the different battles. Because when I was reading the elves never went to Helms Depp unless I missed something.
My point about why I though Haldair shouldn't of been at helm's deep was because of the books, and how he was not in the war at helm deep. I mostly state my oppions on how the book foretelled something. Haldair and the elves did not come to help the Rohimmin. Even though the elves where attacked they did not have to be in the war at helms deep they did not have to fight back at that battle. ~Irima-arwen
dumb PJ
again
making some people cry over that
The elves he brought were pretty cool though
Not trying to be rude but i'm not crying over it, i just didn't like how he put it in. ~Irima-arwen
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So Val what your saying is that Peter had the Lorien elves go to Helms Deep so he doesn't have to shoot all the different battles. Because when I was reading the elves never went to Helms Depp unless I missed something.


Pretty much so, Adweena. The attacks on Lorien and the Woodland realm barely get a mention in the book outside of the appendices, so it is unlikely PJ would have been able to find the time and money to fit even more battles into his films. If those Elves had not been there, however, fighting the forces from Dol Guldur, Sauron's army at Minas Tirith would have been even larger. It was not just Men fighting the war against Sauron. It was all of the Free People. I'm sure if PJ had not sent a contingent of Elves to Helm's Deep, many people would be complaining that he had done nothing to recognise the sacrifices the Elves had made (albeit elsewhere).

Given sufficient time and funding, it would have been nice to have seen the Battle beneath the trees, but we all knew that wasn't going to happen. I'm just pleased he managed to recognise their sacrifices somewhere.
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The attacks on Lorien and the Woodland realm barely get a mention in the book outside of the appendices, so it is unlikely PJ would have been able to find the time and money to fit even more battles into his films.


Furthermore, in the books there were attacks on Erebor and the Men from Dale. Those battles are as important as Pelennor fields, let alone Helm's Deep, but as they are only mentioned by Gandalf once in one of the last chapters of ROTK (heh, the one in which Aragorn marries Arwen), same as the battles in Mirkwood and the attack on Lothlorien, it's logical for PJ not to focus on them. Yet, i see no reason to put Elves at Helm's Deep, when this is not in the book.

If i were PJ, i'd let Frodo sit on the Seat of Amon Hen with the Ring on : then Frodo saw Orcs come out their holes in the Misty Mountains, smoke on the borders of Lothlorien, battle in Mirkwood, etc. Putting in this scene from the book in the movie would've made ppl understand that battle was everywhere around Middle-Earth. Following the books would've been best, as always.

PJ must've thought "a fantasy movie without Elves in??? Impossible! Send them in!"
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If i were PJ, i'd let Frodo sit on the Seat of Amon Hen with the Ring on : then Frodo saw Orcs come out their holes in the Misty Mountains, smoke on the borders of Lothlorien, battle in Mirkwood, etc. Putting in this scene from the book in the movie would've made ppl understand that battle was everywhere around Middle-Earth.


I think that is how I would have liked to have seen it too, Vir. In a few minutes of film he could have shown these people fighting for their homes, and shown just widespread the war was. I hadn't forgotten about the Battle at Erebor either... one of my short stories in the fan fiction section, The Coming of the Eastern Dragon, is based around that very battle.
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The Coming of the Eastern Dragon

Hmm, i think the Easter Dragon would've been more welcome to the Dwarfies than the Eastern Dragon... in fact, is it a Chinese Dragon you mean? Heh, so the Chinese Wall wasn't long or high enough it seems.
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in fact, is it a Chinese Dragon you mean?


Nah, not really. It just refers to the fact that Erebor and Dale were not attacked from Dol Guldor, but by Easterlings from beyond the Sea of Rhun.
Ah, OK. I thought you indeed meant dragons, like the ones who attacked the Dwarves in the Iron Mountains, etc.

Is that story still around somewhere? sounds interesting.
It should be in the fan writings section on the left hand menu bar. Be warned if you do read it, though, Vir, I am not JRR and the story is only my own interpretation of the way things could have occured based around the limited knowledge we do have of the actual event. Fan fiction is similar to movie scripts, in that it is someone elses interpretation. My perception of the events may be very different to your own.
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Not long after Helm's Deep, Haldir and the elves of Lothlorien would have been fighting the forces from Dol Guldur. Rather than confusing the people who had never read the books, and having to stage two battles instead of one, Peter the Magnificent has probably placed Haldir at Helm's Deep so that he at least gets some credit for rumbling with the bad guys.

Thank you, Val. This observation finally reconciles me to the elves at Helm's Deep, which I hated when I saw it. But from this perspective, all PJ is doing is a bit of telescoping, not really changing the fundamentals of the story at all. It's even possible to explain the logistics, since with the mirror Galadriel could have forseen the battle coming and sent Haldir off several days in advance. I love this website!
I do have one question though; why does he say he's been sent by Elrond, when we have already seen that he is from Lorien??
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I do have one question though; why does he say he's been sent by Elrond, when we have already seen that he is from Lorien??


It's been a while since I last saw the film, so I might be wrong, but I don't think Haldir actually says he was sent by Elrond. He says something like, "Once there was a great alliance between Elves and Men, and they are here to remember that alliance." What gives the impression that Elrond sent them, is the scene he has talking to Galadriel, in which he says Helm's Deep must be helped. I came away with the impression that Elrond had contacted Galadriel, who had then sent Haldir and Co herself.

I think the reason Elrond gets credit is because he did send his own sons with the Grey Riders. They did not arrive in time for the battle, but did join up with Aragorn afterwards. Unfortunately, this is another area I think PJ could have improved upon.
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I think the reason Elrond gets credit is because he did send his own sons with the Grey Riders. They did not arrive in time for the battle, but did join up with Aragorn afterwards. Unfortunately, this is another area I think PJ could have improved upon.
Yes, In the book Erond sent his twin sons Elladan and Elrohir who road with Halbarad and thirty of the Dunadan, Aragorn's kinsmen.

They also brought with them the furled standard (flag/banner) that Arwen had made and which was later unfurled at the stone of Erech; though the night was so dark that no one could see what device was depicted on the standard. Which in the book, if I remember rightly, we have to wait until the Battle of the Pelennor Fields before we get a look at it.
Well I shall go against the flow, I loved Haldir both in the book, and his two brothers, and in the movie. I very much liked the actor, he simply was more stage directed really in his approach, I thought him wonderful. I did not think him too androgynous and even if he was, what of that, in our world we are all not carbon copies of one another. I saw the move though before I read any of Tolkien's books and wept buckets at his death, I thought it so unfair. Well when I read the book I could have gone all the way to Peter's house and shook him til his teeth rattled. Why on earth he did that is beyond me. Really sometimes I don't understand in the least what his reasoning was in how he did things. But then he is a director and I am not, he is gifted and I .............well.
In real life, I read that Craig is very into sports and gives motivational talks, is one of the kindest and most giving people any of his friends and aquaintances has ever known and has a wondrous garden in back of his house with singing frogs or something really strange like that.
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Why on earth he did that is beyond me.

To show that Elves are immortal, but can still die.

But perhaps PJ should've killed Legolas instead. Or maybe Arwen. Wasn't she supposed to be in Helm's Deep originally? That would've been interesting to see. Pity those Tolkien bookworms complained too much about "Xenarwen" that PJ cut it in the end.
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Wasn't she supposed to be in Helm's Deep originally? That would've been interesting to see.
I would like to see that to Vir .. since Liv Tyler trained so hard with the sword and then PJ decided not to use it in the movie ..what a pitty .I'm sure she would have been better than Xena..
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since Liv Tyler trained so hard with the sword and then PJ decided not to use it in the movie ..

Arya Evenstar?
I think all that training each of the actors received in riding, swordsmanship, canoeing ,all that was an experience of great value in itself and would have sufficed me if that was all that was offered, all that and on such an exquisite island too. sigh......
I was really sad when Haldir died...I guess it really didn't bother me that PJ changed that part.

However...I would have liked to see Arwen at Helm's Deep.
If ONLY to create some tension with Eowyn. Ha Ha Ha Smilie

But, it's interesting that PJ chose not to present Arwen as the warrior princess that she was...
Well...he started to in FOTR...when she raced the ring-wraiths (never mind that she didn't in the books)...but then Arwen almost does a complete character change in the next two movies...I wonder why he did that?

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...I wonder why he did that?

I think it was because when the fans heard PJ planned on having Arwen at Helm's Deep, that they raised such a cry of indignation that he went back and wrote-out her part in the battle. At least that belongs to the 'urban myth' that has grown up around the subject.
Well. then i guess we can still dream what it would have been like to have both arwen and eowyn in the same location. But i have to say that if it had ben done i wouldn't have noticed anything as i bought the book after having watched the film....si atleast i have that to thank PJ. Elk Grinning Smilie
Oh and that makes me remember something. The first time i had watched the two towers i thought that it was legolas who had died on the walls and i argued my head off with my brother until we watched the film again! Elf With a Big Grin Smilie Ignore Smilie
That was probably a Freudian slip of the mind Thorin. After seeing Legolas surfing down those stairs on that shield, your subconscious was just hoping that Legolas had really been done-in. Elf With a Big Grin Smilie
Yeah...most of the times he has a superb talent.....to get on your nerves! Elf With a Big Grin Smilie
Legolas...could NEVER get on MY nerves... Big Smile Smilie And I mean the book character as much as the movie one.
Coming to think of it, it's quaint how Legolas -who is after all just a run-off-the-mill Elf, son of King Thranduil or not- was portrayed as an extremely skilled and nimble fighter, whilst Haldir and most of his fellows went down remarkably easily and clumzily at Helm's Deep.

From Legolas's apparent prowess as shown in the movie, one might have expected every Elf to be highly proficient in combat.

Perchance here we can find the real reason Haldir & Co were sent to Helm's Deep - because of their utterly lacking combat skills they would prove to be totally useless in the defense of Laurelindórenan, hence the Lady sent those useless minions to their death in the most dishonorable way : defending a stronghold of the weak, puny race of Men.
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Coming to think of it, it's quaint how Legolas -who is after all just a run-off-the-mill Elf, son of King Thranduil or not- was portrayed as an extremely skilled and nimble fighter, whilst Haldir and most of his fellows went down remarkably easily and clumzily at Helm's Deep.

I agree withyou Vir, why were the Elves at Helm's deep were so clumsy. In the bookI thought lves were the best people in Middle-Earth at fighting but in the movie, the're just as bad as men.

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[Perchance here we can find the real reason Haldir & Co were sent to Helm's Deep - because of their utterly lacking combat skills they would prove to be totally useless in the defense of Laurelindórenan, hence the Lady sent those useless minions to their death in the most dishonorable way : defending a stronghold of the weak, puny race of Men.

Too true, too true Smile Smilie

Namarie!
Perhaps Legolas, who was , in my opinion anything BUT ordinary, book and movie,was more skilled because of where h e lived, it seemed to be logistically in a much more dangerous area.One had to be on one's toes always.
I saw the documentary that told of how hard, in real life it was for everyone that played elves and orcs during those months of shooting the Helm's Deep part. Because it was continually raining and they went over scene after scene hour after terrible hour in the dead of night, many many of the actors succumbed to such illnesses as pneumonia. They truly suffered and it amazes me how they just went on and on. Medication or no, I contracted pnuemonia in both lungs while I was attendant on graveyard shifts at a senior's residence and I was so ill that even after the bout of very powerful drugs I was weak and trembly for nearly a full year afterward. I admire those people very very much.
I would have liked to see lady Arwen use those weapons.I am quite sure she would have been spectacular. You go girl.
One would only expect of such exceptionally combative women as Haleth or Éowyn to be able to hold themselves together in Helm's Deep, but to expect of Elrond's daughter, the Evenstar of her people, or any Elven women to have received the necessary long and arduous military forming required to stand against thralls of evil, let alone to expect them to be allowed to go wandering in the wild all alone with Nazgűl or Uruk-hai on the prowl, is ludicrous.

Lady Arwen as Tolkien created her, would only end up speared against a tree like Finduilas in the Silmarillion. Or rather, considering the venue, she would end up in a cooking-pot.

Granted, even if PJ's Arwen goes against what Tolkien has written, that does not mean it wouldn't be exciting to see on the big screen.
Well of course,the professor's lady Arwen would probably not do anything Edith would not do, she was a plucky girl though and danced in the woods for her love. But the arthritis made her unable to do certain things.
Who knows, perhaps if Edith never got sick in her body she would have been a very very daring lady and thus lady Arwen as well. I mean even if she only practised, say, every hundred years for a month or so-she in fact DID have a couple of thousand years. Smile Smilie
It would have been neat to see how she managed with those flowing gowns of hers.
By the by Vir, do you fence or anything like that? Archery, riding?