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Yeah, I wasn't exactly thrilled by the changes to Faramir either. But I got over it in about ...oh, twenty seconds.

Anyway, I think we'll see it made up for in RotK.

I liked the way Pippin tricked Treebeard into changing his mind. It was a clever way of showing a little more clearly the Ent's motivations for attacking Isengard.
I liked Treebeard a whole lot better in the book, so I definitely feel you on that one, Faye...however, I think that with the time limits and things, they did the best they could. Also, the Ents attacking Isengard was awesome, so all was not ruined... Cool Smilie

Personally, I didn't like that they had Saruman physically take over (inhabit? posess?) Theoden...thought that was a bit cheesy.

Also, did anyone else think that Gollum's golluming sort of sounded like a cat with a nasty hairball? I had always imagined the noise to be more glottal and less like a hacking cough.
Okay, I really liked them taking Frodo and Sam to Osgiliath, as them wandering about aimlessly gets old very quickly in the book, let alone on screen. Plus it adds a nice visual flair, as everyone concerned is now stuck in the thick of battle at the same time (yep, I can spot your tricks Mr Jackson) and as they breathe their collective sigh of relief and prepare for the next encounter, we sit here and wait another year. D@mn good film-making if you ask me.
I haven't seen the movie yet but I hope the changes to Faramir weren't that bad Sad Smilie
I hate to say it, but they are. You just have to hope that Progs right, and he comes through in the next one. Well, he does come back to form at the end "Then it is Forfeit" is in fact a great line, and shows a bit of OUR Faramir back again.
As I said in the Character's thread about Faramir, I don't think PJ has dramatically altered Faramir's personality in the film from what it was in the TT book.

Faramir's wisdom and bravery shine more in RotK than in TTT. When he first meets Frodo in the book he does question him, and he does doubt Frodo's answers particularly about Boromir. He has just lost his brother and his country is about to be plunged into war. He is going to have an air of mistrust and saddness about him...He did in the book.

Any disappointment about him taking the hobbits to Osgiliath was compensated by seeing Osgiliath itself (I didn't think we would in this film), and the scene at the waterfall was exactly as I had always imagined it to be. Their attack on the Haradrim army was excellant too.
do you think Faramir will still end up with Eowyn? Will they make him look hopelessly heroic in front of her - Right now, I can't see that PJ will do a "instant" love for the two in any way (even one sided)
I haven't seen it yet,so i didn't read what's upside-I don't want to be rude-just that i don't wanna spoil things(if there's anything to spoil)for me.From what i saw,you majorly didn't like it too much....here's my opinion(based on FOTR):someone tryed,but not enough,and too much money was at stake.If there had been some rich guy who pays his bills in pure gold,then it would have been a great movie,shaped by the book.Unfortunatly,we can't have that,so...I wown't be dissapointed because I wown't expect too much from guys that made 'balrog-candles'...?! Sad Smilie Sorry if my post was way off topic-i'll give another opinion after I see TTT.
oh dear, oh dear Faramir dark, Gimli - there aren't words to describe the lines and Haldir dead!!!!!!! aaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh
SPOILERS!

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Val. Which is why Faramir didn't get my panties all in a bunch. He ISN"T Boromir. He DOESN"T try to take the ring from Frodo. He's very unsure of Frodo and his intentions. Taking Isildur's Bane right into Mordor? WHAT?

Unlike Boromir, it's not greed but purely a sense of duty to Gondor that he decides to take Frodo to Minas Tirith. When he comes to understand Frodo's intentions HE LETS HIM GO!! WITH THE RING!! TO GO TO MORDOR!!

I think we'll see more of Faramir's character as WE know it in RotK. Honestly, I DO. If I'm wrong, I'll eat my shorts! Big Laugh Smilie

I think I was bothered more by Aragorn's "death." I can't see the reasoning behind it (and because I honestly trust PJ, I'm sure there was a reason for EVERY little change). Any theories on that? It's been a few days since I saw it and my recollection isn't too good.

There were a couple of changes that I honestly think are improvements when you consider the format. The exorcism of Theoden. Eomer and Co. saving the day at Helm's Deep. Treebeard's reaction to seeing the devastation at Isengard. Great stuff! It's LotR, Millenium Style Big Laugh Smilie

Anyway, IT'S A MOVIE! Just sit back, relax and enjoy it for what it is. That's what I did, and I'm certain that's why I enjoyed it so much more than some other Tolkien fans. And besides, IT'S AS GOOD AS WE'RE EVER GOING TO GET! Make the most of it.

Be Cool Smilie

[Edited on 12/22/2002 by ProgHead777]
I'm just going to brainwash myself that the entire Faramir thing happened exactly like the book... I've seen it twice, and I think other changes are great - with some exceptions (I don't like the way the edited - helms deep - then swaying ents?? too jarring for me)
I completely agree with everyone who is upset with the treatment of Faramir, but as others have pointed out, I'm also holding out hope that Faramir's true quality will be shown in ROTK. Prog, I think you make a good point about enjoying the film for what it's worth, because that's all we're going to get! That's basically where I have kinda arrived, the major things that bother me are always going to bother me, but they did get some things right, and I'd rather have the scenes with Gandalf, and the Balrog, and the breaking of Isengard, Gollum, etc.than nothing at all.
Elf Smilie
Okay, it's a good movie, not the same as the books, but still a good movie. And I guarantee I'll be saying this again next year this time as well....

btw. Hows about Legolas, Aragorn and Gimli kicking a clear way for Gandalf through Edoras, how cool was that? Don't think they did that in the book now did they? But I loved it. As well as the battles all being cut from one to the other, to show the general scale of the fighting across middle earth (which doesn't come across until afterwards in the book) well done MR Jackson, fine film-making.
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Anyway, IT'S A MOVIE! Just sit back, relax and enjoy it for what it is. That's what I did, and I'm certain that's why I enjoyed it so much more than some other Tolkien fans. And besides, IT'S AS GOOD AS WE'RE EVER GOING TO GET! Make the most of it.
Too true, Prog. It is different, but we always knew it would be. We have been treated to an extremely well made film in which vast amounts of small details have been concentrated upon for us. It could have been far, far worse. We are never going to get anything better.
I know PLastic - I just really - really - like Faramir - what if they made Gollum a Gimpy hobbit that was more like Wormtongue? Wouldn't you be a bit miffed?
Hmmm...since you put it that way... Wink Smilie

But really, I'm sure it will all be made up for in RotK. The old rule is "Show, Don't Tell", and really, Faramir hasn't had a chance to show his nobility at this point. Like Val said, that all comes later.
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I know PLastic - I just really - really - like Faramir - what if they made Gollum a Gimpy hobbit that was more like Wormtongue? Wouldn't you be a bit miffed?


Okay, but nobody would get away with messing up Gollum, even people who don't read the books know who you mean when you say "My Precioussssssss" in their ear.

or alternatively.....

I'd like it just fine.
Hey did any of you guys see the list of deleted scenes from TTT?

http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1040672176
I'm glad the storyline of Arwen taking part at Helm's Deep was scrapped or else we will really spit blood, won't we, Tolkien purists? Tongue Smilie
Thanks to Stonehelm for posting the great link to all the deleted scenes in TT. I hadn't seen that list yet, and it definitely got me a lot more excited for the special edition of TT!
Happy Elf Smilie
My thanks too Stonehelm, maybe there is hope yet. Some of those scenes would be best not to see the light of day, while others have just got to show up in the extended DVD.
I agree GM, some of those scenes I never want to see(and I do mean never), but some of the other material looks like it could have some very promising potential! I'm already chomping at the bit to see that scene between Smeagol, and Deagol in ROTKl
Super Wow Smilie
Did anyone else notice that the movie ended about 130 early? Sad Smilie That was the only thing that really bothered me that has really stuck with me, having seen TTT a week ago. I mean, it is a movie, and they can take certian liberties and such, but at least end it in the right place if you're going to put the book's title on it. I was looking forward to the scene with Shelob, and then when Sam takes the ring from Frodo Very Sad Smilie ...they did end it in a good spot, but still...
Oh well: there were other things that bothered me, but I got over them. After all, they did do a good job overall...it's better than that cartoon version anyway.
Smoke Smilie
Welcome to Planet-Tolkien eabisme!

Hello eabisme, welcome to PT Big Smile Smilie

On the deleted scenes thing, I have to agree completely with Grondy's comment. Some great, some not so great.

Great:

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A beautiful soliloquy from Faramir post-battle with the Haradrim, where he asks rethorically 'I wonder what his name was, where his home is, his family. Was he really evil at heart, or did the Dark Lord deceive him, as he has deceived so many others? What lies or threats led him on the long march from his home?'


I know that actually belongs to Sam but it is great none the less.

Not-So-Great:

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The storyline of Arwen taking part in Helm's Deep, including shots of the Rivendell Elves arriving at Lothlorien and Arwen sleeping under falling leaves, was completely scrapped


This was a major rumor going around that I spent a great deal of time poo-pooing. I didn't think it would happen that way and, thankfully, it didn't. I have my doubts that it was ever there in the first place...
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Anyway, IT'S A MOVIE! Just sit back, relax and enjoy it for what it is. That's what I did, and I'm certain that's why I enjoyed it so much more than some other Tolkien fans. And besides, IT'S AS GOOD AS WE'RE EVER GOING TO GET! Make the most of it.


Good advice Prog - I will have to remember that.

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do you think Faramir will still end up with Eowyn? Will they make him look hopelessly heroic in front of her - Right now, I can't see that PJ will do a "instant" love for the two in any way (even one sided)


My guess is he will not miss out on this opportunity to add a little more romance to the story.
Plus I think that not only Eowyn but all of us would benefit from Faramir's character being more heroic again in RotK.

I must say I share everyone's sentiments on the deleted scenes.
I just saw TTT for the second time and, like most others here, after I saw the film the first time had been very disappointed with the changes from the book - especially the portrayal of Faramir, the 'side trip' to Osgilath, and the 'death' of Aragorn. Actually, I felt much the same way after watching FOTR the first time, but afterwards came to appreciate the movie on its own... (extended version Smile Smilie ) And similarly, tonight I enjoyed TTT a great deal more than previously, now that the 'deviations' were known. It allowed me to focus much more on watching the movie, rather than comparing each scene to the book and tallying a list of scenes from the book that were missing!

All that being said, as many here have discussed at length and as PJ discussed in an interview I read today - when watching the film tonight I felt that Faramir ended TTT as the character that we all know from the book and PJ merely created an extended 'transition' period from the 'front-line' captain to the so-called 'wise and noble' Faramir. IMO

Regarding 'deleted' scenes: I haven't seen any threads discuss this, but isn't it entirely possible that Gandalf's meeting with Merry/Pippin at Isengard, Gandalf/Saruman dialogue, and the Merry's Palantir incident (i.e., the last four chapters of book three) could be included (at least partially) in ROTK? Or does Frodo showing the ring to the Nazgul eliminate the need for the Palantir chapter?

The Aragorn 'death' sequence, still seems to be a complete NewLine insertion, I don't see any relevance except to create drama for the 'general public' and to highlight Aragorn and Arwen's relationship. IMO

When's the TTT extended version coming out? Wink Smilie
Welcome to Planet-Tolkien, Tyrion. Pull up a chair and make yourself comfy Big Smile Smilie

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when watching the film tonight I felt that Faramir ended TTT as the character that we all know from the book and PJ merely created an extended 'transition' period from the 'front-line' captain to the so-called 'wise and noble' Faramir. IMO


I definitely agree with you on that point. There WAS a transistion for Faramir in the book... PJ just made it a little longer and more elaborate. This is probably to the advantage of the story later in RotK when we see more of his heroic qualities. Those who haven't read the books probably thought "oh, here we go again, Faramir and Boromir, two peas in a pod." Then by the end, they see that Faramir is much different from his brother.

If roles had been reversed and it had been Boromir they encountered in Ithilien, the ring would undoubtedly have been taken immediately and the Hobbits may even have been percieved as agents of Sauron and killed.

I think we've certainly already seen an inkling of Faramir's honor and intelligence. I'm sure it will be expanded upon in RotK.

As for Faramir and Eowyn's relationship, I'm betting it will be included. After all, PJ said that most of the liberties taken were taken with TTT and RotK is most faithful to the book. This only makes sense as the story becomes much more compact and therefore more easily translated to film in RotK.
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Or does Frodo showing the ring to the Nazgul eliminate the need for the Palantir chapter?
I've been wondering a lot why the scene with Frodo on the battlements was included in the film. The best I can come up with so far is to show the movie-goers why Sauron attacks Minas Tirith (where he believes the Ring to be going after this scene) and lets the two hobbits slip unnoticed through Mordor.
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Regarding 'deleted' scenes: I haven't seen any threads discuss this, but isn't it entirely possible that Gandalf's meeting with Merry/Pippin at Isengard, Gandalf/Saruman dialogue, and the Merry's Palantir incident (i.e., the last four chapters of book three) could be included (at least partially) in ROTK? Or does Frodo showing the ring to the Nazgul eliminate the need for the Palantir chapter?
Yes, most of those scenes will be in the RotK; however, if Sauron now knows Frodo had the ring at Osgilaith and hence supposedly at Minas Tirith, then we can kiss-off the thrown palantir, because Sauron no longer needs the suspicion that Aragorn has the Ring via the Palantir to force his attack on their city too soon. We still had better get the 'Paths of the Dead' though. The extended DVD of TTT had better show Perry, Pippin, and Treebeard meeting Gandalf or explain what that short scene was about as it made no sense to me.

I saw the film for the first time yesterday and knowing in advance that Faramir was going to be different, I was completely satisfied with PJ's handling of the affair. And speaking of which, Aragorn did nothing to lead Eowyn on; it wasn't Eowyn who came to him in his time of need, but Arwen, so her place in his mind is still safe. As I have said elsewhere today, his pseudo-death scene was just another needed to highlight our knowledge that Eowyn had fallen in lover with him: girl meets boy, girl looses boy, girl finds boy, etc. Happy Elf Smilie
Tyrion, it sounds like we had a very similar experience when seeing TTT for the second time! The biggest thing that still bothers me is the scene at Osgiliath. Outside of the fact that it just didn’t happen, and should not have been in the film, my major problem was, now Sauron knows where the ring is! I have always felt that the whole reason Frodo, and Sam were able to slip into Mordor, was because Sauron’s eye was fixed on Isengard. He thought Saurman had the ring (hence the significance of Pippen looking into the Palantir, which we obviously did not get to see in the film). I too, have wondered a lot why PJ choose to do things this way, and I have to agree with Val in the sense that I think PJ is trying to set up why Sauron attacks Minas Tirith, and why he thinks the ring is in Gondor (as he really does when Aragorn reveals himself in the Palantir in ROTK).

Unfortunately, this means that I have to agree with GM in that we can probably kiss the scenes with Gandalf, Pippen, and the Palantir goodbye. Although, I do have a feeling that if PJ does the scene where Gandalf, and co. confront Saurman at Orthanc (and he better), we will see Grima chuck the Palantir out of the window at Gandalf. However, again, I do think PJ is skipping the fact that Sauron believed the ring to be at Isengard (and just about everything else concerning that matter), because that is the only thing that can even remotely explain that awful scene with Frodo trying to give the ring to the Nazgul. GM, I think you are probably right on the mark with your assessment of Aragorn's supposed death, as that seems to be the only logical explanation for the need for that scene.
Elf Smilie
I think it's kinda weird that in the trailers you see a lot of Eomer and no Faramir, while in the movie it's the other way round. Maybe we'll see more of Eomer in the extended edition. Wink Smilie
Denethor had a Palantir too - didn't he? So maybe we will still see a Pippin/Palantir scene, but it will be in Minas Tirith instead of Isengard...
I hope they at do something with Pippin and the Palantir, even if it is only a small bit.
I really doubt that the Pippin/Palintir scene will be in RotK. As a couple of people have pointed out, there is no way to misdirect Sauron any longer - at least in regards to Isengard. As GM says, Frodo's showing of the ring to the Nazgul can still be used in the story as motivation for Sauron to move against Minas Tirith, but I'm not sure that this will even be alluded to in RotK - after all, at the end of TTT, Gandalf says something to the effect that 'Sauron's response will be swift'... so they may skip over the whole misdirection/uncertainty subplot. Finally, given the reduction of Merry and Pippin's role in TTT, I'm really worried about how much of their stories will be told in RotK... there are so many great parts that I won't even try to list them here!

Also, GM, I definitely agree with your assessment of Aragorn's death - I really didn't consider the fact that PJ would use up so much time just to highlight Eowyn's affection for Aragorn. IMO, it could have been used much more effectively on other areas... as I said before - there's always the extended version! Tongue Smilie
An extended edition on TTT will hopefully include those really good scenes that are closer to the book somehow (kinda like The Fellowship Extended DVD which had those really cool scenes that brought us closer to the book somehow). As for the changes between book and movie in the TTT...Since PJ had already exlained that is was going to be very different from the book I had already repared myself for the worst. DOn't get me wrong I loved the movie and some of the changes weren't bad (movie-wise) I felt confused when they were suddenly at Osgiliath and Frodo showed the Ring to the Nazgul...which might leave the palantir scenes out. Overall it was a really good movie and it had some really cool gems for Tolikien geeks (like me! Smoke Smilie )
I just want to ask something - in the movie, Eomer never introduced himself to Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli, is that because Aragorn already knew who he was? If so, then how?
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just want to ask something - in the movie, Eomer never introduced himself to Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli, is that because Aragorn already knew who he was? If so, then how?
Did I just imagine I saw that scene, or was it in one of the trailers, or did you blink during it Naira; . Elf Confused Smilie
Tee hee hee, no you are not imagining things Grondy.

I really hope they still show the Pippin/Pilantir scene in RotK even though it would no longer serve to misdirect Sauron's attention from Frodo in Mordor - it would still illustrate the mysterious power that the Pilantir has over Pippin after he has touched it, which I found very intriguing when reading the book.
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Did I just imagine I saw that scene, or was it in one of the trailers, or did you blink during it Naira


You mean he did say he was Eomer, son of Eomund to them?? I must have missed it! Mad Smilie Guess I have another reason to watch it again Big Smile Smilie
I saw The Movie again today and have come to the conclusion that Grondy and I were experiencing dual-hallucination... Eomer doesn't actually introduce himself in the movie, Big Smile Smilie *embarrassed grin* but at least we can assume that Aragorn may have already known of him.
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Eomer doesn't actually introduce himself in the movie, *embarrassed grin* but at least we can assume that Aragorn may have already known of him
Doesn't he even say he is 'Eomer, Third Marshal of Riddermark'? leading to Gimli's, Eomer's, and Legolas's threatening speeches.
I haven`t read through all the post, but I just want to say that I`m kinda dissapointed `bout TTT...I haven`t really agreed with myself yet, but the changes were soooo dramatic!!! The critics and PJ and everyone else, say that TTT is much better than FotR, but I don`t think one can compare them,they are two very different films...I understand that this film must be different than the first, it needs progression, but still...I actually caught myself rolling my eyes several times, and I only do that if I'm really worked up by something!

Some of the scenes and the short comments was really uneccessary,they mostly came from wonderboy Legolas ( who still is veeeery yummy) and then the scene when Gandalvs`horse (can`t remember the name at the moment) comes riding in slow motion over a hill with music in the background! I laughed! I understand that this was meant as a....lovely? scene, but when I heard the music I pictured two ppl running towards eachother with arms wide open! Big Smile Smilie

I know I'll like the film better for each time I see it, but this was my first impression...but don't get me wrong, several times goosebumps sneaked up on me and made me shiver with pure joy, and I have a bad habit of not breathing when I get excited and see something magnificent, so I really drew breath a couple of times! Well...that's all reallly... Smoke Smilie
That's what I thought, remi and Arwen. Thanks for clearing it up for me but I will still go and watch TTT again. Animated Wink Smilie
Doesn't Eomer look crosseyed in that helmet? Maybe there is a bit cut out there, where he introduces himself (but I kinda thought his quote about "even his own kin" spoke volumes about who he actually was).

I did like the part with ARagorn being so frustrated that he thought he lost the hobbits that he just screams and kicks anything nearby.

(Okay, I'm just trying to think of the parts I liked here)
I still think PJ must have a "thing" for LivTyler to put her on the screen so much (didn't I tell you that poster was a sign of things to come???? ARWEN??? HELLO! Wink Smilie ) He just wanted to see her cry ala Armageddon... I didn't mind the "flash forward" but why spend SO much time on it? Why couldn't Aragorn think on that while he was "dying" (another part I thought was unnecessary, but OK as a change). Oh... wait... I was trying to think of parts I *liked* - .... well... I did like all the Sam/Frodo parts, even the one with the ringwraith - but I didn't like the speech...
Someone's gotta put a stop to this!!Sorry to be the one.

Would you all be happyer if there were no movies in the first place?Feel lucky you get to see them in time and are able to buy and get all you want on Tolkien and his works...I think PJ did his best,and he at leat deserves respect for trying-and here!I loved the movie,I think it was superb!-it's different from the book,yes,but the two,being different are more magical!!!!!!!It's like reading the books is a story and seeing the movies another,but with the same bases and in the same INDREDIBLY BEAUTIFUL word.

my opinion
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this already but I just put it in anyhow. Smile Smilie The first shot of the Nazgul was cool, because it looked as if it was on a horse (those who hadn't read the book most likely thought so) then the camera pans away and you see the Nazgul was actually riding a dragonlike creature.
Don't know if this belongs in this thread, but I just have to mention that Mr. Bloom two times forgot to put on his blue lences...and it was close-up pictures of him too..*tehehehe* AAAAAnyway.......
Big Smile Smilie Hehe, you're right! Actually in the original Legolas poster for LOTR:TTT he has also forgot to put in his blue lenses. Major movie mistake!

[Edited on 20/1/2003 by Naira]
Eomer does say his name. Aragorn says they are friends of Theoden. Eomer says Theoden doesn't recognize friend from foe, not even his own kin. Then he takes his helmet of and says his name. "I'm Eomer.." and so on.

Why did the wargs look like hyenas? The olliphant seemed to be a huuge pre-historical forfather of the elephant, maybe the hyena-wargs was suppose to be like a pre-historical forfather of the wolves? In my head the wargs were a race of big wolves and the olliphant was just an elephant, but the name had just canged slighlty as the hobbits only knew the elephant from legends and stories.
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