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Thread: Elves at Helms Deep

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Since I am a purist, I did not like the addition of the Elves to the Battle of Helms Deep. I also wondered why they had Haldir lead them because in the book Haldir seems only to be a guard and not a captain.
The reason why there are elves at Helm`s Deep, is because everybodys favourite creature in Middle-Earth is elves. so now it is more elves than one (Legolas), that means that the crowd is content with the movie.
Welcome to the site Lurtz.

During the War of the Ring, elves of Lorien fought battles against forces from Dol Guldur which though barely mentioned in LotR were just as crucial as Helm's Deep and Pelinnor Fields. I believe PJ wanted to give the elves credit for the blood they shed but did not have time or funds for another major battle. His solution was to send a company of them to die valiently at Helm's Deep.
I think they brought the elves in, yes definatly because everyone love the elves and wants to see more of them because they are not in the books very much, but also because I think they are trying to stress the alliance of men and elves. As for Haldir, they leave out a lot of people throughtout the movies and they add in a ton more, but for the flow of the movie, it works if we already know the person. If a new elf from Lothlorien came, it wouldn't mean anything to us.
Grondy moved this thread from Characters. Happy Elf Smilie
i agree with that valed guy there were 3 attacks on lorien and a massive battle under the trees in Mirkwood was fought so instead of Making a new battle he added them to the Battle of Helms deep

THe reason i THink Haldir was sent to lead them is he is the only other fighting Elf known to the non lotr reader besides elrond and Legolas and the company seems to be from lothlorion or mostly from there so they sent there best warrior out
i think the elves were a decent addition because i was yearning for more elfish action since the prolouge.....unlike Helms Deep having only 300 defenders it was definately worth changing the story for Tongue Smilie

(Plastic turned off the signature again, as it is over 3 lines, and thus not in keeping with our policies)

[Edited on 20/1/2003 by PlasticSquirrel]
Thanks for the replies ... I think I am going to enjoy this board.

Val - I thought the same thing, the battles that took place after the fall of Sauron ... Dol Guldur for example ... were barely mentioned in the book. I would like to believe that was the motive behind sending elves to Helm's Deep. Plus the fact it was really cool!
Welcome to the site Aurora, DolAmroth, Earendill and Elros. I hope you all enjoy yourself here.
Mmh, I really liked the part were elves fought in Helm's deep, for a movie it was ok, anyway I think that Haldir should have never lead that army. It should be lead by another elf shurely not him. I wonder what other surprises brings "The return of the king" movie... Dwarves at Pelennor??...

[Edited on 20/1/2003 by Namo]
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I wonder what other surprises brings "The return of the king" movie... Dwarves at Pelennor??...r
I will be posting my answer to this under ROTK spoiler alert! under Return of the King when I finish reading this thread.
I said this in "Two Towers - Great movie, but...." :

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I found the telepathic connection between Galadriel and Elrond a bit amusing I guess that was why Haldir came with his elven army from Lothlorien and said he was sendt by Elrond.

I guess PJ wanted to show that the elves also fought and died, but in the book they fight to protect the boarders of lothlorien. To awoid making two battles, he postponed Eomer and his armys arival, and put the elves in their place (so they got to fight and die a lot), and Eomer and friends took the Ents place, and the ents got more time to trash Sarumans dungeons (and PJ didn't have to make so may ents that they covered the whole battlefield and more).

And I agree, that wasn't the Faramir I imagined either..

Haldir was their leader becauce we had already met him in FOTR, intodusing (or more correctly; create) a new elven carracter just to lead the troups and tell who sendt them would be just a waste of time and 'steal' time from the more important scenes like the battle.


Me, I think he added the elves to the battle of helm's deep because he's never actually read the book and was told that they appear in places.
"I know" thounght Peter Jackson "that Haldir fellow wasn't he at the battle of Helm's Deep"
"No sir" responded Peter Jackson's assistant
"He is now, I want him with 300 Elven archers, to be sent from LothLorien by his actual lord Elrond. Make that half way through the battle he brakes in to a show tune, I feel pretty should do it nicely" replied the idiotic director.
Ross : OMG! Ha Ha Ha Smilie
Yeh somebody that appreciates me! Pary Smilie Wiggle Smilie

I felt that was worthy of me actually looking for multiple smilies.
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The reason why there are elves at Helm`s Deep, is because everybodys favourite creature in Middle-Earth is elves. so now it is more elves than one (Legolas), that means that the crowd is content with the movie.


I think he's copletely right, once again in one of PJ's endless and might i say mindless battles we see the importance of the market take over the importance of following the book.
Yeh, yet more discontent at the terrible films.
This topic makes me so furious that I can't say all that's on my mind, that would've been boring and no fun to read, that's why I have shortened it down to this:

My opinion: The Elves should never have been at Helms Deep! And: I will never, EVER forgive PJ for killing Haldir!

yeh join my PJ hate campaign Celebrian
I really dislike the fact that they used elves to fight at Helms Deep.

From a strict movie stand point, it added a bit of 'color,' if you will, to the scene. You think of elves as these wonderful and magical creatures. When backed against the Ocrs at the Deep, you can't help but root for the Good Guys a little bit more.
Good Guys= Elf Smilie
Bad Guys= Orc Smiling Smilie

It just works.
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From a strict movie stand point, it added a bit of 'color,' if you will, to the scene. You think of elves as these wonderful and magical creatures. When backed against the Ocrs at the Deep, you can't help but root for the Good Guys a little bit more.


I thought the elves were really ugly actors, I mean come on in every ones minds eye they're the mst beautiful race of people going. So to portray this the director recruits a contingent of clones with weak chins and roman noses that just don't go together at all. Maybe it's just they looked abit weird to me. At least the orcs differed as would in a race of people. It's as thought he thinks to be beautiful a race has to act and look as one, when the reality of the matter is beauty comes from diversity.
Take the Spannish people of Europe quite argueably the most beautiful people in europe because they're a blend of europian and arabian peoples.

I'm sorry I don't know what's come over me in the last few days I've become quite philosphical. Well at least I still can't spell.
I agree with Val’s assessment as to why PJ choose to bring the Elves to Helm’s Deep. I personally wasn’t happy with it, but in the overall scheme of things I can live with it. Also, I feel that for the sake of “wowing” the audience (specifically those who haven’t read the books), that PJ was trying to capitalize on the “cool” factor as well.
Elf Smilie
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He hasn't changed the story, only some details to make a better movie.


I still believe that it's the details that makes a good story.
If the details would clash with the rest of the events, the whole story would be pretty bad, right? You would concentrate at the details and just get irritated and then the whole story would be ruined. It's when the details are as thoroughly worked through as the rest of the story that it becomes good and worthy of reading.

Tolkien managed to do this excellently.

What PJ did is unforgivable. He changed the masterpiece into something that the majority of the market would like! It is as if he did the movie because of the merchandise and the money and not because he wanted to honour Tolkiens work! It's the details that makes the story, not the market!
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He hasn't changed the story, only some details to make a better movie.


WHAT ARE YOU MAD?
Unfortunately I haven't read the book so I can't be much of a dissc. but I agree with the other guys who says that Elves are most beloved creatures in LOTR so...
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I thought the elves were really ugly actors, I mean come on in every ones minds eye they're the mst beautiful race of people going. So to portray this the director recruits a contingent of clones with weak chins and roman noses that just don't go together at all.

Yeah, I thought so too!

And even though I loved the movie regardless, it would be really cool if there was a version made just for the book fans where nothing has been tampered with or as Ross might put it: hacked to pieces.
I thought the Elves were the 'most beautiful of all races' but in the movie, they are all ugly ugly ugly. And they all look like sissies (especially Haldir).

I also didn't like the Elves at Helm's Deep of course since i am a purist (pure-ist), and also not the fact that Aragorn suddenly was the Captain of those bunch of Elves.

Ah well, whatever Sad Smilie
OK, I will go with Val's hypothesis on this one, just to give PJ the benefit of the doubt.
I was disturbed at the appearance of the Elves at Helm's Deep because I felt this was Man's moment to shine.
Gandalf said: "Man's main responsibility, is to decide what to do the the time that he is given."
I think this was one of those times that Men were willing to take on the dark forces so keep Middle Earth from falling into Sauron's hands.
It was totally unnecessary to put in the Elves at Helm's Deep. They had nothing to do there, they had to fight against the forces of Dol Guldur who were attacking Lorien instead.

And what's with Haldir being sent by 'Elrond of Rivendell' ?? Total messing up of PJ that was
Virumor this is because the man is an evil crossbreed of an Hippo, Warthog and an Amoeba. Hence the terrible plot changes and the ugly actors, compared to him there extremely atractive!
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And what's with Haldir being sent by 'Elrond of Rivendell' ?? Total messing up of PJ that was


Actually, I've read about this and they had to quickly cut down a huge great scene where Elrond went down to Rivendell to talk to Galadriel, so they slammed the telepathy thing in quickly and hacked it about a bit. Wait for the extended version, it might finally make sense.
You shouldn't have to wait for an extended scenes DVD, it should be in the film to start with, better yet the guy should actually read the book and stop faffing around with the book.
Every son-in-laws dream: To have your mother-in-law reading your mind and to have her voice inside your head! Must be WONDERFULL! Big Laugh Smilie
I can sort of understand why PJ did this, but still... Elf Rolling Eyes Smilie
Well, once I accepted to the fact that elves were going to appear at Helm's Deep (pro: strengthens alliance of elves and men; con: JUST NOT RIGHT AT ALL!), I was disappointed in them. Think, these are immortal beings who have been around for centuries, and they march and fight like the star wards droids! I mean, 300 elves at Helm's Deep would have made the battle really unfair--to the orcs! But, they all die off without much notice (except poor Haldir). I mean, why bring them all the way just to die like fools? The real hero of Helm's Deep was a Dwarf! Smile Smilie
I`m sorry if you disagre, but I liked the idea of having Elves at Helm`s Deep. Don`t take me the wrong way though.
I didn't really like the adding of the elves in The Two Towers. I think Peter Jackson was just trying to add some more scenes to drag out the Helms Deep battle.
This argument, I will never understand. It had no great impact on canon and it just WORKS! I for one got goosbumps when that horn blew and those elves marched through the gate... and THAT was the point. And that the elves did not turn a blind eye to the plight of Rohan.

And I never would have thought I'd hear someone complain that the battle sequence at Helm's Deep was TOO LONG! Big Laugh Smilie

Anyway, if I said what I really think, I'd probably get stoned to death...
Hey, saying what you really think is what forums are about. For example, I think I'm coming to the point that I don't mind so much that the elves were at Helm's Deep, but rather the way in which they were portrayed when there. Elves are supposed to be cooler than that! Think 300 fighters like Legolas (only higher, right?), not 300 combat droids with bows... Elf Confused Smilie
I don't think they could have looked any cooler myself. They were marching! Would you have them moseying? Strolling? Skipping? Frolicking?!

Military precision... that's what it was.

But I'll give you this much, they really didn't need to kill them all (or did they kill them all? We really don't know, do we?)... and while I found Haldir's death scene to be quite moving and extremely well written, acted and filmed, I can definitely understand why it upsets people. Some people laughed at Haldir when he appeared in FotR... they weren't laughing in TTT. Especially when he was giving the Uruks a good *** whooping! Cool Smilie

[Edited on 2/10/2003 by ProgHead777]
Well, actually, I would have pictured elves strolling along, maybe solemnly, and not exactly frolicking, but not in perfect step and in uniform dress. I mean, yes, it's easier for the filmmakers and they looked very mysterious and all, but they let all the riders of Rohan be individuals as far as armor and such goes, yet in all the centuries of their lives, you expect me to believe that these artistic and wise beings wouldn't make their own weapons and armor, and have a bit more personality than they showed in the battle? Same in the prologue. I still think they acted like robots... Military precision wasn't invented until after the middle ages, anyway, same with uniforms, and though I know that doesn't mean too much, I just don't accept it as an excuse. Do you think you could convince an elf it was worth his time to march in step with the rest of the people he's known for thousands of years? I mean, why would they need to? I guess it looked impressive, but I still think its out of character. Plus, the rampart was too low, it was built Gimli-size if he was the only one shorter than it!
I think that the Elves would have marched in step and had military precision... I mean they've been fighting battles for many years, I'm sure they would've figured out that a controlled and uniform effort would be far more effective than everyone doing their own individual thing.
And I thought the Elves did pretty well: 300 against 10000!
The only thing that I didn't like about the Elves is that the actors/extras didn't look very Elvish to me - Elves should be more fair and beautiful.
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I don't think they could have looked any cooler myself. They were marching! Would you have them moseying? Strolling? Skipping? Frolicking?!


Moseying, or possibly sidling would have been good.

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Some people laughed at Haldir when he appeared in FotR... they weren't laughing in TTT. Especially when he was giving the Uruks a good *** whooping! Cool Smilie



I laughed, especially when he died, there was rapturous applause and hearty belly laughs coming from me then.
yeah, right... 300 men vs. 10.000 Uruk-hai's. It would be very strange if the men would win. but there came extra aid from the elves, who make it like 450 vs 10.000, and the elves are stronger than men and uruks, it is like 550 vs 10.000, and that makes a little bit more sense. (+ the good guys had the fortress, and there came some 300 riders of rohan, and they are in horse who makes it like 700 vs 10.000 plus Aragorn, Legolas and Gilmli)

[Edited on 10/2/2003 by Amon]
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Anyway, if I said what I really think, I'd probably get stoned to death...


Ladies false beards, anyone, anyone? Big Laugh Smilie

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and the elves are stronger than men and uruks


Who says, I always thought HUrin was meant to be the strongest warrior. If my memory serves me correct he was human! Cool Smilie
I agree with Arwen*Evenstar* on this one. The elves should have been marching with precision. What we must remember is there are several races of elves, and they do act differently. If it had been an army of wood elves from Mirkwood, then I would have expected them stroll into battle from the cover of the trees, dressed in greens and browns, wielding bows and no armour.

These elves, however, are from Lothlorien (or if we believe the film, perhaps from Rivendell too). That would make them Sindarin, or perhaps even Noldor. These two races, particularly the latter, would have been well trained in the arts of war and dressed in some of the best armour ever made (battle scenes from the Silmarillion describe the elven armour and weapons shining in the sun like great lights).

I think what PJ was trying to portray here, by their military precision, was they were not human. By having them dress in different (almost alien) armour to anything we have seen on our own medievil battlefields, and acting so differently to how the humans were acting, he gave us no doubt there were huge differences between human and elven cultures.

For me, it worked really well. Compared with the elves, the Rohirrim appeared primitive. That is how it should have been.
Yes, but he's a special case, isn't he, being Hurin and all... I mean, if he had been at Helm's Deep, those orcs would have been in big trouble.

Another thing is, 10,000 against 300 (or 550 if you want) in open ground would be a slaughter, but on a fortress that gives only the front rank of uruk the chance to fight, it turns into a series of more-evenly-balanced battles. And an elf is going to win one-on-one with an Uruk every time. And in the book, Eomer's household (120) defeat more than 200 while only losing 15. So, if you consider the defenders more than equal to the attackers one-on-one or even at 2-1 odds, and then if the orcs attacked on a 1000-wide front the battle would be equal (until the defenders tired--but elves don't really tire, anyway). Also, the fortress prevents the weight of the orc numbers having much effect (until they breach the wall) and since they have to climb up on ladders and attack in specific spots, you would think it wouldn't be that hard to hold out--which is what Helm's Deep is obviously for.

On the other hand, At the end of the battle, most of the Uruk-hai were still there, but most of the defenders were dead (including all signs of elves) and when Gandalf and Eomer and Aragorn and Theoden charged, the only explanation for the ease of that victory is the power of these great men, because the numbers don't add up...

I just don't think you could get all those Legolases to fight in a boring old formation, that's all. Or wear all the same stuff. Or not look to the right or left as the goose-step in. More ninja-elves, less elven stormtroopers... Tongue Smilie
Personally I thought the original story's Huorns made for a more believable ending to the battle. Happy Elf Smilie
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These elves, however, are from Lothlorien (or if we believe the film, perhaps from Rivendell too). That would make them Sindarin, or perhaps even Noldor


No the rulers of Lothlorien are of Sindarin or Noldorin origin, the masses of them inhabitants are of Avari or Nandorian descent!
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No the rulers of Lothlorien are of Sindarin or Noldorin origin, the masses of them inhabitants are of Avari or Nandorian descent!
Yes, you are quite correct here Ross. The Nandorin elves of Lorien, however, would not have appeared the same as the average Silvan elf, however. Just as the Teleri of Doriath became enriched from the knowledge (and the light of the Two Trees) of Melian and Thingol and so became Sindar, the Nandor of Lorian (who were Teleri too) would have been similarly enriched by the knowledge and light from Galadriel. These elves became the Galadrim, and would have been very different to the Silven Elves of Mirkwood for instance.

In the great battles of the First Age, the Green Elves (a branch of the Nandor) had not worn armour. The Sindar, however did. I think if it came to fighting pitched battles away from the trees, Galadriel would have had the Galadrim kitted out in armour.
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Personally I thought the original story's Huorns made for a more believable ending to the battle.


I was thinking, since we didn't actually see the end of the battle, could the huorns have been there? Maybe he'll show it at the beginning of the next film? The reason I got hopeful was a film-related "guide to TT" had a diagram of the battle including huorns. It also said that Eomer and Gandalf brought 2000 riders back with them, which makes a bit more sense, too (in reference to Amon's post). Can't wait for the extended DvD...can't they release it in summer! Elf Winking Smilie
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