Login | Register
 
Message Board | Latest Posts | Your Recent Posts | Rules

Thread: Tolkien being a prophet of Eru??

Is this discussion interesting? Share it on Twitter!

Bottom of Page    Message Board > The Author > Tolkien being a prophet of Eru??   [1] [2] >>
Why, if he received true visions, would he present them as fictitiously labelled works?
Ah, that is the beauty of the argument, if people thought he was foisting a religion on them they would reject it out right, but by passing it off as literary fiction, he was able to hook them and gather great numbers of followers, some of whom frequented websites dedicated to the furtherance of his myths. Animated Wink Smilie
No, I'm afraid for all I love the works of Tolkien, I see him as nothing more than a writer of fiction. The thing is, Tolkien was very clever with what he wrote, and he made it fit in with the contempory feel of what was fringe reality. The fact that he wrote into such depth, and cross referenced with our own world, he made Middle Earth seem almost real.

To be honest, I've spent several years actually trapped in that wold myself, but the reality of it is, his world is just a fantasy setting and nothing more. If you are actually living there, as I once was, I don't condemn you, or for that matter want to tell you you are wrong, but at the end of the day it is just a d@mned good story and nothing more (as is the bible)
Quote:
Ah, that is the beauty of the argument, if people thought he was foisting a religion on them they would reject it out right, but by passing it off as literary fiction, he was able to hook them and gather great numbers of followers, some of whom frequented websites dedicated to the furtherance of his myths.


That was a good arguement GrondyBig Smile Smilie
Now I am a open minded person myself...I have to be. But I don't think he got visions from Eru to write the tales. What if Eru got visions from Tolkien and then went on to create Middle Earth from the visions of Tolkien and its floating about somewhere just beyond Great Yarmouth. Could it be could it not be we just don't know. Maybe Aule could be right. In this world who our we to say what is fact and fiction, thats the thing we can't cause one day it could all come back and bite us on the butt and then we'd feel stupid.
Quote:
In this world who our we to say what is fact and fiction, thats the thing we can't cause one day it could all come back and bite us on the butt and then we'd feel stupid.


Good call, Darous...I feel like when it's all over, (assuming there'll be something when it's all over...haha) we'll each look around and go "Ohhh...so that's what was really going on!"
I quite agree Chika and good thoughts Darous.
There are people who think that Tolkien was under 'the divine spell' when he wrote LotR. I think that is a bit far-fetched, but then I'm not terribly religious. I think though that in a way Aule is right. There are so many parrells that can be drawn between ancient gods and the Valar and part of what Tolkien was trying to do was capture the timless feel of old myths and make them all connect to eachother. What he was trying to do and what he did, was carry on a legacy of legend. Legend and religion, I believe, are more closely related than we tend to think. Tolkien being, in a way, an heir and a reshaper of these legends can at best be described as sacred art, not specifically the way the 'divine spell' people thought of it, but simply as something that is very important to do and therefore close to people's hearts and minds.
Yeah like the Valar were gods to our ancestors at first.. but then we rejected their even excistance and started praising ONE GOD(Eru evidentially:PSmile Smilie but not all religions like Virumor told me.....do you understand what I mean?
Tolkien's world is just fiction, but still it is kind of fun to contemplate about what could have, might have, or should have been. Elk Grinning Smilie
yeah yeah yeah.....I guess people canīt believe something that seems impossible.....why can people think that Jesus was the son of God and that Muhammed was the prophet of Allah but they canīt believe that Tolkien might be a prophet......

Can someone explain this to me??
Quote:
Can someone explain this to me??


Moderator Smilie As long as they do not try to claim that any one religion is superior to another or generally try to advocate any religion.

The members of this site come from diverse backgrounds and we do not wish to offend anyone. Thanks.Moderator Smilie

Quote:
... but they canīt believe that Tolkien might be a prophet......

Can someone explain this to me??
I guess the only thing I can say is that Tolkien never claimed to be a prophet and certainly wasn't intentionaly expounding any new religion in his works, he was a practicing Roman Catholic. My comments in the previous post implying it could be so, were meant to be tongue in cheek. Happy Elf Smilie

[Edited on 16/5/2003 by Grondmaster]
This thread is probably not the correct one for me. I have a very strong faith, and believe that I could get myself in trouble here. However, I do have a few comments to make.

Most prophets claim to be prophets. Tolkien never claimed such a thing. He presented his marvelous works as fiction and as much as I would love to live in Middle Earth and wish it were all real, I do know the difference between reality and fiction. (Although, my husband would argue that all religion is fiction. He is not a believer of any faith.) A belief system is something that is very personal to each individual and no one can say what is right or wrong until it is all over. Perhaps, Chikakat’s comment
Quote:
“I feel like when it's all over, (assuming there'll be something when it's all over...ha ha) we'll each look around and go "Ohhh...so that's what was really going on!"
is correct. I think it is, and I must also have to agree with Sam,
Quote:
“There are so many parallels that can be drawn between ancient gods and the Valar and part of what Tolkien was trying to do was capture the timeless feel of old myths and make them all connect to each other. What he was trying to do and what he did, was carry on a legacy of legend. Legend and religion, I believe, are more closely related than we tend to think.”
She is correct, it is possible to see several parallels between his works and several faiths; however, Tolkien’s works are just fiction. They are beautiful and wonderful fiction, but never the less fiction. However, I will be the last person to argue, criticize or condemn another’s beliefs. (If I did so, that would make me a huge hypocrite because I live in a house with two very different belief systems.) We all have the right to believe what we want and how we want. Therefore, if one wishes to worship Eru and the Valar, as true gods then I wish you well.

Aule, I do think this is an intriguing topic and will keep following everyone’s comments; however, I will probably not make any more comments here, as I have said everything that I have to say on this topic. The posts that I have seen have been very enlightening and respectful. I hope it stays this way and no one’s feelings will be hurt. Remember we are keeping a watching eye out for everyone’s benefit here at Planet-Tolkien.


[Edited on 5/18/2003 by MelliotSandybanks]
Yes everybody....I do not intend on bad talking other religions.....itīs like this that I just think that it is POSSIBLE for Eru to be God....just as I think that it is possible that there is no God!

You see Mellie here is where the locker stands: I am no atheist but on the other hand...I am no believer.....you see? I think that it may be POSSIBLE that there is a God or multiple gods or no gods at all but just that there was this big bang a long time ago!
So do not label me for an atheist yet....neither a believer......

But thanks everyone for taking my opinions to your heart and showing YOUR opinion! Smoke Smilie
This really is absurd!
Have you done much research on Tolkien and his life?
There are many things I could say that would prove this theory wrong,but I wont even dignify your hypothesis with an answer. Smoke Smilie
Okidey....well I see this topic isnīt going as well here as it did between me and Virumor!
Quote:
Okidey....well I see this topic isnīt going as well here as it did between me and Virumor!
Don't be disheartened, Aule. In a certain state of what I shall call inebriation, myself and an unnamed friend managed to convince each other of the true reason pixies can only found on certain toadstools, and after having taken a leak on certain toadstools, why they then become magical.

Makes absolutely no sense at all to me now, but it seemed to at the time. Wink Smilie
Quote:
So do not label me for an atheist yet....neither a believer......
I am not one that likes to label anyone, and don't like it when anyone uses labels either. find your ideas very interesting Aule. I would love to have this discussion with you sometime on a one to one basis, or even with my husband around. I believe that the 2 of you would get along very well.
Quote:
(Although, my husband would argue that all religion is fiction. He is not a believer of any faith.)


Wow....I thought I would never find anyone who have thought about that! When it first occurred to me it was like three years ago....How do we know that the Koran, Bible, or any religious book for that matter are no works of fiction? (No offense to anyone or any religion) Sure, there is supposedly historical proof of it, but didn't Tolkien created a world with a history of its own? I have always entertained the notion that such religious books have its origins from fictional books who had gained such wide popularity that they formed a cult and evolved into a religion. Again....I am touching on a really sensitive subject and if I offended anyone or what they believed in, I am sorry. By the way, I do believe that they is a God or a Supreme Being though....It is the Law of Nature after all...there will always be a being of higher evolutionary level than us.
Moderator Smilie Can you all be careful your replies in this thread do not become a discussion concerning religions please. It doesn't matter how civilised they are approached, someone always finishes up getting hurt feelings... Thanks. Moderator Smilie
I know what you mean Val.....and we shall try to keep it down ok!
Good Idea,lets be careful.
I have to say, it was a intresting forum.
I just feal strongly about this.lol.
Have fun with this forum yu'all.
Yes indeed.....letīs take it a notch down.....but still keep the fire smolderingTongue Smilie
Nah....I have laid forth my theory and know the ball is in you guys court!
Well there is one post I have to reply when I am not so tired....can hardly keep my eyelids openWink Smilie Good Morning Smilie
Yes I agree with you Anilorak. I think that here we come to the question of allegory and applicability...Tolkien was, as any writer is, influenced by his own beliefs, religous and otherwise, and this showed in his writing. We may call this religous allegory of some sort, but it is really how we interpret the story. If you want to call it something from Eru, that's fine, it's how you apply it and that's what you're supposed to do with stories, apply them so they mean something to you. But I think that we should keep in mind that there is a difference between applicability and allegory: we may interpret this story to mean something but only Tolkien knows why he wrote it. We can hypothesise and that's fun, but we will never really know.

[Edited on 3/6/2003 by Samwisegamgee]
Wise words Sam!Big Smile SmilieWink Smilie
Quote:
Moderator Smilie Can you all be careful your replies in this thread do not become a discussion concerning religions please. It doesn't matter how civilised they are approached, someone always finishes up getting hurt feelings... Thanks. Moderator Smilie


Heh....sorry about that Val...I will not do it again and I wanna add once again that Tolkien of course wrote from his own experience and beliefs....whereas would he get his ideas and inspirations from?
I don't personally belive that Tolkien was a prophet of a religion, but then again I'm not saying he's not. People find meaning where they can. To discredit and redicule Aule's idea that Tolkein was a prophet, is to discredit and redicule every religion past and pressent. Do we actually have the true words written by both Jesus and Mohamed, No. The supposed gospel of Jesus was classed as heresy by the vatican and the only gospels that stand are the gospels written by his disciples. Mohamed was illiterate and the Koran was written down for him by his followers. Either way they are both secondary accounts and as such possible to be biased by peoples veiws. Do we discredit them. No because that would be ignorant.

So we let everyone belive what they want to belive. Aule isn't hurting anyone, he isn't argueing that he is right and that everyone else is wrong. He just asked yet some of the responses on here actually make me feel shame towards the people for their quick to critism answers!
I agree with you Ross and am sorry if you thought I was one of those who was quick to critise, that was not my aim...Aule, I think you asked a very interesting question. I just like the stuff that comes out of your head. Wink Smilie However, I don't think that your question really has a solid answer. That's what's so fun about it! I have really enjoyed reading everyone's response here, I especially like what you said before Mad. Though I can see how this topic can be offending to people, we are however only hypothesising here, I don't believe anything that's said here true or untrue and don't think any of the posters meant to make a distinction.
This is a Wonderfull topic. Aule, I thank you for bring it it up. Myself, I believe that I know the difference between the real world and fiction, but I am also fascinated by the concept generated by the use of 2 words in conjunction: "What if..."

Please forgive me while I wax philosophic. See, I consider myself a man of Faith. I believe. In a Divine Being. In my Soul and the Souls of others. But my faith is all encompassing of most others. Shamanic, Jewish, Christian, Islamic, Eastern, Norse, Greek and many more. I have studied camparitive religion and have cotemplated studying the Ministry.

Now, there is a thing that I read years ago that has always influenced my POV. It was Roger Zelazny's Amber Chonicles, a 5 book series starting with Nine Princes in Amber and ending with the Courts of Chaos. In these books we are given the incredible Idea of infinite realities. Where anything that can be imagined is possble. Where there are realities next to each other where only one thing is different or realities distant apart where things are radically different and all those spaces in between.

What if... What if it were true? What if somewhere in the exspances beyond our time and space there was or still is a Middle Earth? An Eru, with an Arda, Valar, Elves, Ents, Hobbits and all of the rest of it...

What if... at one time there were was a Tir Na Nog, in Ireland, long ago.. but the Tuatha De Nann felt threatened and left this realm of men for a different world, where the old ways still lingered... And what if there was or still is an Olympus and an Asgard and a Nirvana?

I don't clain to know anything. I like to read and to think and I like to believe. I don't say that this is true or that I would die defending this thought. But... What if if could be true? Or if everything was true? Out there... beyond the Veil... Beyond the depths of Time and Space. Beyond the narrow confines of this world. Would that just be cool?
Thanks for the support and compliments Ross and Sam.....And Glorfinel.....I understand what you mean....

Still I didnīt want to step on anyones toes.....just wanted to see if here was anyone who thought that this might be possible.....And if I can say this much.....why say what is TRUE??? the truth is to follow your OWN beliefs.....If you believe in the Koran and Islam then hey thatīs good for you...you have found your reason of being here..but do not say that YOUR religion is the TRUE!! that is from person to person to decide........

And why I started this thread is because I am trying to build my opinion on WHY are we here?, HOW we were created? and Is there an AFTERLIFE???

I fear death because I do not yet know what will happen then......before I didnīt when I was a little child.....I was mormon before but some principals I didnīt concurr with.....so I left.....and then I started to fear the dark.....

I am trying to live a happy life.....and I wish for people to accept that I MIGHT think that everything or pieces of what Tolkien wrote is true......not even Tolkien said: No are you stupid?!? Itīs fiction!!!!

But as long as the books brings happiness then I think he does not mind.....
Quote:
I just wanted to see if here was anyone who thought that this might be possible.
Quote:
What if it were true? What if somewhere in the expances beyond our time and space there was or still is a Middle Earth
However infantasmally small the chance of something like Middle Earth occurring for real is, given a universe composed of infinite space and time, the laws of probability predict anything can happen. Indeed, given infinite time, both ahead of us and behind us (and don't quote me the 13 billion years since the Big Bang, because time still existed before this point), it is almost certain that Middle Earth has existed some time in our past, and will occur again in our future. Also, given infinite space, it seems likely that there is a Middle Earth out there somewhere right now, and possibly many of them.
Quote:
Also, given infinite space, it seems likely that there is a Middle Earth out there somewhere right now, and possibly many of them.
And in one of these Sauron won the war because Sam, wearing the One Ring and trying sneak back down the stairs from Cirith Ungol to the Morgul Vale, was caught by the Nazgul.

While in another, a most boring place, Isildur heeded Elrond's plea and fed the One Ring to Orodruin.

And still in another Melkor changed his spots and was visited by men, dwarves, and elves where he served them lemonade and cookies (biscuits if you will) and they all got on fabulously, much to the detriment of the reading public. Elf With a Big Grin Smilie

In an infinite universe, everything is possible, just highly improbable--and I may be wrong about the latter depending on the definition of is. Elf Sticking Tounge Out Smilie
I love your thoughts Val and Glorfinel. I tend to think that as humans we are both terribly imaginative and too narrow-minded. In our minds we are startled by the limitless possiblities there are in the universe...but we also tend to not believe what we cannot see. I think it would be extremly hard, nearly impossible really, to reconcile these points of view. To think that there might be something out there...and to think at the same time: it's not proven, it is only guesswork...to think this way, on a large scale, it is just mind-numbing. It's so much easier to pick either one or the other and I find that's what most people do.
One thing I find extremly frightening about the time we live in is that we seem to be getting closer and closer to finding out answers to many of these 'impossible' questions, mainly through science. Before, when it was just our thoughts, when it was just our religions and our opinions explaining things, it was easier to say: I think this, another person thinks this, that's okay. But now that you have scientists giving us concrete answers to think, it's much harder to say: they may be wrong, and it's also harder to say: I may be right or wrong. And are the answers scientists give us 'true'? There are so many definitions of truth. In the practical plane, we can say, yes, they are true, there is evidence. But I don't think that satisfies us completly, I know it doesn't satisfy me.
On the other hand, if for example astronouts found out there was indeed another universe with Middle Earth, or the Tautha Da Danaan...then I would think: so here is evidence of what so many humans have thought and known in the depths of their minds for so many years. The Norse mythology did have Nine Worlds.
Quote:
I tend to think that as humans we are both terribly imaginative and too narrow-minded. In our minds we are startled by the limitless possiblities there are in the universe...but we also tend to not believe what we cannot see.


That is quite true, Samwisegamgee, we are both terribly imaginative and too narrow-minded. However being narrow-minded is one of the ways that we cope with life. Narrow-mindedness have been developed since we were young. In case you are not convinced, here is an example: Have you ever be annoyed with little kids asking why this and why that? Have you ever felt contempt for their lack of knowledge? The problem doesn't lie with the little kiddies but with us. We, thinking that we have seen and experienced the world feel that we are superior to them, but are we really? Are we really better than them or have we just grown narrow-minded? Do we really know how all things work in this world? Do we know how does a plane fly, how does our minds work? We grow narrow-minded to hide our inadequate knowledge and abilities. Can you imagine living life on Earth with fear in your hearts and doubts in your mind? That will be thr consequence if you do not become narrow-minded.

About imagination, we humans do have a vivid one but we tend to shy away from it usually because of the possibilities it might present. There are infinite possibilities and if we fully embrace them it would destroy us completely. In my opinion, our minds will be unable to handle it and our ego too. Our minds being unable to grasp such a reality might be pretty self-explanatory as it would render the logic system we developed in our lives obsolete. But pride is mostly what gets in our way. Imagine a place where humans are not superior but instead we are infidels who works as slaves or are just cattle for food? Wouldn't that give you a jolt to your system? Would you really wanna live in such a world? That is why our minds reject it as impossible but is it really?
You have raised some excellent points Mad. Thinking about it, I agree with you.
I find it startling and frightening that in this day and age, we do know so much about the world...not each one of us personally, as you pointed out...but humankind as a majority. What will the world be when we know everything about it? Of course, I do not believe we really could know everything, but we are getting pretty darn close in some areas. I wish we could just back away, just be content with what knowledge we have right now, because I think that constant learning will diminish so much. And I don't think we really can back away, it's something human to want to know, to want to be superior, to want to know more and more because then we will be...'I think therefore I am'.
I agree that thought without barriers is too much for our system. But I also think it is good for us, we think we are so superior, we have so much pride, as you pointed out, we really need something every once in awhile to jolt us back to reality and show us we really are vulnerabe. Thought itself is so interesting and so complex. I think that in one way thought is our problem as humans, or maybe I just speak for myself...we analyze everything to death, we get so caught up in finding the answers. And then we start thinking about the concept of thought, and we really lose the larger picture. I think that a large part of human identity is thought and that will always leave us with a sense of failing because we can never know everything.

[Edited on 14/6/2003 by Samwisegamgee]
... You probaly think " Then why does she keep coming back to this thread?!",caz I am loving to hear what people say,even if I think its wrong.Though I do agree on some points.

Samwise, I guess me and my family are some of the most open minded people caz we have faith in God. ... I dont bother to confuse my mind with more nonsense stuff.

Moderator Smilie I'm sorry, but this not being a thread on comparative religions, I had to chop a lot out of this post even though I personaly agree with most of what was said here, some members wouldn't, and we don't want any religious arguments here. Moderator Smilie

[Edited on 14/6/2003 by Grondmaster]
Anilorak: Dont worry so much about it being a 'Banned'topic,have fun while it lasts Wink Smilie

.....

Moderator Smilie Grondy was very much here too! Moderator Smilie


[Edited on 14/6/2003 by Grondmaster]
Quote:
Doesn't this thread fall under one of the 'Banned' topics??
Moderator Smilie It was skirting the bounds of being banned before by not being of this world; however, some of you have started bringing personal beliefs and the right and wrongness of those beliefs which is where religious discussion sends some people off in a Huff. (the 1937 4-door Phaeton was a nice model of Huff in which to drive or ride.) As we would rather keep everyone happy, we have banned religion and politics from our discussion except as practiced in Middle-earth.

Therefore I have edited a few of the last posts to bring them back within the bounds. Moderator Smilie
Good on you Grondo!

Quote:
'I think therefore I am'.
Teach it phenomenology. Wink Smilie
Quote:
No, I'm afraid for all I love the works of Tolkien, I see him as nothing more than a writer of fiction. The thing is, Tolkien was very clever with what he wrote, and he made it fit in with the contempory feel of what was fringe reality. The fact that he wrote into such depth, and cross referenced with our own world, he made Middle Earth seem almost real.

To be honest, I've spent several years actually trapped in that wold myself, but the reality of it is, his world is just a fantasy setting and nothing more. If you are actually living there, as I once was, I don't condemn you, or for that matter want to tell you you are wrong, but at the end of the day it is just a d@mned good story and nothing more (as is the bible)


right you are. i agree.it is only a story that is deep.[but a VERY good story. Smile Smilie ]
I see your point Val, and I have to agree that it sure is a grand book but then again I just love starting these wierd topics and get a discussion goingBig Smile Smilie it is alot of fun......and it is interesting to hear what people think......I just thought that the Valar couldīve represented the norse gods as well as the greek and roman and egyptian gods......well...if people think that this religion is crap and that is good...well I couldnīt care less....but to tell someone that THIS is true and not THAT....itīs just wrong..because the truth is actually inside everyone of us to seek....if you see where Iīm going with this? There is no general truth....there is only individual truth when it comes to these matters.....


That is my opinion and I always enjoy sharing them with you guysWink Smilie

Ta-ta!
I have to point out one more thing: I wasnīt intending to force people to try and think that this may be possible...just wanted to attract people who likes to theorize(is that even a word?! hehehe) about stuff like Tolkien being a prophet of Eru....so please donīt go in here and think I am some crazy buffoon who worships Eru and has a shrine for him and the ValarTongue Smilie
As Val said: The chances are remote that this is true but given infinite time the theory of propability will say that EVERYTHING could have, can be or can happen to exist.

And donīt come here and say that itīs just a good book nothing more and nothing less because what harm does it to you if a certain person(letīs take this Vala for an example Wink Smilie ) believes that there could be a possibility that Tolkien got visions from Eru and wrote them down... this does not make the books less....because nothing can....itīs simply the best books Iīve ever read.

What else are we here to do? Hypothyse(donīt know how to spell it) and live!

So if Iīve made any sense(which I actually doubt since sometimes I donīt know what I write after a while(hence all the short posts and not big ones) and now I will stop writing)

Ta-ta!
Quote:
What else are we here to do? Hypothyse(donīt know how to spell it) and live!
Quite right. Hypothesising is always good. I've enjoyed discussing your theory, even if it is impossible (which it isn't). Keep theorising. Big Smile Smilie
String theory tells us their are an infinite number of parallel universes and I'm sure in at least one of them Tolkien is a Prophet of Uru. He doesn't appear to be one in this universe, but that doesn't mean he couldn't be one in others. Maybe a true prophet in one, a false prophet in another, and various shades in between in others.
If there is an infinite number of universes, the Tolkien is a prophet in an infinite number of them. Kinda gives you a headache thinking about it, doesn't it?
Sort of like looking in a mirror looking in at yourself looking in a mirror looking at yourself looking in a mirror ...
I fear I must have my say in this as well.

I believe that what Aule said COULD be possible. As he mentioned the mutli-gods of other religions, I must mention Christianity, and I do not wish to offend my christian brothers and sisters, I only wish to say what I think. As Aule mentioned the fact that the Valar could be the gods mentioned in the polytheistic religions, so could the whole LOTR triology be the true account of what is told in the Bible. Or at least some twisted retelling of a tale not yet recorded. Think about it:
The Elves are Angels. That would make the Orcs and fouler creatures the Demons. And as Orcs were originally Elves, so were Demons originally Angels. Sauron or Morgoth would obviously parellel Satan and Eru, God. The wars between the Elves and Orcs could be the war between the Angels and Demons as Satan wages war against God. Men in LOTR would represent the humans in our world that are aware of the war and do all they can to help stop it. Hobbits and some of the people of the Western world would be the innocents that don't realize what's going on. Dwarves could be the people who see what's going on but do nothing as they are too sellfish, though I do not know where that fits in here. Sadly, I must leave you all now. My father requires the computer. Good-bye for now, and I apologize if I've offended anyone with what I've said. Namarie
If this theory is true wouldn't there be an article or something on the news about this by now??? In my opinion I think J.R.R. Tolkien was just a very imaginative and creative person who put alot of time and effort into making his books. If you write a story and put it to the side more and more ideas to add just keep popping up in your brain, trust me it always happens to me in english class. But I'm not trying to write and publish a book, J.R.R. Tolkien was so he added in those details and eventually came up with some fabulous books. And Aule about people not beliving you is probably because this is the first time the've been introduced to this and they've been thinking of J.R.R. Tolkien as a fiction writer that they won't let anything else into their minds or give any other theores a chance.

[Edited on 6/12/2003 by HobbitHomie05]

[Edited on 6/12/2003 by HobbitHomie05]
I wouldn't use the newsmedia as a discriminant of truth and fiction. In my experience the media today are not too bothered with keeping to the truth anymore. If it is a selling story they print it, regardless. Looking too closely into a good story might reveal it not to be true, and therefore checking background is an action to be avoided! Fast Asleep Smilie


As I have not read that much of the master, *ducking, expecting hard, inanimate objects to be thrown at me*, I feel I don't have too much to contribute with, but.. When reading Silmarillion recently, I had the same thoughts as Mariesthrill. Also it struck me how similar the book was in form to the norse saga-litterature. The moral guidelines of the early elves also seem to be very similar to that of the early vikings. A lot of killing, and a very strong emphasis(spelling?) on family ties. Your moral obligations was first and foremost to your family and tribe, not guided by universal moral principles as the monotheistic religious moral in later european culture. (I'm counting America and Australia ++ to Europe here) That Tolkien had an extensive knowledge of history and mythology is self-evident to any reader of his books. The naming of places, people etc., alone reveals that.

My point is, finally Wink Smilie , that when Tolkien created his own world and his own ancient history, he to some extent followed the general pattern of human development seen in our world, or at least the northern european part of it. It is impossible to view european culture separate from christianity, as it has played such a dominant role in the past ~1000 years. Also in Tolkiens life. It could have been quite impossible for him to create a world in wich the elements that shaped ours where not present, at least in one form or another. God, satan, angels, deamons, trolls and scary things in the dark woods and deep waters.. Whether these things exists or not is not really that important (from a historical viewpoint), the fact that people really believed in them shaped their actions and thus history as we know it.
  [1] [2] >>