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Thread: Ghosts who can kill???

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Bottom of Page    Message Board > The Return of the King > Ghosts who can kill???   [1] [2] >>

In the movie it has been shown as if the Host of the Dead is actually fighting and slaying the orcs and the southrons. as far as i remember, the ghosts can do no physical harm to anyone , they merely create great fear in the hearts of mortal folks.
that's true, and the same thing happens in the ROTK video game

It's a conspiricey I tell you!!!
u hit the nail on its head Vilyon ! thats my point. Orc With Thumbs Up Smilie
Interesting observation. The way Tolkien wrote it can leave it to interpretation, sort of.....
From: Return of the King/The Last Debate

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But Aragorn halted and cried with a great voice: ďNow come! By the Black Stone I call you!Ē And suddenly the Shadow Host that had hung back at the last came up like a grey tide, sweeping all away before it. Faint cries I heard, and dim horns blowing, and a murmur as of countless far voices: it was like the echo of some forgotten battle in the Dark Years, long ago. Pale swords were drawn; but I know not whether their blades would still bite, for the Dead needed no longer any weapon but fear. None would withstand them.

I agree that fear was really the "weapon" used but it would seem that swords were drawn and the possibility of their use makes for a better visual then men just turning and fleeing and jumping into the river. And clearly the Shadow Men were not sea sick green but grey. Again, I think the purpose was just to make for better and more clear visuals. However, I have to admit that the scene was disappointing.

I really love this quote from the book:
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Strange and wonderful I thought it that the designs of Mordor should be overthrown by such wraiths of fear and darkness. With its own weapons was it worsted!

Amazing!
But don't you think it was also yuk how they did the Dead as green rotting corpses wearing armour?
I was a little disappointed with the way the Army of the Dead was portrayed in the film too. I felt like PJ and Co. could have done a better job. However, that said, I still thought visually the Dead still looked pretty cool in the film. My biggest gripe is probably the manner in which they were used in battle at the Pelennor, and I wish the Black Stone scene from the book would have been included (maybe on the SEE DVD?).
Elf Smilie
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My biggest gripe is probably the manner in which they were used in battle at the Pelennor,


I didn't like that either. You'd just watched half the menfolk from Rohan die in a battle to save mankind from the tyranny of Sauron, just to have an undead army arrive on the scene and do the job in a few minutes. It left me wondering why the Rohirrim had bothered. It totally devalued their own sacrifice. It also left Aragorn having to give Gimli a half baked excuse why they couldn't go and do the same job to the rest of Mordor.
Yes, especially when the Dead had already fulfilled their promise and had been released at Pelargir. They weren't even on the black ships at the Harlond. Aragorn's army was made up of the released slaves from the ships and those Gondorians he was able to recruit in Pelargir after the Corsairs had been drowned when they jumped from their ships in fright, as the Dead came aboard. Teacher Smilie
Right Grondy, I hadn't thought of that.

I liked the dead in the movie but they did seem more like ghouls than restless spirits. If they were the shades of their former bodies I don't think they would be all rotting with their bones hanging out. They would have been ghosts, all grey not green.
I'm sorry - I read this thread as Goats who can kill and was very intrigued but ultimately disappointed.

I have to say I didn't particularly like the way the Dead Army swept through everything. Now about these goats....?
Hee hee - you'll find they've all run away, Vee. I wanted to see the slaves go at it on the Pelennor Fields, not the spirits!!! So there's my input. Big Smile Smilie
And I wanted to see goats!
I really thought the Dead army looked cool, but you are right that the Dead couldnt actually fight like they did in the movie. I was also disappointed that no Black Numenoreans were shown. (If anyones wondering, the difference is that Corsairs are just the pirates of the South i.e. commoners, whereas the Black Numenoreans are actually the descendents of the men of Numenor/ the followers of Ar-Pharazon). I had this really great idea of what they looked like and then they werent featured in the movie!! Got The Blues Smilie So Angry Smilie
Part of the reason i created Aelric as a black numenorean in the Straight Road is for just this reason... I loved the banter between Gandalf and the Mouth of Sauron at the Black gate in the book adding so much drama to the final clash - the Mouth of Sauron smug, haughty, overconfident & Gandalf measured in his responses yet his wit curbed by a fool's hope, desperate and therefore dangerous, it should have been included! and as for the omission of the defeat of the Corsairs at Pelagir - Scandalous!!!

The Deadmen of Dunharrow had no right being on the fields of Pelennor in the first place, And as for the Goat-Riders of Khand - menacing, fearsome and they could undoubtedly kill.............. or else eat everything in sight, the unsung heroes of the clean-up operation post-War of the Ring!

Thumbs Up Smilie
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the Mouth of Sauron smug, haughty, overconfident & Gandalf measured in his responses yet his wit curbed by a fool's hope, desperate and therefore dangerous, it should have been included! and as for the omission of the defeat of the Corsairs at Pelagir - Scandalous!!!


Well you should be delighted to know that most likely, both of those will be included on the SEE of RotK! Super Wow Smilie
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My biggest gripe is probably the manner in which they were used in battle at the Pelennor,


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I didn't like that either. You'd just watched half the menfolk from Rohan die in a battle to save mankind from the tyranny of Sauron, just to have an undead army arrive on the scene and do the job in a few minutes. It left me wondering why the Rohirrim had bothered. It totally devalued their own sacrifice. It also left Aragorn having to give Gimli a half baked excuse why they couldn't go and do the same job to the rest of Mordor.


Can I just say I entirely agree with this? I liked the ghosts in the film, but this really really bothered me.

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I'm sorry - I read this thread as Goats who can kill and was very intrigued but ultimately disappointed.


ROFL! Big Laugh Smilie
About the Mouth of Sauron.

When Aragorn comes riding back to his army from the Black Gate you can see blood on his sword. It is east to see that PJ cut out whatever killing took place.

Watch out for those goats!
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About the Mouth of Sauron.

When Aragorn comes riding back to his army from the Black Gate you can see blood on his sword. It is east to see that PJ cut out whatever killing took place.


Yup, you're right about that Stony! I believe that Iíve mentioned that as well in THE ROTK SEE DVD THREAD. Elf Winking Smilie
And will the Goat of Sauron be in it, then? After all, Mt Doom was filmed in the mountains...or whatever.
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Yup, you're right about that Stony! I believe that Iíve mentioned that as well in THE ROTK SEE DVD THREAD.

I'm gonna help mr Stony out here and make a link for you all to click on and see for yourself. THE ROTK SEE DVD THREAD Smile Smilie
It's there Fea, I just tried it, and it worked like a charm! Thanks for that Amarie! Elf Winking Smilie
I did; I clicked on it and it worked. It is the underlined bit just in front of the Smilie.
I have a question.
Doesn't the un-dead army in the movie not kill people, but suck the souls out of them?
I read that somewhere but i can't seem to find the book or website anymore.
I believe that Tolkien wrote that it was the fear of the dead that drove Sauron's forces away. I don't think there ever was a mention of any souls being sucked out.
About six pages into the RotK chapter, 'The Last Debate', Legolass and Gimli recounted to the Hobbits outside the Houses of Healing, of their journey to Pelargir and the battle there. In answer to your question, no, no souls were sucked there, for Tolkien wrote Gimli as saying:
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'... Pale swords were drawn; but I know not whether their blades would still bite, for the dead needed no longer any weapon but fear. None would withstand them.'

'To every ship they came that was drawn up, and they passed over the water to those that were anchored; and all the mariners were filled with a madness of terror and leaped overboard, save the slaves chained to the oars. Reckless we rode among our fleeing foes, driving them like leaves, until we came to the shore. And then to each of the great ships that remained Aragorn sent one of the Dunedain, and they comforted the captives that were aboard, and bade them put aside their fear and be free.'
Our two friends went on to recount, that after Aragorn had said "the 'Oath' was fulfilled" and the Dead had vanished, that the men of Southern Gondor came and filled the ships for their up-coming battle that was to take place at Minas Tirith the next morning.
Gosh I have to wonder did anyone who saw the movies read the books? I don think so. First off, the Oath-Breakers only helped Aragorn destroy the ships of pirates to fufill their oaths as you might know. BUT they did not do any fighting whatsoever at or near Minas Tirith. Please look up these questions in the books before asking.
~Celebrimbor
I I thought that was what I was saying in my post just before Celebrimbor's? Elf Confused Smilie
True, Grondy, true. I also notice the original question about the soul-sucking was also asked about the MOVIES. Well, I didn't see no material saying there was any soul-sucking, and I didn't think it looked like soul-sucking to me in the movies. So I don't know where the soul-sucking came from.
The only qution I have is why didn't arwen have to chose to be elf or human when she was 20 or something?
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The only qution I have is why didn't arwen have to chose to be elf or human when she was 20 or something?

When Arwen was 20, the world was too young as they say. The only period of dilemma arrived when she fell in love with Aragorn. She could marry him only if she remained behind in Middle-Earth as a human. And that did not happen when she was in her tweens!

And also, you should post your qestions in a relevannt thread. Your question is out-of-place in this thread since it does not bear to the topic. Keep that in mind the next time!
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And also, you should post your qestions in a relevannt thread. Your question is out-of-place in this thread since it does not bear to the topic. Keep that in mind the next time!


Sorry i was going to ask a question about ghosts but i forgot it then i forgot that i wasnt in the prancing pony inn.
Bad boy Halica.... You've only been here a few weeks, and already you're causing trouble Ha Ha Ha Smilie
Just like his dad......
Are you always that nice to the Newbies, LA86? Very Big Grin Smilie

Don't worry, Halica, your Dad is not the only one watching out for you...and watching you, for that matter, so behave yourself! LOL Big Laugh Smilie

Regarding the Undead-Dead Army, i.m.h.o., their "killing" at the Pelennor Fields battle was completely unnecessary on PJ's part. Had he given proper credit for the last downfall of Sauron's Army at P.Fields to the Southern Gondorions and slaves from the ships, then that would have been climactic as well. In fact, more so, because as in life, truth is much more interesting than fiction(now that is a sticky thing, considering we are pondering fiction; but being that the movies are based on someone else's sole creation, PJ should have stuck to the "reality" or "truth" of Tolkien's work instead of creating an alternate "fiction"...Does that make any sense?)...besides, if ghosts can kill, then Poltergeist is wayyyyyyy scarier now!

No! Not the Devil-head-thing from Poltergeist!!!!!!! No! Super Scared Smilie
Well we didn't even see the Undead Army kill anything. They just swarmed over ten thousands of Orcs, Easterlings and Haradrim and suddenly in the next scene there was no one of Sauron's army left?!

And i mean, how can they kill? Their only weapon is supposed to be fear. I didn't see Sauron's entire army flee into random directions either.

At least in the books, the good guys have to work for it.

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Well we didn't even see the Undead Army kill anything. They just swarmed over ten thousands of Orcs, Easterlings and Haradrim and suddenly in the next scene there was no one of Sauron's army left?!
Yup, me thinks PJ just got his script pages mixed up and he thought the undead were Treebeard's Huorns below Helm's Dike. Elf With a Big Grin Smilie
The Army of the Dead just didn't do it for me. I felt as if there was an over-reliance on them to ensure victory at the Pelennor Fields.

I would have much preferred Aragorn releasing many captive Gondorians so that they provided human reinforcements to the battle. This would have shown his growing authority and majesty, and would have been a more convincing reason for him to assume the Crown.

Instead, we have a green wave of skeletal forms who just completely overrrun the Armies of Sauron in a matter of minutes.

In addition, there just seemed to be too much comic-relief humour that detracted from the atmosphere that should have been created: Gimli's (yet again!) baffoonery, Aragorn's swagger etc.
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I would have much preferred Aragorn releasing many captive Gondorians so that they provided human reinforcements to the battle.

Aah, you mean that Aragorn should have searched for the heads of the prisoners which the orcs catapulted over the Walls of Minas Tirith and them put them back on the repective bodies and then read the "Book of the Dead" ( borrowed from the Egyptian mythology ) and thus create a new army? And if not, what Gondorian captives are you talking about?

The only thing I liked about the dead army is when Legolas shot an arrow through the Dead King's head andit passed clean through. And I thought the dead army was green because they were seasick after travelling in the boats of theCorsairs! Were they not?
I am tallking about the scene in the book when Gimli explains the journey of the Grey Company after they entered the Paths of the Dead. It is clearly stated that Aragorn released many prisoners from the ships of the Corsairs and many people of Pelargir, seeing that help came to them, joined Aragorn on his way to Minas Tirith.
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It is clearly stated that Aragorn released many prisoners from the ships of the Corsairs and many people of Pelargir, seeing that help came to them, joined Aragorn on his way to Minas Tirith.


The Southern fiefs of Gondor had sent far fewer men to the defence of Minas Tirith than had been hoped for because the threat the Corsairs posed. While the corsair fleet was poised to raid southern Gondor they could not strip their own defences to assist Minas Tirith. Once Aragorn had used the undead army to eradicate the Corsair threat, however, they were free to help Minas Tirith. They boarded the Corsair ships which Aragorn had captured and sailed up-river to the Harlond.
Bah. Im much more simple than you guys. I think the ghosts sucked becasue of 4 things:
1.They were green
2.They were the only reason why they good guys won the fight (and that made the whole fight look kinda...less epic that it was, or maybe they made it too easy)
3.They could kill (or swarm or.....whatever the heck they do)
4.And they were green
They were green??? I don't remember that. Maybe it were those green slimy ghosts from "Ghost Busters"?

Are you sure you weren't wearing green lenses? :-P
I think it was all a bit too complex for PJ to display it all properly. I mean, the movie is already long enough, and he has to introduce the un-dead-armie, then the corsairs, then the southern Gondorians who went with Aragorn to Minas Tirith etc. For the sake of the length of the movie PJ just stuck with only the ghosts.

But wasn't it possible to do a voice over for the battles. To show a map of the regions and symbolic representations of the armies involved and a voice over telling what the strategic positions are, not only at Minas Tirith, but also why the Rohirrim were late, why the southern Gondorians couldn't send that much warriors etc. That would have clarified a lot. And it would be easier to have the southern Gondorians come with the corsairs instead of the dead army.
it is strange, dead killing the live. how can something that cannot be harmed do so much harm. ghoat only raom to cause fear in others. fear is their ultimate power.
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it is strange, dead killing the live. how can something that cannot be harmed do so much harm.

I reckon you didn't see Poltergeist or Wishmaster ?
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I think it was all a bit too complex for PJ to display it all properly. I mean, the movie is already long enough, and he has to introduce the un-dead-armie, then the corsairs, then the southern Gondorians who went with Aragorn to Minas Tirith etc. For the sake of the length of the movie PJ just stuck with only the ghosts.


I don't think, that PJ thought, that this is too complex. Hey, there were Elves in Helm's Deep. He just had to show how the Southern Gondorians are fighting against the Corsairs. In the middle of the Fight, Aragorn and his Dead Army take part and defeat the enemy. Aragorn then declared that the oath is fulfilled and lead the Southern Gondorians to Minas Tirith.

The worst thing with the "undeads" fighting in Minas Tirith is for me, that PJ presents us the race of Men (resp. the "good" Men) once more as a race of weaklings. While in the books Men alone defeated Sauron's Army, in the movie they need an army of undeads.pffff.......

In my meaning, PJ wanted to show the special work of his special-effect-making-company.
They were utterly laughable and out of place; never were they supposed to be bright green, and they definitely didn't belong on the fields of Pelennor. They made the sacrifice of thousands of Men look useless and in vain.
Who said that ghosts cannot harm a human? The ones that do interact with humans , or so I have read are just demons and often they appear friendly until they have you into things that allow them to harm you.
But back to the story. I was really disappointed in the dead army visually. They just did not look the least bit frightening and the way that Aragorn acted they should have equalled in fearsomeness to his dread, well and Gimli's at first.
I thought, if anything they could have used a prosthetic nose or two and some color balancing foundation followed by some sheer powder. It works wonders. Big Smile Smilie
Well, i thought the shadow army was well done. Maybe i am the only one who seems to think so...
I was satisfied with the physical, er...ethereal form, they might have been better in blue rather than green, but I suppose a blue screen was involved and they wouldn't show up. What I didn't like was their arriving at Harlond and making their last battle there, instead of just at Pelargir.
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