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It was nice how they put Arwen's son in the movie, but it was not needed. In the begining of the movie when Arwen and Aragorn was standing on the bridge she said she would become mortal for him. Then the rest of the movies goes and makes the relatonship all complicated. By Arwens not going and she is she's not going and she is. Arwen is not going, everone who read the books knew she was not going. It just made me mad all the did that.
~Irima-arwen
Not much is said about their son except his name, Eldarion, and that he succeeded Aragorn. The film used him as a ploy to get her to change her mind about leaving blah blah which we know she wasn't going to anyway....

One thing that does intrigue me is that she
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became as a mortal woman and yet it was not her lot to die until all that she had gained was lost.
(Appendix A)

I take this to mean that her husband, family, friends are all dead (or those closest to her) because her life would still be longer (I thought) than ordinary mortals.

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Then she said farewell to Eldarion, and to her daughters, and to all whom she had loved; and she went out from the city of Minas Tirith....
(Appendix A)

Does this imply that she had already seen them grow and die or were these people, her children and those she loved, still alive? I can't see a mother willingly leaving her children to run of and die in the wilderness?
I don't remember if they said Arwen's son in the book. But i was interestead in Arwen's and Aragorn's story and in the back of the ROTK it had a pretty short story of them, the begining and the ending. It is a sad story. Arwen is not the first to give up her immortality, there was Beren and Luthien, who is realated to Arwen and Aragorn. But Arwen dieing would not be a suprise to her because giving up her immortality she new she wold die. Also when putting Eowyn in the story of them more than she should of been, it appeared the t Aragorn liked her, and finally at the end he told her that he did not like her. If they would of just left Aragorns and arwens story to how the book but it, wouldn't of been as complicated as they put it.
~Irima-Arwen
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Does this imply that she had already seen them grow and die or were these people, her children and those she loved, still alive? I can't see a mother willingly leaving her children to run of and die in the wilderness?


From Appendix A, RotK

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"Not before my time," he answered. "for if I will not go now, then I must soon go perforce. And Eldarion our son is a man full-ripe for kingship."


I think after being with Aragorn for 120 years it is reasonable to assume their children were adults when Aragorn died and Arwen left for Lorien. Eldarion is described as a man full-ripe for kingship. To me, that implies he is old enough to be considered wise, but not old (by Numenorian standards).
I have a question did Aragorn want to die because the book said he just started feeling old.

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...yet at last he felt the approach of old age and knew that the span of his life-days was drawing to an end...

Bit confused here. When Arwen left to go into the wilderness(and die). She must of known that her son was ready to take over the throne, because if he wasn't then she wouldn't of left. What book said Aragorn was old, and why would he die because a book said he was old. I probley didn't understand it right. ~Irima-Arwen
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Bit confused here. When Arwen left to go into the wilderness(and die). She must of known that her son was ready to take over the throne, because if he wasn't then she wouldn't of left. What book said Aragorn was old, and why would he die because a book said he was old. I probley didn't understand it right

After Aragorn died, that was in the year 120 IV. Arwen then went to Lothlorien, lived there alone for one year and finally laid herself to rest on the hill of Cerin Amroth. Aragorn wasn't really old when he died (208 years i think), although older than anyone else in Middle-Earth but not compared to former Numenorean Kings, but he chose to die because he felt his old age come... had he chosen to stay for awhile, he would have grown old and decripit.

All this you can read in the Appendices of LOTR, 'the tale of Aragorn and Arwen'. The appendices are normally included with ROTK, but not always...

Concerning Eldarion, apart from a son Arwen and Aragorn also had 5 daughters, whose names JRRT never mentioned.
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Then she said farewell to Eldarion, and to her daughters, and to all whom she had loved; and she went out from the city of Minas Tirith....
(Appendix A)

Does this imply that she had already seen them grow and die or were these people, her children and those she loved, still alive? I can't see a mother willingly leaving her children to run of and die in the wilderness?


I've always thought they were still alive when she left but it does say "had loved." Past tense meaning something perhaps?
Her children were still alive, only Aragorn was dead, as Arwen died one year after Aragorn's death in 120 IV.

So it was still possible for her to just keep on living as a widow with the rest of her family in Minas Tirith... with her son and daughters... don't know why she left so suddenly, actually. Of course, losing her father because she chose Aragorn already was very hard, losing Aragorn was even harder... maybe she just grew weary of life and chose to die after a short period of 'mourning'.
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I have a question did Aragorn want to die because the book said he just started feeling old.


Before Sauron made the Numenorians fear death and it became known as the Curse of Men, death was actually a gift, the Gift of Men. Men are not tied to the fate of Middle Earth. They have a part to play in the Second Great Music with Iluvatar (eg. Heaven). In the early days, when this was understood, the Numenorians would lay down their lives when they felt the approach of old age rather than cling to life and become infirm. They did not fear death, for they had faith in the Gift.

By doing the same when he felt old age approach him, Aragorn is showing his true heritage and nobility. He is showing he is more akin to the early great Numenorian kings than those which followed. He has faith in Iluvatar and the Gift of Man.

Numenorians incidentally, lived long life spans and tended remain in their prime almost to the end. When old age did begin to show, therefore, they tended to age very fast and die shortly after (a few years maybe). When Aragorn began to feel old age, therefore, he knew within a few years he would quickly age and die if he did not choose to lay down his life while he was still healthy. He chose the path of his ancestors and chose not to spend the last few years of his life becoming aged and infirm.

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don't know why she left so suddenly, actually. Of course, losing her father because she chose Aragorn already was very hard, losing Aragorn was even harder... maybe she just grew weary of life and chose to die after a short period of 'mourning'.


I think that is very much the case, Vir. Elves could die of a broken heart, and even though Arwen had chosen the mortal path in the end, she had lived the majority of her life as an Elf. The loss of Aragorn would have made her life so empty she would have wearied of life. I think it rather significant that Lothlorien was empty when she returned there too.... No comfort. She was the last of her people, and it was time to move on.
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She was the last of her people, and it was time to move on.

Well, not exactly... there were still Elves around in Mirkwood in the 4th age... but those would ultimately never be seen or heard of again. Once again i refer to my POTW and Galadriel's quote... Wink Smilie
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became as a mortal woman and yet it was not her lot to die until all that she had gained was lost.
(Appendix A
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So what exactly does that mean?
She lost all her money in Vegas?

Seriously, Aragorn died so she grew weary of Middle-Earth, even so after losing her daddy was already a major heartache for her. Of course, she didn't lose her son nor daughters, so the quote is a bit confusing perhaps, if you take it literally. Like i already posted, it was still possible for her to remain in Minas Tirith with her son and daughters, but she didn't do that. After Aragorn's death, she felt her time to leave Middle-Earth as well had come. You could say she also lost her son and daughters, as she sought to leave in loneliness in Lothlorien, 'where now no one walks'.

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"Estel, Estel! she cried, and with that even he took her hand and kissed it, he fell into sleep. "

That did not mean that he had died, but had just fallen into sleep. And right after they had said that Arwen said her farewells and left. So he had not died when she left. ~Irima-arwen
Aragorn fell into a sleep of which he would never wake up : death. JRRT just chose to use an euphemism or perhaps just wanted to express that Aragorn's death was calm and noble, and released his life when he chose to, at the right moment.

You haven't included in your quote that after he fell into sleep, his face changed into a mix of old, young, wise and noble, or something, which shows Aragorn has indeed died.
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So what exactly does that mean?


I take this part to mean, perhaps unfairly, that Arwen cares only for Aragorn. Her children are alive, but the only thing she really loves in ME is Aragorn and without him she simply can't go on. When it refers to what everything she has gained, all she has gained is his love. And I am most likely amiss in my assesment of Arwen, but I found it very weak of her to go into Lothlorien and die because Aragorn was gone, I think she should have attatched herself to more people and not loved so exclusivly, then she would not have been alone.
Elves can die of grief, i don't know if arwen died of it of just death. But the on;y reason why she stayed in ME was because of Aragorn, and she loved him, she gave up her immortalitty for him. So losing him would be tearible hard. So you can't anything about the way she died.

~Irima-arwen
This is what I have had a problem understand - she dies after she loses all that she gains, but she hasn't unless she only gained Aragorn, in which case her children, grandchildren etc count for very little. Strange behaviour for a mother. Strange behaviour, I would think, for an elf who, usually, live for so long that they see their children for age upon age, yet she was willing to leave them after only a very short time with them. Never liked her much......
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Strange behaviour, I would think, for an elf who, usually, live for so long that they see their children for age upon age, yet she was willing to leave them after only a very short time with them. Never liked her much......

Well after Elrond left Middle-Earth, Arwen became a mortal woman. Even if she chose to stay behind with her kids, after Aragorn's death, she would've died anyway, most likely from grief. The fact that she first lost daddy and then hubby, must have crushed her gentle spirit.

The reason why she didn't leave Middle-Earth with Elrond (heh, apparently Arwen doesn't seem to have a life without daddy) is Aragorn. When this reason for her to cling to Middle-Earth disappears, she apparently feels she hasn't got a reason anymore to stay in Middle-Earth (which i think she has, as she has her 6 children and possibly grandchildren) for some reason... perhaps it's her Elvish character which is responsible for this... she grew weary of Middle-Earth like all Elves, even though she wasn't an Elf in body anymore (although i am very sure her pointy ears remained, even though she became mortal - heh).

Anyway, very strange behavior for a mother, indeed.

Well of course there are other examples of mothers and fathers leaving everything behind : Tuor and Idril, Earendil and Elwing (and those two didn't have a choice). After all, when the kids are old enough and able to walk on their own legs, there's no need to continue carrying them, is there?
I think as well it must be remembered that she is now mortal. She has already had around 2000 years of life, which is pretty good for a mortal, so must die at some time. Aragorn showed her that it was best to die with grace rather than sinking into infirmaty. She had spent the best part of her life as an ageless elf in the prime of her life. Maybe she did not relish sinking into frailty, with all of its wrinkles and colostamy bags. I think having taken the mortal path after so long as an Elf, she knew it was just for the duration of Aragorn's life (after all when do you draw the line? Seeing your children, your grandchildren, your great grand children etc grow?)

I think that that statement just means that even having lived so long, she still outlived the man she loved, and had chosen to die for. True, there were still elves in Middle Earth, but all the ones who she could call family were now gone.

In a way her life mirrows that of Luthien, the Morning Star. She chose mortality to be with the man she loved, and similarly died a short while after him after they had both dedicated their lives almost exclusively to each other and their children.
Instead of staying in Minas Tirith with all her children and their children, and rather than becoming a bitter old hag; she showed her nobility by going to Lothlorien and dying there at the time of her choosing, just as Elessar chose his time and place before, her showing his nobility.
Okay... and it's just postulation... in theory right? - from an only half clued in fan, but

But... what we have to go on is the index to TLOTR...Silmarilion, Book of Lost Tales, Unfinished Tales and a whole pile of conjecture plus the fact that the whole was a work in progress...

Arwen was only an immortal as long Elrond and possibly she herself lived... Elron is half Elf, his brother chose mortality.
The suggestion is that he and perhaps under certain circumstances his relatives may still, under certain choose..(though Arwen seems to give her choice to Frodo) . as all Elves remaining in Middle Earth at the end of the Thrid Age do, because very few are High Elves... (cf Galadriel's song at parting with the Fellowship) between some kind of diminishing to eventual death... or Halls of Mandos... (immediate Elvish death) or humanity... which is permanent death... but?

The elves have never known, nor know if mankind has anything beyond their short life...but it seems that they both believe and envy somekind of human Halls of Mandos, beyond even the knowledge of the Valar-

After her marriage, whatever went before we assume that she, like Tinuviel chose Beren, chose Aragorn and therefore her husbands fate as mortal. However... Aragorn is in fact a distant relative.. removed by many generations, and the marriage of mortal and elf has only occured twice previously... and can avail of the priviledge that Denother gets muddled... of choosing his time to die...

It is hinted that Tinuviel and Beren were given a "chance" at life, after rescuing the Silmarils from Morgoth... and passed beyond the knowledge of all men, to the Halls of Mandos, but Mandos is only for men, and the hints are that like Gandalf, they returned to Middle Earth to live out their years...Nothing such is hinted for Arwen and Aragorn. (They didn't quite reach the same kind of heroic accomplishment either, to be honest.)

Earendil was granted access to the Valar, and given a boat to ride, as a star in the sky... but still managed descendants...how when and where I haven't figured out except that he is Elronds' grandaddy... (I think!)

Arwen was of the Edain, only half elven, and one faced with the choice one of the three women, ttwo who went before her (her mother didn't die as such, just tired of Middle Earth, and seems to have taken ship... though it is never really clear whether Elves not slain in battle die, or just fade and pass on some kind of soul,,, and Gandalfs return... and who Gandalf possibly is makes me llean in the direction of them not neccessarily needing boats to cross the sea....!)

Her son was full grown, and of an age to take over from Aragorn...but her family were not all Silvan elves, like Legolas or Celeborn, (her mother, as Galadriel's daughter however had to be half Noldor) nor had she really given up her place to Frodo (or had she?)

Aragorn in effect tells her once again her choices... he has because of his heritage that right/power (described in the Silmarilion...) of knowing he is growing old and choosing to go in his prime (suggestion from Silmarilion is that he would otherwise grow old very fast, and die senile... or some such, that men of the West held their prime until the last few years...) - and he makes his decision...

She may follow the fate of men, or change her mind, find a way out and live with the fading memories, try and find a boat, or fade.. or whatever... - ... or face once again the challenge of the unknown, and really die... don't have the text in front of me right now, but believe if I could re read it, he more or less tells her she can change her mind, or live with the decision they faced long ago when things were much worse....

But in the meantime, the fourth age has come, and even if it blossoms in the beginning, there are fewer ents, no entwives, elves are of the Mirkword (Hobbit) type and few and far between, Rivendell is empty, Lothlorien deserted, Moira abondoned... and the dwarfs and elves and men that remain become more like each other... or fade..

I believe that the way the Valar bent the world once, has once again been bent, and even more so.. with a double twist if you like... so that Elevenhome is at one remove till

But Gimli and Legolas, it is suggested make it... and perhaps at some stage, Sam...

So Arwen has nowhere to go, but the whole story of the elves is that for over two thousands years they really have had nowhere to go, the few who didn't go at the the end of the First Age, along with the rebels (that we are told in the Silmarilion are in the minority anyhow) who left the Valar and returned to MIddle Earth...

There's one more weird union - Melian the Maia and Thingol, and the suggestion of Nimrodel and Amroth... and how if so, Prince Imrahil had signs of Elvish ancestry...
What happened here, and how did they solve it?
This is part of the fun or what?

In terms of the Third Age Aragorn is old for a man, even a latter day numenorean.. when we meet him in TLOTR he's in his sixties... and he manages to live and reign for about 120 more years, and outlives everyone else in the book... who doesn't disappear into the West that is or who hasn't owned a ring and isn't a wizard or otherwise immortal... or dwarf... (they seem to be rather tough and long lived)

His Numenorean ancestors lived a lot longer, but... he is a direct line decendant of Elros, Elrond's brother who chose mortality (and therefore also related to Elron, Arwen and of course, Idril and Tuor and Beren and Luthien...)

It is to be supposed that his long and glorious reign echoes that of his ancestors and the Appendix suggests that he was given the choice to end his reign like a Numenorean... (they retired and abdicated when they felt old age coming on, and usually were fit and healthy until shortly before their death/old age... that it came faster, that they held on to power during senility, that they spend more time trying to live longer was a sign of their diminishing and a result of Morgoth and then Saurons stay amongst them....)

So it seems "right" that Aragorn chose to die, not because he wanted to but because he knew his time was up.
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It is hinted that Tinuviel and Beren were given a "chance" at life, after rescuing the Silmarils from Morgoth... and passed beyond the knowledge of all men, to the Halls of Mandos, but Mandos is only for men, and the hints are that like Gandalf, they returned to Middle Earth to live out their years...Nothing such is hinted for Arwen and Aragorn. (They didn't quite reach the same kind of heroic accomplishment either, to be honest.)

Earendil was granted access to the Valar, and given a boat to ride, as a star in the sky... but still managed descendants...how when and where I haven't figured out except that he is Elronds' grandaddy... (I think!)

Earendil was Elrond's and Elros's FATHER. And he had his two children with Elwing before he reached Valinor with Vingilot.

Mandos only for men? Only for Elves, it is. First Beren died, then Luthien. After Luthien's lament to Mandos, both were granted to return to live in Beleriand for a short while. After this short while, both died and left the confines of Arda forever. That's why Luthien is the first elf who really died. Same with Aragorn and Arwen : they passed beyond Arda, to the halls of Eru.

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She may follow the fate of men, or change her mind, find a way out and live with the fading memories, try and find a boat, or fade.. or whatever... - ... or face once again the challenge of the unknown, and really die... don't have the text in front of me right now, but believe if I could re read it, he more or less tells her she can change her mind, or live with the decision they faced long ago when things were much worse....

Aragorn was in fact offering her to cancel the choice she made, i.e. decline the dusk and go to Valinor, become Elvish again, live forever and carry the love they shared just as a memory. Arwen then points out her choice was made long time ago and that 'no ship can take her thither'.

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Arwen was only an immortal as long Elrond and possibly she herself lived... Elron is half Elf, his brother chose mortality.

Eh, this doesn't make sense... Elrond IS immortal and so will live forever. No idea what you are trying to say... the fact is, if Elrond leaves Middle-Earth and Arwen stays behind, Arwen will become as a mortal woman and die. If she joins her father in his journey into the West, she will remain counted among the Eldar.

Elrond is called half-elven, because of his heritage, but he is indeed counted among the Elves, which he chose, and as such immortal. His children can still change to which race they are counted, but until they don't do this, they will be counted among Elves.

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Arwen was of the Edain, only half elven, and one faced with the choice one of the three women, ttwo who went before her (her mother didn't die as such, just tired of Middle Earth, and seems to have taken ship... though it is never really clear whether Elves not slain in battle die, or just fade and pass on some kind of soul,,, and Gandalfs return... and who Gandalf possibly is makes me llean in the direction of them not neccessarily needing boats to cross the sea....!)

No, Arwen is counted among the Eldar, she was an Elf, until her father left Middle-Earth, then she became mortal. Half-elf means she is descendant of Luthien-Beren, and/or Earendil-Elwing, and those descendants could choose to which race they would be counted.

In fact it is very clear what happens with Elves who are slain : their soul passes to the Halls of Mandos, where they stay for a short while, and then they return to the 'land of the living'. Example : Finrod. It is not clear what happens with Men after death : their soul only stays a short while in the Halls of Mandos, but after that = ?

Gandalf is a Maia, an Ainu spirit. He was sent back by the Valar himself, after his mortal body was destroyed, he obviously passed to the Halls of Mandos, and then got new 'orders' from the Valar.

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In terms of the Third Age Aragorn is old for a man, even a latter day numenorean.. when we meet him in TLOTR he's in his sixties... and he manages to live and reign for about 120 more years, and outlives everyone else in the book... who doesn't disappear into the West that is or who hasn't owned a ring and isn't a wizard or otherwise immortal... or dwarf... (they seem to be rather tough and long lived)

He was in fact 87 when the Hobbits meet him in Bree. He doesn't outlive Gimli and Legolas, does he? Those two passed into the West after Aragorn's death. And only ONE dwarf, Gimli, possibly went into the West - Dwarves can become around 500 years maximum.

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I believe that the way the Valar bent the world once, has once again been bent, and even more so.. with a double twist if you like... so that Elevenhome is at one remove till

Not sure what you are referring too, but it was in fact Eru who sank Numenor and removed Aman from Arda into another 'plane'.

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So Arwen has nowhere to go, but the whole story of the elves is that for over two thousands years they really have had nowhere to go, the few who didn't go at the the end of the First Age, along with the rebels (that we are told in the Silmarilion are in the minority anyhow) who left the Valar and returned to MIddle Earth...

In the first Age, the Noldor who returned to Beleriand to fight Morgoth hadn't anywhere to go, as they were banished from Valinor. After the War of Wrath, they were forgiven, safe Galadriel, and then they were allowed to return... anyway, all remaining Elves in Middle-Earth in the 2nd age and 3rd age were allowed and could go into the West (to Eldamar) once they grew weary of Middle-Earth, so i don't get why you are saying 'they had nowhere else to go'. Only Galadriel wasn't allowed to return yet, as she was one of the leading Noldor who chose to leave Valinor after Melkor and Ungoliant destroyed the Two Trees. But after Galadriel refused the Ring, her ban was lifted.
Arwen chose to die so she could again be with Aragorn at the end of time when Arda and the Elves were no more, and Men would be raised again at the coming of the Second Music. I'm on unfamiliar ground here; Val has a better handle on this period.
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at the end of time when Arda and the Elves were no more, and Men would be raised again at the coming of the Second Music. I'm on unfamiliar ground here; Val has a better handle on this period.


Eru was very vague about the fate of Man, and the Gift of Man too. It is known that at the End, which is the end of the events covered within the First Great Music, a Second Great Music will be played, and that this second music will be greater than the first. The First Great Music was composed by the Ainur and Eru, and from its chords sprang Ea and its future. The Second Great Music will be composed by Men in addition to the Ainur and Eru. It is thought to represent Heaven.

There are not many details of what will happen to Ea at the End. It will follow the Last Battle, in which Turin assisted by Tulkas and Eonwe will slay Melkor, and Ea will thereafter come into fruition as the perfect, unsullied world it should have been if unmarred by Melkor. JRR does not say specifically what happens to Ea at this point, but my belief is, it will cease to exist. As Elves are tied to the fate of Ea, at this point they too would cease to exist.

In this scenario, therefore, Elves are immortal within the timeframe of Ea, whereas it is Men who are truely immortal because they get to sit beside Eru in the Second Music. In some of his writings in Morgoth's Ring Tolkien does elude to this fate for the Elves and Ea. Just as Men came to have fears concerning their short life spans, the elves too have grave concerns over the fact that at the End they and everything they were will cease to be.

By choosing the Mortal path therefore, Arwen has chosen to be with Aragorn beyond the bounds of Ea, rather than choosing to be forever separated.
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By choosing the Mortal path therefore, Arwen has chosen to be with Aragorn beyond the bounds of Ea, rather than choosing to be forever separated.
That's what I was trying to say in my last post. Val's choice of words is much clearer. Thanks Val. Happy Elf Smilie