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Thread: Death of Theodin

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Has anyone else seen the similarity in the death of Theodin and the death of Darth Vader? From the camra shots to the lines spoken. I don't remember what he said in the book but they seem to be almost identical in the films. Is it an homage to Lucas from Jackson? Orc Going Huh Smilie
I'll say this before Vir does - it certainly isn't a homage from PJ to JRRT.
Who on earth is Theodin?? But yes, Théoden also said "My son, take off my helmet so i can see you with my own eyes" against Éowyn.

It's identical!!

It would have been more alike to ROTJ if the Witch-King said to Éowyn "Daughter, take off my helmet so i can see you with my own eyes".

Sorry Virumor Ididn't know that Planet-tolkien was like Final Jeapordy and that spelling counted. Thank you for the just correction I shall never do so again. Elf Sticking Tounge Out Smilie
Planet-Tolkien isn't like that at all, Gothmog, just members like Vir who like to pick up on other's mistakes regardless of their own imperfections.

Of course, you will never equal our very sweet Amarie (Council Member) for her typos. Oh, I wish I kept a list of them but she threatened to roast me if I did. And she means it.

Wiggle Smilie
Hail Lord of Balrogs! Don't mind Virumor, she's just a bit nutty. And no I don't think the death of Theoden and the Death of Darth Vader is similar.
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Don't mind Virumor, she's just a bit nutty


Eh.... I think you are mixing two persons....
Nah....The blend is perfect. Care to taste?
Gothmog, meet Virumor. Virumor is a purist. He likes correctly written names as well as correct information, quotes and facts. Which is good, since it keeps us on our toes and helps us seperate movie-lotr from tolkien-lotr and imaginary info from the real info. Smile Smilie

And ALL of us members should be careful about picking on other members.

I am the Queen of Typos, I carry my typos with pride and will, as Vee, says roast anyone who makes fun of me or anyone else. Or torture you with endless rants about why you should not make fun of others. Wink Smilie

And as an attempt to bring this thread back on topic: I think the death of Theoden and the Death of Darth Vader are similar. I remember rolling my eyes when I saw it. A homage to Lucas? Could be, could be... Your guess is as good as mine.
Well, had PJ better built up the relationship between Merry and Théoden rather than between Merry and Dernhelm; Éowyn wouldn't have had to borrow Luke's lines and Merry would have been able to star in the book's tear jerking scene of Théoden's death where Éowyn was knocked out and Éomer had yet to return.
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And there stood Meriadoc the hobbit in the midst of the slain, blinking like an owl in daylight, for tears blinded him; and through a mist he looked on Éowyn's fair head, as she lay and did not move; and he looked on the face of the king, fallen in the midst of his glory. For Snowmane in his agony had rolled away from him again; yet he was the bane of his master.

Then Merry stooped and lifted his hand and kissed it, and lo! Théoden opened his eyes, and they were clear, and he spoke in a quiet voice though laboured.

'Farewell, Master Holbytla!' he said. 'My body is broken. I go to my fathers. And even in their mighty company I shall not now go ashamed. I felled the black serpent. A grim morn, and a glad day, and a golden sunset!'

Merry could not speak, but wept anew. 'Forgive me, lord,' he said at last, 'if I broke your command, and yet have done no more in your service than to weep at our parting.'

The old king smiled. 'Grieve not! It is forgiven. Great heart will not be denied. Live now in blessedness; and when you sit in peace with your pipe, think of me! For never now shall I sit with you in Meduseld, as I promised, or listen to your herb-lore.' He closed his eyes, and Merry bowed beside him.

- from The Battle of the Pelennor Fields, RotK, Book 5, Chapter Six.
Well there wasn't really a Dernhelm in the movies was there? Merry knew he was riding with Éowyn.

Gotta hand it to PJ, it was nice to include some girl power after he didn't include Arwen at Helm's Deep. Always take a woman to do a man's job! Very Big Grin Smilie
But did not Jackson have Arwen in the film far more then she was in the Books. I don't remember her being anymore then a peripheral character in the books. Then the movies come out and she is everywhere and greatly influential in middle-earth events.
She wasn't everywhere for sure. In FOTR for like 15 minutes? In TTT for 10 minutes at least. Dito for ROTK. PJ just wanted an Arwen on the lines instead of between the lines. In one word : warrior princess.

Normally Arwen would've been included at the battle of Helm's Deep as well. Hunting some orc and such. Pity that PJ cut that out because some Tolkien purists were threatening to keelhaul him.

Warrior princesses everywhere! Anyone noticed Guinevere in King Arthur?
Well, that's just how movies are made these days. Ya can't have a fantasy movie without the warrior women. Not that it is bad, just gets a little old, the same old storyline used each time.

Skip it to the end!!! No wait wrong movie Wink Smilie

The Princess Bride.... the movie to watch.

Either way, is it true that Liv Tyler sang during the HoH scene? I thought that would be Sissel.

Eowyn slayed the fell beast veraciously then in the TE. She really had to work hard for it. And Theoden's death still made me cry. But I wept, just as in the books, when Eomer found Eowyn.
if Arwen was at Helms, wouldnt it have changed things abit, considering the entire elvish contingent died....i dont think the caves were included, i suppse they coulda got around this though. As well as this the warrior princess thing is ever so hugely cheesy, im all for girl power but it was a male dominated world and too many "warrior princess's" runnin around would be a bit wierd. didnt anyone else cringe at Eowyn's quppy one liner when she slew the witch king?
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... didnt anyone else cringe at Eowyn's quppy one liner when she slew the witch king?
That didn't sound very dissimilar to Tolkien's:
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'But no living man am I! You look upon a woman.
And then in the book she went on to state her pedigree and to warn him off. Even Witch-King Nazguls should beware the wrath of a vengefull woman, but he wouldn't listen. Oh no! He had to stick his mace in it in order to save face, and instead of backing down and saving it, he lost the whole darned shooting match for Sauron, his Lord and Master. Elf Winking Smilie
I guess Miranda Otto fought for a bigger part for herself in the movie than what the book allows. You know girls!!
Going back to the Elves at Helms Deep. Wouldn't you think the way that PJ has demonstrated the fighting prowess of Legolas that the small contigent of elves would have mopped up the Uruks. Or ara the Mirkwood Elves superior to the others, I don't remember them being so tough. Elf Rolling Eyes Smilie
Good point about the elves at Helm's Deep, Gothmog. I thought the same thing. Guess PJ is leaving that to the imagination and perhaps they did in fact, kill quite a number of orcs as they were way outnumbered.

I didn't see any similarity to Darth Vadar's death but then I look at Star Wars quite differently. More as a Sci-Fi where LOTR seems much more real. Wishful thinking perhaps, to an extent!
Actually Star Wars is considered a fantasy since it is not earth bound like Star Trek. But I was never sure how that worked with non-science fantacy. Genres are just so darn confusing. Very Mad Smilie
And here all this time I thought Star Wars was a gothic fairy tale of the first order. Elk Grinning Smilie
That's not the way I define SF and fantasy. To me SF has to have logic and 'scientific' explanations whereas in fantasy things just happen because they do.
didnt PJ attempt to make LotR feel more historical? i cant remember where but i think he said it was trying to be more "braveheart" than "labyrinth" in the way the film was shot

lol Grond, i know it was similair to book in the dialogue but i always imagined it to be less corny, can u honestly say u didnt cringe even the smallest but when u saw that scene?
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Virumor
She wasn't everywhere for sure. In FOTR for like 15 minutes? In TTT for 10 minutes at least. Dito for ROTK. PJ just wanted an Arwen on the lines instead of between the lines. In one word : warrior princess.

Normally Arwen would've been included at the battle of Helm's Deep as well. Hunting some orc and such. Pity that PJ cut that out because some Tolkien purists were threatening to keelhaul him.


Bottom Line: The movies contained too much Arwen and not enough legitimite content... What i mean by that is, PJ shouldn't have veered off from the original story so much... Besides i think they could have found a hotter actress to play Arwen, isn't Arwen suppose to be the most gorgeous women/elf that exists in middle-earth, during that time period... Liv Tyler ain't all that!


p.s.
PJ should have been keelhauled just for the heck of it!
If PJ would've followed the books to the letter, there would've been at most 10 minutes of Arwen in the movies. So why pick a hot actress for 10 minutes? No, just take Fran Walsh, aka Ms PJ, to play Arwen, in that case. Ha ha ha.

I think Liv Tyler is good-looking enough to play Arwen, the only problem is her annoying voice and crap acting. Noticed that "Oh no Frodo, don't give up!!!" - weeping scene in FOTR? what the heck was up with that?! I would've rushed with they dying hobbit-doll to Rivendell, as the doll was about to enter the spirit world.

Anyway, if PJ would've dealt with Arwen like in the books, i wouldn't complain bout Liv Tyler at all. Well, perhaps only for the voice. PJ should've picked a hotter actress to play Eowyn. Eowyn's supposed to be a young woman, 23 years of age. Not a rinkled woman in her 30s.

Hey, why wasn't Ioreth in the movies? Maybe Miranda Otto could've played that chick. Ha ha ha.

In fact, i'd like to change almost the entire LOTR cast coz i think they all stink big time, but maybe that's just because the movies don't follow the books that well. I think only Bilbo, Gandalf and Saruman were decent. Perhaps even Galadriel. Boromir was in fact good either, safe for that dying scene. For one moment, i thought PJ installed "arrow-time" in the movie and that Boromir would dodge the arrows, like a fantasy Neo or something.

I think we're kinda off topic.

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Actually Star Wars is considered a fantasy since it is not earth bound like Star Trek.

Star Wars is not, but "Star Wargs" is ! Besides, Star Trek ain't earthbound. Only nerdbound.

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" isn't Arwen suppose to be the most gorgeous women/elf that exists in middle-earth"

I always thought that Galadriel was supposed to be the most beautiful with Feanor trying to get a lock of her hair and Gimli getting all mushy around her. But Kate Blanchette is not all that either. But how could their be a human representing lovliness, someone will always complain about it.

And to Virumor: What is Sar Wargs? :orchuh: Are just combining the star Wars and LotR

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And to Virumor: What is Sar Wargs? Are just combining the star Wars and LotR

If you new Virmor just half of what I do, you would have realised that this is Virmor's style of poking fun! And btw its Star Wargs not Sar wargs! Anyways, just keep having fun!
Sorry I'm an terrible at typeing and spelling.
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Sorry I'm an terrible at typeing and spelling

Yes, I can notice it in that line too! Very Big Grin Smilie

Anyways, I'm sorry...don't feel bad. Just having a harmless sarcasm. Never ever mind my humour. It could get a bit touchy! (Ouch!)

What really great comments. so alive and full of humour.

I miss Vir's stinging biting, er........in your face humour.

Well since this topic has been revived, I'll give my 2 cents...

Firstly, sure, Theodens death is similar to Vaders, but only in the sense that it's a generic archetype in all literature. I can make comparisons of that scene to so many other works of literature that have more or less identical scenes. Not to mention LOTR came before Star Wars, so if anything Lucas was giving an homage to Tolkien and PJ just did the same.

Next...if you want to get technical in comparisons, no contingent of elves even showed up at Helms Deep. That was completely movie based. So my guess is those elves were added in place of Arwen, just for the sake of adding epicness and letting the audience see elves in action, and wanting Elrond to deliver the sword in ROTK.

Another note....the most beautiful elf to have ever lived in ME is Luthien. Though like what someone else said, If you're going to refer to the most beautiful elf that STILL LIVES IN MIDDLE EARTH, then technically it would be Galadriel. I do agree that the actresses they chose are decent at best. I think they would make great female elves, just not those particular two, who have a VERY high standard when it comes to looks.

I don't think I'd change much of the cast though, I think almost everyone did a great job. I was EXTREMELY disappointed with the lack of awesomeness that is Faramir, the movies didn't do half as good of justice as he deserved, though I thought the actor was a good choice. I dunno, I thought they did a great job at casting, aside from Arwen and Galadriel.

And last thing, TECHNICALLY the difference between SciFi and Fantasy is what Vee said, whereas Science Fiction has to have some semblance of genuine science in it, whereas fantasy involves that which is literally impossible.... i.e. Space travel is a possibility, laser guns actually exist, while elves coming from across the Western Sea or giant creatures of flame and shadow rising from inside the earth is not.

I personally don't care if there is any resemblance between the Theoden and Eowyn scene and that of Darth Vader and company. I was mesmerized by the acting and felt I was there with the two. I admit I cried like a baby when he died, because I have lost all of my family as of this year and the pain of losing someone you love is just the worst, so I identified with the almost constant pain of heart and sorrow that poor shield maiden had been enduring for so many years.

I think Miranda Otto, I always get her name wrong, is stunningly beautiful. I was just looking at her now pictures with her and her little one and I think she is gorgeous and completely non wrinkly!

I'm sorry to hear the LeeLee, my best wishes go out to you.

Will agree that it was a great scene though, with the battle finally dying out in the background, I, too, felt like I was right there. And the only resemblace to that of ROTJ is the classic archetypal father dies with dying wishes to child. In that sense, yes they are similar. Theoden's death was more classical, while Vaders was a twist on the idea.

How kind of you Balrogs R Us, it has been the hardest year of my life. It is rather odd really to wake up in the night and know that all the family you knew just a while back growing up all left this earth far too early.

I just wish, I just so wish that all the red tape would be cut through and things would just get....done with the Hobbit so we can have that thrilling feeling again like that of the death of Theodin. What a stellar actor really. Although it rather shocked me when I viewed him in the extended version in one bit tap dancing and acting silly! I forget they have normal everyday lives and personalites when not in costume.

Remember how thrilling it was there for a while to wait impatiently for that great day when one of the trilogy would play. The breathless excitement, the flurry of reading your favorite parts in the book just before to refresh your memory. Becoming like a little child and just allowing yourself to be swept away with the mythology and spectacular wonder of this make believe, yet so real world. Ahhhhh, it was heaven really.

I have found there are many, shall I say similarities between Star Wars and TLOTRs as I may say Harry Potter the Twilight Series etc etc and on and on. If you look hard enough they are there because the writers of these are all Tolkien fans.  Its impossible to not (even unconsciously) pull from Toliens stories if you are familiar with them, because the stories are so powerful and permeate the mind.  Even professor Tolkien admitted to using such literature greats as Beowulf as a basis for some of his ideas, so I'm sure that George Lucas is no different (even though his script writing abilities are shocking).

Gosh Virumor your a tough cookie, Liv Tyler not beautiful enough....  I thought her looks matched perfectly with Tolkien's descriptions of Arwen and Luthien, who if we remember was almost Arwen's mirror image.

Well, there was ENDOR in Lucases movies (I can't really remember the part, but it was a planet). Maybe it was influence from Tolkien's work.

However, I do not think PJ had Star Wars as a source of inspiration.

And there are many storylines and plots in Tolkiens works, that could be recognized as "eternal problems of a person or society at large". I do not believe Tolkien meant them to be so, but they came up to be: like problems in politics, love, personal care or misjudgment and consequences etc. So if you find these problems elswhere it is not nessecairily influenced by Tolkien.

There is an old speech in my lands, saying:

"Not every smile is tenderness, not every gaze is a call. When we look deep enough we can see it even if there it is not." [I attempted to preserve both meaning and form] And this looks like "All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost...", but there is no direct evedance for them to be influenced from eachother or from common source. Sometimes coincidance happen.

Just where are your lands Ammornil, it sounds very mysterious and romantic.

I suppose we all influence one another in small ways without knowing it. I like that saying. There is also one in the scriptures that King Solomon wrote " there is nothing new under the sun"Perhaps they did get those things from others, who knows. Even Jack(C.S. Lewis) and our professor Tolkien seem to have influenced one another. They used little things that they obviously heard from one another in their 'reading club.' Exciting.

We certainly do! Another speech of my people says: "Alone person is just for two places to be: at the toilet and in the grave. In all other occasions one needs other people." We do not even notice how easily we become alike to those we share our lives with (even in these forums).

OUT OF TOPIC:

@LeeLee >> Oh, I live in a peace of Heaven. It is, financially measured, the poorest country of EU, but it is also one that for the same reason has preserved natural ways more than most industrial countries did during the 20th century. It is Bulgaria, my homeland and I always proudly share that. Here you can visit villages where still the Earth is worked with animal power driven vessels and tools. It is almost as in the Shire. Unfortunately there are also areas where this is long lost memory. But I hope we will return towards the ways of our forefathers and eventually start living in the natural environment, not making one of our own.