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Ok who here has seen the ROTK extended version? Well i got it for christmas because i heard it had some importants scenes that they left out in theatre version. The biggest part i was looking forward to was The Mouth of Sauron. Tolkein made the dude sound too cool.

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At its head there rode a tall and evil shape, mounted upon a black horse, if horse it was; for it was huge and hideous, and its face was a frightful mask, more like a skull that a living head, and in the sockets of its eyes and in its nostrils there burned a flame. The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man. The lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dúr he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it, and he said: 'I am the Mouth of Sauron.' But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Númenoreans...


I guess The Mouth of Sauron was, yet another attempt of PJ trying to be a comedian, because I was in awe with how comical that scene was done... Yet another reason for me to gripe with PJ, why change something that didn't need to be changed?

I don't know what PJ's Mouth of Sauron was suppose to be, but it looked like a Star Wars creature to me. PJ clearly emphasized on the MOUTH part, terrible job at best! His every feature was corny, everything from his ridiculous helmet, to his horse... did i mention his mouth yet? His "hideous" horse looked like a pony. The Nazgúl's horses in the first movie looked closer to the part... Where was the flaming eyes and nostrils?

He was suppose to be a Black Númenorean, although i'm unaware if Tolkien meant black to be a metaphor for evil, or was his skin tone suppose to be black?

Anyway if i was PJ i would be embarresed with that character he created, because I could have done better. The black actor who played 'King Pin' in spiderman would have fit the job much better.
Well, I am ashamed to say this, but I still do not have the SEE! **Gasp** Shocked Elf Smilie

Even so, I will say that PJ's omission of many characters and addition of others is what draws the most attention to his and Fran and Phillipa's errors...I can't wait to see what you're talking about, Turin!

Is there anyone else who has seen this ridiculous monstrousity?
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Well, I am ashamed to say this, but I still do not have the SEE! **Gasp**

No worries, i just saw it last night for my first time... well most of it, i have another hour left.


I would go to the chatroom and talk about it with some members but i'm, "voluntarily," taking exactly 360 minutes of leave; as of a few mintues ago... not too sure why
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The black actor who played 'King Pin' in spiderman

Don't you mean the Kingpin in Daredevil? That would be Michael Clark Duncan. Giant of a man he is!
It was a little hoakey but all in all I didn't think that the Mouth was done too poorly. I don't think that it was supposed to be comical as much as it was supposed to be an afront to the tradition of parlay.
I thought the Mouth of Sauron scene was okay, but I was disappointed with certain aspects. The scene would have been so much more effective IMHO if PJ and Co. had stayed closer to what’s actually in the book (but isn’t that the case with everything we pick on).

The thing that bugged me the most was Aragorn chopping the Mouth’s head off. They should have had the Mouth taunt, and then go back behind the Black Gate, much more effective, and dramatic. We didn’t need the "Hollywood" action chop there; it just didn’t work for me. I'd rather at least have the Mouth in the film than not though.
Elf Smilie
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The thing that bugged me the most was Aragorn chopping the Mouth’s head off.

Oh my god... Very Mad Smilie "There can be only one Numenoran", i guess...

I'm happy Santa didn't bring me ROTK SEE for christmas. A bit too much Conan the Barbarian for me.

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The thing that bugged me the most was Aragorn chopping the Mouth’s head off.
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When in Parley Mode, it is very unchivalrous, undiplomatic even, to remove the head from your opponent's herald and ambassador, though he mock you with great insolence. 'Tis better to just spit in his eye, for then you anger only him, rather than all his assembled soldiery. - The Art of War as reckoned by Grondmaster
First time I saw him, I was a bit disapointed.... he was different to how I had expected. His horse apart, there is not much of a discription of him.

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At its head there rode a tall and evil shape, mounted upon a black horse, if horse it was; for it was huge and hideous, and its face was a frightful mask, more like a skull that a living head, and in the sockets of its eyes and in its nostrils there burned a flame. The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man. The lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dúr he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it, and he said: 'I am the Mouth of Sauron.' But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Númenoreans...


Black Numenorians are not black. They are of the same kin as the Numenorians of Gondor. They were pure Numenorian stock. There was later mixing with the Haradrim to create the Corsairs, who most likely would have been of darker skin, but the Black in Black Numenorian refers to their hearts rather than their skin. The Mouth should have been white, therefore, be tall and evil shape, and be robed in black with a lofty helm. Not a lot to go on. PJ certainly made his helm lofty.....

What really stands out with him is his mouth. That's quite a mouth.... more than I was expecting. I must say though, before seeing him he was the main thing I wanted to see in the extended version. When I watched it again the next day, having seen him, he was still the part I most wanted to see. Personally, I like how he was portrayed, but like Elfstone, not happy with the way Aragorn broke the parley.

What I find strangest about him is the way he moves. It is almost as though he is blind, turning as he does to sound. That part made him seem alien rather than human, and I think is what makes me slightly disappointed with him. In my opinion, he could have been made a lot worse.
I wasn't too keen on the 'mouth'. It looked like a cartoon to me but I did enjoy watching the extras where they showed how it was made and the thinking behind it. TMoS was the last villain and had to be formidable and scary so they made him blind. We know he wasn't blind, Gandalf looked into his eyes. There isn't much to go on in the book other than the brief description and odd bits like

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His face was twisted with amazement and anger to the likeness of some wild beast that, as it crouches on its prey, is smitten on the muzzle with a stinging rod. Rage filled him and his mouth slavered, and shapeless sounds of fury came strangling from his throat.


It seems to be the usual thing that words work in our own imaginations but not when transferred to film. It all has to be bigger, bolder and more defined because the visual mediium of film doesn't allow us to follow our own imagination while watching it. We have to be locked onto that screen and the images before us.

I agree that Aragorn should not have killed him in the way it was shown. Dishonourable. I would have preferred to see Aragorn and TMofS battling it out together rather than Aragorn killing him.

PJ had a problem though - to make this final battle as nail biting as he could. The book works wonderfully as a book but it seems he thought it wasn't right for a film. Was he right? I don't know. When I read the book I see it all happening and it is spectacular.

In the book we don't see what happens to TMofS once he turns and goes back through the Black Gate. Perhaps one of the eagles ate him?

I love the eagles! It's a beautiful scene in the book. Descendants of Thorondor! I'm thankful that PJ didn't stick a crown on Gwaihir's head to show us that this was no ordinary eagle.
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I love the eagles! It's a beautiful scene in the book. Descendants of Thorondor! I'm thankful that PJ didn't stick a crown on Gwaihir's head to show us that this was no ordinary eagle.

No, the size of the eagle made it very clear enough it wasn't just some ordinary eagle.

Or like a wiseguy in the theatres called out : "The Eagle has landed!".

Actuallly, i have thought of a possible explanation why Aragorn chopped off the Mouth's head : PJ has found inspiration in the bible!! In the bible, some princess asks Herodes (?) for John the Baptist's head on a plate. Well in ROTK, Arwen asks Aragorn the same, but instead of John the Baptist's head she wanted the Mouth's head!!

Tada!!

Man, those warrior princesses have strange thoughts about romance.
haha virumor you never cease to amaze me with your never-ending facts of information.... and how you manage to bring Arwen into every reply of yours Wink Smilie

Anyhow i still think Tmos could have been done better, but we could say that about lots of things.... At least it was in the movie though, i'd rather have that scene even if it wasn't how i imagined it.

Thanks for clearing up that whole black numenorean thing, Val. I was fairly sure Tolkien used the word black for a metaphor of their personality but wasn't 100% sure.
Was the Mouth of Sauron really that bad in the movie? He wasn't exactly like in the book, but Frodo wasn't fifty in FOTR either. The thing that bugged me the most in the Mouth of Sauron scene was his horse. I'm horse crazy and I was expecting a steed that made your skin crawl, but when he was on screen you could hardly see him at all. Too bad, but I can live with it.
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but Frodo wasn't fifty in FOTR either.


But how do we really know he wasn't Fifty in the movies? They never really stated his age, like they did in the books. And of course the concept of time in the movies was off, but i'd still presume he was 50 in the movies.

and yes TMOS steed was lame in the movies, along with the mouth...
I loved the MoS scene, I don't know how you couldn't like it. I mean if PJ, just had it as regular it would have been good, but with the huge 200 times the mouth of Bruce Spence, it made it worthwhile for EE, and it added extra drama to the scene. It was one of, if not best scenes in EE, t was a great job by PJ, and it worked very well, makes it more hideous, like a Dunedain who was corrupted by the Dark Lord all those years, with the Sorcery powers, and the "Grima" like ability to get inside your head, and the pain, and the HOY HAYVEN MAVEN! (that last part was a Professor Frink thing from the Simpsons)
I kind of like the mouth of Sauron, I watched the extended version (Behind the movie) and belive me when I say this. If you compare the final Mouth of Sauron (the one we could see in ROTK) and the ones they thought of using teh final on was the best!!!!
See the extended-behind the scenes and be chocked Big Smile Smilie
I missed the mos very much and was glad it was in the EE. But his kinda grin made me laugh, it didn't really convince me of this scene's being very serious... Except the really unnecessary head-chopping I think it was alright, maybe this was PJ's image of tmos, who can say? And making a movie of such a monumental book like LotR is certainly most difficult, you can't satisfy everyone. They did what they could and I think they did quite good work; no question, they could have made several things much better, but on the whole the movies are not that bad. I enjoy watching them all at once, the whole night long... that's great.
I was totally convinced with the Mouth of Sauron...
It was one of my favorite parts in the book and I loved
the way that he gave me chills... I can still remember
getting the EE and sitting down, immediately going to
the scene with the Mouth of Sauron and getting the heebie
jeebies... Haha... I loved it... And it totally was the
best version that PJ thought up... He's one of the most
interesting characters to me. I'm glad PJ made a go at it...
The Mouth Hygiene was a bit lacking, though.
I have seen it many times.

The Mouth of sauron is portraide at first glance at something comical but then when you analyse him you do see the point PJ was trying to make.

He has no Eyeslits in his helm to show how little he was regarded by his master, to show his devotion to Barad-dur and to show his humanity. His mouth has been elabortaed to become groteque beyond recognition of humanity. His Horse if you look has no head in the film. It has a helmet armour on the horse but when you look through its eyeholes it has no visible head for you can see straight through. It is also considerably bigger than Aragorn's horse of Shadowfax.
Lastly his comical way of speaking after a while becomes more dreadful as its mingled in with threats of torture and death and how little he cared for anything that opposes his master.

In short I can see where PJ got this idear from and i personally have no problem with it.

The Black Numenoreans were descended from the real Edain who took to Sauron over the many voyages of the Numenoreans to middle-earth, so in essence they were evil. Eviler indeed than Orcs (who should be pitied).
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The Mouth Hygiene was a bit lacking, though.


Most definitely!

I can see why they cut that particular scene from the theatre version
i liked that scene
it was funny
that might not be wot some people were hoping for
but for me it didnt matter
it was just another movie
that hapeend to be alot like a book
:P
That is the way people should look at the films Elrose instead of thinking 'Oh, this is an insult to Tolkien...'
i was expecting the Mouth of Sauron to appear when i went to see it at the cinema, i was a little disapointed as i wanted to see what PJ saw him/it as and what he looked like to PJ, but to be honest, hasnt the guy tryed Listerine???

Ive sent some to him

Mr. M. O. Sauron
38 Baradur Lane
Plateau of Gorgoroth
Mordor
Middle-Earth
Arda
PO BOX K1LL 3V3RYTH1NG
I only remember applauding when Aragorn swiped his head off.
Oh, not so, Cloveress! I agree with Grondy, Vee and the rest: to end a parley with a decapitation is something we would expect of the hosts of Mordor, not the Uncrowned King of Men.
Did Aragorn cry out "There can be only one!" before doing what he did. Not to mention, did he receive any Quickening?
naw, he just kinda smiled then grimaced or wotever then went CHOP
chop
just like that
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Oh, not so, Cloveress! I agree with Grondy, Vee and the rest: to end a parley with a decapitation is something we would expect of the hosts of Mordor, not the Uncrowned King of Men.


I know, I know, but the MoS deserved what he got.
The MoS was kind of like I imagined him to be, but a little less scary. I thought he would be a lot more intimidating, but PJ's version was not bad at all. Although I did wince when Aragorn went 'CHOP' because I didn't expect that...it was almost non-Aragorn like. *shrug*
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Did Aragorn cry out "There can be only one!" before doing what he did. Not to mention, did he receive any Quickening?


Hahaha, Vir, you really crack me up! Big Laugh Smilie

I didn't mind too much that PJ gave the MoS a huge grotesque mouth - it could be possible after many years of mutilation and torture in the service of Sauron. Though he was a little too comical for my liking: his mannerisms, the stupid looking helmet, that grin (couldn't help but laugh) & did anyone else pick up on his accent? Sounds like he may have crossed over from the Mexican border (or some such place) at some point.
And like many others have said, I didn't like how Aragorn just cut off his head - very much out of character.

But I was also glad that they included the scene in the EE. As well as the scene with Saruman on the tower of orthanc, trying to win the hearts of lesser men with the power of his voice (except, of course, for some deviations from the book version).
Too comic, not evil.
Thumbs Down Smilie Thumbs Down Smilie
The funky mouth-thing didn't do it for me. MoS claimed to be a descendent of the black-Númenóreans, did he not? If so, unless his ancestors were tortured and mutilated or Sauron did some 'magic', how could he appear in such a way? I was disappointed with the over all effect of the character, which as others have stated before me, did little but give a twisted form of comic relief. I applaud PJ for trying, but not for the finished image.
i think it was supposed to be the kinda funny thing to get you all set for like, 10 mins of fighting
cuz it was pretty funny
i dont think that PJ did a good job with him, to all the above i agree, more comic relief than serious, but wasn't he powerful??? he goes outside the black gate against loadsa men and he dies within a second, he shouldve been able to fight, bad eyesight i say Big Smile Smilie
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Though he was a little too comical for my liking: his mannerisms, the stupid looking helmet, that grin (couldn't help but laugh) & did anyone else pick up on his accent?

Well, this is because the Mouth of Sauron used to be Edmund Blackadder before he was taken into Sauron's service.
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he goes outside the black gate against loadsa men and he dies within a second, he shouldve been able to fight,
Well he went out there to parley, not to get slaughtered under a flag of truce. Usually prior to a civilized battle, a truce is proposed by one side or the other allowing one side to demand the other's surrender or to say, "Nuts!" and then the parley participants are allowed to regain their lines prior to the battle's beginning.

After the MoS's insolent opening remarks in the book, and after Aragorn had stared him down without touching a weapon, the MoS cried, "I am a herald and an ambassador, and may not be assailed!" Then Gandalf told the MoS that "Where such laws hold, it is also the custom for ambassadors to use less insolence. But no one has threatened you. You have naught to fear from us until your errand is done."

What PJ's Aragorn did was barbaric, activity expected from a barbarian, not from a civilized warrior-kinglet who should have known better. However, maybe PJ's Aragorn knew he was fighting barbarians and thus the rules of chivalry didn't apply. Teacher Smilie
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prior to a civilized battle

i havent heard much bout those...mayb thats why he didnt follow the rules?
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Well he went out there to parley, not to get slaughtered under a flag of truce. Usually prior to a civilized battle, a truce is proposed by one side or the other allowing one side to demand the other's surrender or to say, "Nuts!" and then the parley participants are allowed to regain their lines prior to the battle's beginning.


You're showing your age, your knowledge or your love of George C. Scott films. I'm gonna be generous and say the second, with maybe a touch of the last. Elf Winking Smilie

And for the record, from being taken down by a single (dead) Orc on a Warg to leading Eowyn on like a total cad, Aragorn did many un-Aragorn like things on screen, sadly. Sigh. Guess Jackson felt there was still too much nobility to the character(s) and the tale....
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And for the record, from being taken down by a single (dead) Orc on a Warg to leading Eowyn on like a total cad, Aragorn did many un-Aragorn like things on screen, sadly.

The Orc wasn't dead yet, was he? I remember him muttering 'He is dead' to Legolamb and Gimli.
Didn't Legolamb pry Arwen's pendant from the Orc's hand and then Giml's axe finish it off. I haven't seen the movie for at least a year.
Yes, the Orc wasn't dead yet, and no, it didn't take Gimli's axe to finish him off. Gimli threatened him with his axe, but the Orc was all, "He took a tumble down the cliff" to which Legolas replied, "You lie" and then the Orc choked, gasp and died. And then Legolas saw Arwen's pendant in his hand. It is quite scary how I remember these things even after months not watching it, and yet I can't remember my tutorial homework from last week Disturbed Smilie

Let's not start with movie Aragorn-Eowyn, because I will just bore and tire everyone with my rants, as I have done with the people in real life.
I know exactly how you feel Naira! I can remember many lines from almost all the movies I've ever seen, but when it comes to something important or often times boring, then I'm totally stumped.
To me the entire Mouth of Sauron thing was just plain wrong from start to finish and left me feeling rather embarrassed. And the Mouth looked indeed cartoonish to me. Well everything which could have been so powerful and terrifying and all that ended up being just something I would rather not have to have endured. It did nothing at all to lend to that atmosphere of Mordor that each and every page of the book did. The suspense, the build up , the terror, the never ending anxiety and growing fear that dear Tolkien portrayed. I've been more frightened at my daughter's high school where many of the older teens drive about in their cars with actual revolvers in there hands pretending to shoot other kids or adults as they walk by. Makes you feel weak in the knees.
I think what PJ was trying to create was a being who still had human features but greatly distorted, the fact that he had eyes but were permantly concealed under his helm so that he couldn't see and he tried to make the Mouth of Sauron say dreadful things (like the killing of Frodo) but with a sarcastic comical humour to him. When Mouth of Sauron said about Frodo being dead he clearly did not have the slightest simpathy even in his heart of hearts and mocked his death. What makes this different from an Orc saying it is that he was once a Man, not so long ago and a very noble man in his time. Unlike Orcs he was born with the feelings of pity and sympathy but by the time he had endured Sauron he had none left.

Whether you think he failed or succeeded in creating this is another matter. I think he did a good job with his OWN idear of mouth of Sauron but hit a bit off the mark with the book-version.
Yes, you're right, once again Lord of All, that Peter Jackson did sort of distorted the features of The Mouth of Sauron and that he was born with pity and sympathy and when he got enslaved by Sauron, he had none left. He was born in a filthy rich Black Numenorean family that owned part of Nurn and a stream in Mordor and had multiudes of slaves farming the lands around Nurn and then he somehow became the Mouth of Sauron.

Namarie!
That is a good point, I will t hink on that. I wonder what the Mouth of Sauron looked like when he was young, before he drew evil to him and decided to take the low road and harm and destroy. I would have liked to know.oh well.