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Thread: Theoden vs. Denethor

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Bottom of Page    Message Board > The Return of the King > Theoden vs. Denethor   [1] [2] >>
Eomer and Faramir? Remember that Faramir was greatly underestimated as both a leader and a warrior. I imagine a kinda Davy Crocket moment between the two of them where Faramir tries to smile Eomer into submission LOL!

And my fondness for THeoden aside, Denethor was such a raving lunatic, I think even Boromir would have been afraid to face him in one of his "raves." So you'd have to quantify - pre lunatic Denethor, or post lunatic? Pre lunatic, I'd go for Theodin.

Eomer vs Boromir would have been a great sight!
In his prime (when he was a rival of the incognito Aragorn), Denéthor would have bested Théoden ; however, after he became steward, he ruled with his mind rather than with his arm and thus his fighting prowess went to seed. Therefore, in their old age, Théoden would have won, especially if he could be ahorse during the contest; yet on foot it might be limited to a draw.
I don't think you should underestimate Denethor, he may seem old and wizened but he has the superior mind, and the strength of Numenor in him still, I reckon he could give Theoden a run for his money still...
LIES all lies you have be corputed by him. You should burn along with him in the prye with him. The blood of Numnore has lessened in him. Well i just like Thoden due to the hero aspect like everyone else.
I don't think it should be forgotten either that Denethor had spent many years locked in a battle of wills with Sauron himself, through one of the Palantir stones. Though the struggle had turned him into a depressent, it had not actually corrupted him. When you consider what the same act had done to a great wizard like Saruman, I think it demonstrates just how powerful Denethor actually was in his prime.
During the LOTR books, however, you only really see Denethor after his struggle. At this stage the rejuvinated Theoden would perhaps have bested him in combat.
I just thought someone should take the opposite view, no need to burn me, is there? Well, it is cold in here, go on then...
Not to be rude but i have to ask what size pyre are you? 8 or 9? I would just feel like a fool if i got the wrong size.
I agree with Plastic actually. Denethor would have won - come on, the bloke still slept in his armour!
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'lest with age the body should grow soft and timid'

Mentally stronger too - even Sauron could not conquer his mind (and Theoden succumbed to Sauron's minion's minion).

My money's on Gondor.



[Edited on 21/5/2002 by DangerMouse]
Yeah, you'll have to burn DM too! And a pyre about the same size as the one used to burn Vader on Endor ought to work, we're about the same size.
I'm about Gimli's size...well, a bit taller. Make sure you chuck enough fuel on, I want to be at least medium rare.
I had forgotten that Denéthor slept in his armor, my money is now on him. Besides, Snowmane was getting old and Denéthor, as Steward, could afford a great war horse.
Two old men having a fight might be tedious. For real sport how about Eomer vs Boromir (preferably pre-death)?
I'd have to go with Boromir on that one. I don't believe it was his being the eldest son of the Steward that made him the "Captain-General of Gondor", but his prowess; and he was said to take after Denéthor in that.

I think a more even match would have been Éomer vs Faramir: a toss-up, I think.
Ooo tough one that.

I'd say Boromir, because, if I may quote Faramir:
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"So even was my brother Boromir: a man of prowess, and for that he was accounted the best man in Gondor. And very valiant indeed he was: no heir of Minas Tirith has for long years been so harly in toil, so onward into battle, or blown a mightier note on the great Horn."


Money on Gondor, again, although I'm not too sure of this one.

I guess that begs the question: Which is stronger - Rohan or Gondor? Around the War of the Ring, without Denethor, Theoden & Aragorn.
referring to the original Theoden vs. Denethor one, I'd go with Theoden for a pretty simple reason, isn't Denethor dead?... But if Denethor wasn't dead he'd probably win, he's fierce.
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referring to the original Theóden vs. Denethor one, I'd go with Theóden for a pretty simple reason, isn't Denethor dead?... But if Denethor wasn't dead he'd probably win, he's fierce.
Isn't Theóden also dead? Maybe we could have the battle of two old dead guys. Very Big Grin Smilie Except I think one assumption for this fantasy bout, was that they both be at the height of their prowess.
What do we know of Theoden or Denethor at the height of their prowess? My vote goes for Theoden simply because he's the more likeable of the two. Any man that would burn his own son is the pits in my estimation. I can picture him groveling at the feet of the witch king on the battlefield. Besides, who could best the king of Rohan on horseback?
Theoden Theoden go Theoden! Heehee. Sorry but I am a horse person so I love Rohan. But really Denethor is stronger. He slept with his mail on? I don't remember that. Fast Asleep Smilie (My smiley has a nightcap, no chain mail!)
As much as I'd like Theoden to win this one I think Denethor would, he's so much stronger although I think Eowyn would give him a run for his money - woohoo !!!Big Smile Smilie
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I'll let you know what I think when I read where the part where Denethor and Theoden are introduced,
I'm afraid you won't be able to read that bit Sheryl... Not in LotR at any rate. They don't actually get to meet each other.

The closest they get to each other in LotR is about the time Denethor is attempting to fling himself and Faramir on a funeral pyre, while Theoden is about to ride to his glorious death against the Witchking outside the city walls.

Whoever may or may not have won this hypothetical duel is irrelevant really. What can be said, however, is that Theoden (who had been under Saruman's spell) managed to pull himself together in the end and die bravely with dignity, while Denethor (who had been under Sauron's spell) did not.

Although Sauron's grip would have been a harder one to break free of, Denethor failed in the end to do what Theoden had.
I`ll let you know what I think when I read where the part where Denethor and Theoden are introduced, then I`ll have a clearer image. (Hopefully!) Wink Smilie
Boromir and Denethor definately, but if in their youth, I think Theoden would have won. Denethor had much more essential power than Theoden, with the blood of Numenor and the palantir, etc.
Theody! Theoden will win! And about boromir against eomer...Boromir no doubt...However, I chose theoden to win because I really liked him and well, I chose him because I liked him better. But when it comes down to it, Denethor will whup Theody's a** so hard that he won't be able to sit for the west of his life Smoke Smilie
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He is a bit of a wuss Wink Smilie


I must say that he got his wuss days and his brave daysWink Smilie

That`s true, except about the wussy parts, he has off days okay, just like everyone else on this website. No one`s perfect.


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If you look in the story game you`ll find he tries to rescue Aule actually.



When in the name of Eru did Legolas ever try to save me, a Vala ?!?!?! If anyone would save anyone it would be ME who saved Legolamb.....Do not insult me like that....Think that me a mighty Vala needs the help of a petty elf! BAH!! NEVER!!! So Angry Smilie


I`ll tell you. I sent him to go rescue you, but you broke free as he was about to save a valar under destress. Or should I say damsal? I didn`t mean to insult. Oh and he is not a petty elf, it`s just like me calling you a petty vallar!!

Oh and if you think you`re insullted, how do you think I feel? I feel insulted from all the bad things everyone`s been saying about him. Imagine if Orlando was on this site right now, how do you think he`d feel? Huh? Do you really think he`d aprove of people calling him a wuss and saying how bad that character was.

If I was Orlando and I was on this site, I would feel greatly affended! Mad Smilie I would think: well at least I`m an actor, I have a good career, probably better than alot of people`s. (No affence.) I might say their a wuss but then I would bite my tongue and not sink down to their level.

I`m sure that I should take the advice from Stonehelm and remember you and a couple of others are bad influences. Big Laugh Smilie Only joking. I bet you`re thinking, I wish she`d never come back now, well I have and you`re going to have put up with a nightmare of an 11 year old! Big Laugh Smilie
NONONONONONOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Théoden vs Denethor with boxing gloves on!Big Laugh Smilie Big Laugh Smilie Who would win???
I don`t know Den, so my money`s on Theoden. Big Smile Smilie

You better win this fight!!! Big Laugh Smilie
All right....LADIES AND GENTLEMEN!!! IN THE LEFT CORNER WEARING GREEN TRUNKS WITH A WHITE HORSE MOTIVE TTHHHHHÉÉÉÉÉÉOOODDEEENNNN!!!!!!!! AND IN THE RIGHT CORNER IN THE BLACK TRUNKS WITH THE WHITE TOWER SYMBOL DEEEEENNNNEEETTTHHHHOOORRRR!!!!!!!!!

DING-DING!!

Théoden goes forward and gives Denethor the real wackadilly punch....Helm Hammerhand style....then Denethor throws a fake left hook and follows up with a humongous manadiggelynumenor punch and Théoden get´s pinched in between the ropes in the upper corner....but what´s that? Théoden´s trustworthy horse Snowmane can´t stand the slaughter and jumps on Denethor´s back and he get´s paralysed and see no more fight....OHHH THE HUMANITY.....

HEHHEE how about that fight?
Sheryl you got the prizemoney! Big Laugh Smilie
HURRAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I got the money, betting £100, and I didn`t lose a penny!

Heheehee. Sorry that was supposed to be to myself.
YUP!!!!
I`m sorry to disappoint anyone but as far as I know, I think Legata_Greenleaf will say the same, Legolas will beat anyone`s that is born. (Or breathing!)

Just thought like throwing that in. Gimli would tie with Aragorn and Gandalf.
I don't think Legolamb would be able to defeat the Balrog... what would the Elf do ?? Shoot some arrows ?
It would be quite funny watching i figure.
No, Lego-lass would be no match for the Balrog. It took an Elf Lord like Glorfindel of Gondor, who although he defeated a Balrog, he also lost his life in the doing.
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... and for Glorfindel the beloved many were the songs they sang, under the willowmeads of Nantathren in the waning of the year. - from Chapter 23, 'Of Tour and the Fall of Gondolin', of The Silmarillion.
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Oooooh, I sense some bias in your thinking that Legolas would win over anyone Sheryl. Wink Smilie


What`s bais?
For one thing he`s not a lamb!! And for another he`s not a lass, because that`s a girl and that`s saying I`m a lez!!I am not!!
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don't think Legolamb would be able to defeat the Balrog
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For one thing he`s not a lamb
Legolamb was a character in the LotR spoof, Bored of the Rings, Sheryl. I think Grondy might be right with Lego-lass though. He is a bit of a wuss Wink Smilie
He is NO wuss! In what ways is he a wuss then? Go on tell me. If you look in the story game you`ll find he tries to rescue Aule actually.

About baising Legolas, yes because I`m behind him 100%!! Unlike some people. Only messing with ya.
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It took an Elf Lord like Glorfindel of Gondor, who although he defeated a Balrog, he also lost his life in the doing.


You mean Gondolin not Gondor right Grondy?

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He is a bit of a wuss Wink Smilie


I must say that he got his wuss days and his brave daysWink Smilie


Quote:
If you look in the story game you`ll find he tries to rescue Aule actually.



When in the name of Eru did Legolas ever try to save me, a Vala ?!?!?! If anyone would save anyone it would be ME who saved Legolamb.....Do not insult me like that....Think that me a mighty Vala needs the help of a petty elf! BAH!! NEVER!!! So Angry Smilie
I agree with Legolamb being a wuss, but especially in the movies then : in the movies he just shoots some arrows which annoys after u see the 500th Orc fall with an arrow in his neck/forehead. For the rest our dear Legolamb does nothing else but enthralling our female movie-goers with his looks. In one word : wuss.
I think PJ should switch some of Legolamb's girliness over to Arwen and some of Arwen's manliness over to Legolamb in the movies Big Laugh Smilie
Aulë: Yes I thought I had written Gondolin, that was my intent. Sometimes my fingers type a word they feel will make me look foolish; they think it will keep me from getting a swollen head. I guess they know me too well. Elf With a Big Grin Smilie

Sheryl: We have been pulling your leg just because you let us. Ignore us and we will crawl back under our rocks.

Moderator Smilie That said, we have too many threads lately that have degenerated into back and forth conversations that have nothing to due with the topic.

Please stay on topic and take these meaningless Legolas conversations to a Tavern. Moderator Smilie
Sorry Grondy. What was this thread about anyway? I`ve forgot.
Well my final say is that Theoden will win and take ALL! Denethor is going to be in his coffin by the time Theoden finishes with him!!
Rohan vs Gondor / Theoden vs Denethor / Eomer vs Boromir


Now I tell you all something ;-)
You must see this whole thing in two ways.
There are two fights. The figth on the horse , who wins this................Rohan. Rohan is better then Gondor at the hores and Tolkien is telling this often. I think a fight on the horse Theoden and Eomer are winnig a battle or a duel against Denethor and Boromir ( or when you want Faramir)

Okay then look at a fight on the ground, a foot -fight. I think them Gondor people have realy the better skil and win.

And one more thing to all the people who want to tell use that Theoden is weak! Dont look at the movie (the movie is realy sh...... in this point ; sorry but it is so! ) Read the book and you dont find such a Person, read the book and you find the KING OF ROHAN, a great Person an a great King, not such a pitiful creature, better not such a sniveller as he must be in this movie!

And my last thing what I say befor I shut my mouse for ever: NEVER NEVER there want be never a war Rohan against Gondor Who is thinking over such unreal, inconceivable thing????Haeh

now bey bey and have a nice night
Who`s going to win overall though? Not being baised while making this descision please. Then we could get a true answer. Big Smile Smilie Thank you.
OK, simple answer: Denethor would cane Theoden in a fight. Smoke Smilie
A noble man with Numenoran blood should always defeat an old, crippled King of Rohan. Being on horse or not.
Depends on the environment of the fighting and if it´s on horseback or not!
Yes, I agree on that.....forgetI said the thing before...I agree with yo Virumor!
Yes Val but Sauron was much more powerful then Saruman....so you´ll have to put that in consideration too!
Also, Theoden was helped to shrug off Saruman's grip with the helping hand of Gandalf (the White), whilst Denethor had to do it on his own. Second, Denethor had to deal with Sauron much longer after he first used the Palantir, since the struggle of wills with Sauron caused him to age fast.
This only proved that Denethor was less powerful than Aragorn, who faced Sauron in/over the Palantir of Orthanc and managed to push him away. Of course, Aragorn was the rightful owner/user of the Palantir so you have to put this into consideration, too.
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