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I think you're right; the Scouring of the Shire probably won't be in the film...PJ already cut the scene where Sam sees what terrible things are happening in the Shire in Galadriel's mirror...I think, though, as much as I'd like to see it, the scouring of the Shire could stand to be cut more than some other parts of the story. (If he hadn't put in more about Arwen, there might have been just enough time to do the scouring, but hey...I think I've already griped about that Tongue Smilie )
Even if PJ doesn't put in the Scouring of the Shire I hope the ending will be when Frodo goes to the Grey Havens. I cannot imagine any other way the trilogy should be ended.

[Edited on 9/1/2003 by Naira]
I think the scouring of the Shire is a very important part of the story, because it shows that hobbits can be brave and courageous too.
It does a lot for hobbit pride and patriotism, because throughout most of the story Merry and Pippin felt like excess baggage and it lets the audience know (those who have not read the book) that they're not just wimpy little creatures that always need 'big people' to look out for them.
Conclusion: it would be a shame to cut that from the movie, but I'm pretty sure they'll at least have the ending with the Grey Havens.
Really remi? that would be great! To bad it won't be in the regular version!
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It does a lot for hobbit pride and patriotism, because throughout most of the story Merry and Pippin felt like excess baggage and it lets the audience know (those who have not read the book) that they're not just wimpy little creatures that always need 'big people' to look out for them.
That is true, but once they got to stand before their separate enemies Merry and Pippin each showed the quality of their courage:

Merry when he stabs the Nazgķl Lord in the back of the knee, allowing Eowyn to fulfill the prophesy of the original Elf-Lord Glorfindel.

Pippin in slaying the great troll-chief, thus saving the life of Beregond, ex-Guard of the Tower of Gondor, who had shown Pippin the ropes, after Pippin had sworn his service to Denethor, in payment for his son Boromir having died defending the two hobbits from the Orcs.

I don't see how PJ is going to tell this part of Pippin's adventure, it is where he becomes a man-hobbit instead of the silly tweenager who was always putting his foot into it. Merry's part is necessary in the overall development of the main plot; Pippin's in the development of his character. Of course Pippin with the help of then Guardsman Beregond saves Faramir's life, but that no longer had any direct bearing on Frodo's mission, while Merry's had.

Of course if Pippin hadn't helped save Faramir's life, Theoden might not of died; however, then Gandalf would have had to again stand up to the Nazgķl Lord, and who knows where the story would have gone in that parallel universe. Elf With a Big Grin Smilie
I'm pretty sure I heard PJ or someone else say in the commentary on the extended FotR DVD that there is NO SCOURING OF THE SHIRE AT ALL.

Please, make this well know to all your LotR-fan friends so we can minimize the whining when the last movie is out and avoid a reapeat of the Shelob-moved-to-RotK incident where everyone acted shocked and dismayed despite the fact that this change was well known and much publicized all over the internet!

Phew... take a breath Prog...
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once they got to stand before their separate enemies Merry and Pippin each showed the quality of their courage

A good point Grondy, I had not forgotten this, but I was also thinking of the rest of the Hobbit race.
Prog - You are correct. In the Directors' commentary during the FotR extended DVD (an excellent feature for those who have overlooked it, such as myself) PJ does in fact state, regarding the Scouring of the Shire: "we don't have it in our movie". He states this in his voice over during the Mirror of Galadriel scene, fyi.
Of course, to be loyal to Hollywood, the movie has to end with the marriage of Aragorn and Arwen and later Sam and Rosie.

After this, we'll see the dramatic departure of Frodo from Middle-Earth in the Grey Havens... I'd bring some handkerchiefs to the cinemas in december...
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Of course, to be loyal to Hollywood, the movie has to end with the marriage of Aragorn and Arwen and later Sam and Rosie.


I think that being loyal to Hollywood means they add some trashy scene!! Big Smile Smilie

[Edited on 23/1/2003 by Stonehelm]
Who`s Rosie??????????????
I`ve never heard of her!
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Who`s Rosie??????????????
I`ve never heard of her!
Read The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King. Until those who haven't yet read the books do so, our speculation about the movie in this thread will be mostly over their heads.

In answer to the question: Rosie Cotton is the girl Sam dances with in the first movie, (or was it only on the extended DVD?) and returns to marry, and with whom he has a daughter Elanor (so named after the flowers the Hobbits saw in Lothlůrien) about six months before all the ringbearers (less Sam and Gollum) depart from the Grey Havens and sail off into the sunset. THE END.

This was actually a very sad moment for most who have read the story, and it isn't until later that we come to see that this was actually the best for the ringbearers, and was only sad for we readers and the three hobbits left standing on the quay (pier, wharf, dock) who then went home and got on with their lives.

And that "THE END" takes place just two-thirds into the third volume, the final third is made up of appendices and indices which explain some of what went before and some of what came after, and even much more than that. Cool Elf Smilie

I say again "Read the books!" so when PJ makes his movie diferently, you will know from where we have been speculating. Teacher Smilie
I was just thinking, if there is no scouring of the Shire, then how will Saruman die? And Grima? Will the event take place somewhere else instead?
Grima Wormtongue is turned into a newt and joins a advertising stable along with the gecko, the duck, the frogs, and the ferret. He makes a career playing the part of a slippery weasel. Saruman is hoist upon his own petard as in escaping from the Tower of Orthanc, he gets caught in a trap that he forgot he had placed ever so many years before. Gandalf finds him there, still alive approximately 243 years after Aragorn and Arwen had sailed to Valinor having left the Winged Crown of Gondor to their grandson, Imadoor. NOT

[Edited on 5/2/2003 by Grondmaster]
Saruman gets kebabed on a pointy wheel, probably after falling out of Orthanc, or maybe he gets pushed by Grima, rather than lobbing out the palantir? Just a thought, we've seen the kebab piccy haven't we...
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I don't see how PJ is going to tell this part of Pippin's adventure, it is where he becomes a man-hobbit instead of the silly tweenager who was always putting his foot into it. Merry's part is necessary in the overall development of the main plot; Pippin's in the development of his character. Of course Pippin with the help of then Guardsman Beregond saves Faramir's life, but that no longer had any direct bearing on Frodo's mission, while Merry's had.

Of course if Pippin hadn't helped save Faramir's life, Theoden might not of died; however, then Gandalf would have had to again stand up to the Nazgķl Lord, and who knows where the story would have gone in that parallel universe. Elf With a Big Grin Smilie


Grondmaster, I donīt really understand what you mean with this.....Could you explain it to me? I read the books quite long ago but I donīt really remember this..Could you tell me what chapter this is? thanks!
And by the way The Scouring of the Shire is a very important part is what I think. It describes Sarumans fate and for what use the soil Galadriel gave Sam is for.
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Grondmaster, I donīt really understand what you mean with this.....Could you explain it to me? I read the books quite long ago but I donīt really remember this..Could you tell me what chapter this is? thanks!
AulŽ the bits about Pippin and Guardsman Beregond saving Faramir is found on the last six pages of Chapter 4, 'The Siege of Gondor' and Chapter 7, 'The Pyre of Denethor' all in Book V of RotK.

In these, Pippin asks Beregond to keep Denethor's servants from taking the fire to Faramir and Denethor's pyre and then Pippin goes to fetch Gandalf from the gate as the horns of the Rohirrim sound and the Lord of the Nazgul leaves the city unconquered. That Gandalf went with Pippin to save Faramir from the flames rather than following the Nazgul, resulted in King Theoden's death and Glorfindal's prophesy coming to fruition. Teacher Smilie
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And by the way The Scouring of the Shire is a very important part is what I think. It describes Sarumans fate and for what use the soil Galadriel gave Sam is for.


Lucky Galadriel only gave Sam rope in FOtr then ain't it?
Yes Squirrel, a rope was all he got. In the book Sam was really happy to get a rope, in the movie he got disapointed cause he wanted a sword.. Shaking Head Smilie *sigh*
Nope there you are both wrong AmariŽ and PlasticSquirrel....Sam DID get some soil from Galadriel in the books, since he was a gardner and perhaps because she saw the fate of the Shire. When Saruman destroyed the Shire Sam let the wind take away the soil and then everything grew again......donīt you agree Grondy? and by the way now I recollect what you meant....I just forgot about the pyre of Denethor when Denethor wanted to burn Faramir and himself because he had seen the end of Gondor in one of FŽanors palantŪr!
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Nope there you are both wrong AmariŽ and PlasticSquirrel....Sam DID get some soil from Galadriel in the books,


Yeah, we know that, we were talking about the movies (I was attempting to crack a funny again, showing up the differences betwixt text and image)
oh okay! Big Laugh Smilie
*Grondy nods, smiles, and moves on to another thread.*
I think we can all safely agree that The Scouring of the Shire will not be in ROTK. Even though it is rumoured that ROTK will be 3 to 4 hours long adding in all they missed from TTT will mean that on time alone it can't be done - not with any justice anyway.
Saruman must get his throat cut of by GrŪma!!! It is not acceptable for Saruman to live to bring terror in the world.
HE MUST DIE!!!!!
So Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry Smilie
THE TRAITOR MUST DIE!! Wether itīs bye the hand of a hobbit, man, elf, dwarf, orc, oliphaunt, urŻk-hai, ent, spider, Tom Bombadill, Yoda, Luke Skywalker,maia or a Valar he must DIE!!!!!!!!
I will not accept his crimes to go unpunished!
I MUST SEE SOME SARUMAN BLOOD SHED!!!!!
Paint the soil of Middle-Earth with the blood of Saruman, CurunŪr, Curumno or whatever you wish to call him! KILL HIM!!! AHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAH
So Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry Smilie
The same goes for Peter Jackson! Very Evil Smilie So Angry Smilie Very Evil Smilie
I didn't know this until now.Like all of you and I think that is a werry stupid idea. Sad Smilie and for me that is a most fascinanthing part in a LOTR trilogy.Peter Jackson yo are realy silly person here but I hawe thinking that you are legend.you are really dissipoint me Very Sad Smilie Mad Smilie
Yeah, Iīm dissapointed too! Sad Smilie Only heard of it now that it might not be in the movie. I think the Scouring of the Shire is very important and that PJ must have it in the movie!
Guys - It's not going to be in there (see earlier posts). Peredhil - Perhaps you should tone it down a little.
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So Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry Smilie
THE TRAITOR MUST DIE!! Wether itīs bye the hand of a hobbit, man, elf, dwarf, orc, oliphaunt, urŻk-hai, ent, spider, Tom Bombadill, Yoda, Luke Skywalker,maia or a Valar he must DIE!!!!!!!!
I will not accept his crimes to go unpunished!
I MUST SEE SOME SARUMAN BLOOD SHED!!!!!
Paint the soil of Middle-Earth with the blood of Saruman, CurunŪr, Curumno or whatever you wish to call him! KILL HIM!!! AHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAH
So Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry Smilie


I still believe this.....]So Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry Smilie
THE TRAITOR MUST DIE!! Wether itīs bye the hand of a hobbit, man, elf, dwarf, orc, oliphaunt, urŻk-hai, ent, spider, Tom Bombadill, Yoda, Luke Skywalker,maia or a Valar he must DIE!!!!!!!!
I will not accept his crimes to go unpunished!
I MUST SEE SOME SARUMAN BLOOD SHED!!!!!
Paint the soil of Middle-Earth with the blood of Saruman, CurunŪr, Curumno or whatever you wish to call him! KILL HIM!!! AHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAH
So Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry SmilieSo Angry Smilie
Calm down now Aule, breath in... breath out. Big Smile Smilie
AulŽ, you can think that as much as you like. Wink Smilie To wish Saruman (a fictional evil character) dead and buried is something COMPLETELY different from death-treats towards living breathing human beings. Which is what I believe Tyrion meant.

A death-treat is a serious thing, it's nothing to joke about! And to say you wish the same to happen to Peter Jackson as you wish for Saruman or any other evil person is just pure *male cow poop*! None of you PJ-haters really mean you want him gagged, stabbed and buried in the garden. You can get both yourself AND this site in serious trouble by saying these things! What you do mean is that you really really really didn't like the changes he did to the lotr-story. Don't say you want to kill him, you'll be a lier. If you really hate him enough to want to stab him down you need to be locked away and heavily medicated.

All PJ has done is to make the best lotr movie ever, you can't argue about that. We all have things we are disappointed about in the movies, they are far from perfect, but they are so well made that I don't think anybody will try to do them better in the near future. No lotr movie can be as good as the book is anyway.

Phew...
Was just getting a bit tried of the kill-PJ-foundation.
Hope you donít hate me nowÖ
Of course he'll die, we've seen the kebab picture, he'll just die differently. Much more fun to watch.
Yes, Amarie. Thanks for clarifying my thoughts.
No problem.
Spared you from a lot of typing now didn't I. Elf With a Big Grin Smilie
Yes, indeed! Elf Winking Smilie
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A death-treat is a serious thing, it's nothing to joke about! And to say you wish the same to happen to Peter Jackson as you wish for Saruman or any other evil person is just pure *male cow poop*! None of you PJ-haters really mean you want him gagged, stabbed and buried in the garden. You can get both yourself AND this site in serious trouble by saying these things! What you do mean is that you really really really didn't like the changes he did to the lotr-story. Don't say you want to kill him, you'll be a lier. If you really hate him enough to want to stab him down you need to be locked away and heavily medicated.
You're right, Amarie. All this I-Hate-PJ is getting a bit out of hand. He has made the best LOTR films around, they just would have been better (in my opinion) had he included all the story, although that would have made the films generally less appealing to mass market who, unlike me, are not purists who would be willing to sit through an extra 1 or 2 hours of each of the three films. After all, what is the main aim of a movie if not to make money? I apologise to Peter Jackson (who really did a great job) and to anyone else who sees things differently from how I do.
My blow-out wasn't directed only to you Peredhil, I feared you might see it like that as it came right after your post. It was AulŽ reply that got the snowball rolling, I felt like I should explain a bit what Tyrion meant.

I would gladly sit 5 hours or more to see the perfect LOTR movie! (I'm waiting for Ross to get his hands on some HUUGE amounts of cash so he can make his version Big Laugh Smilie ) I also deeply miss the parts he took away and I could scream at some of the changes he made and cry over the others. It's just the kill-pj thing I don't like. It just seemed childish and thoughtless to me.

The FOTR movie was my guide into Tolkienís world, I had been sniffing around his works for years but had no-one to guide me to them so I got lost. I watched the other movies made earlier but they only confused me, I tried to read Silmarillion thinking it was the first book of a trilogy or something, but that was a disaster!

Then PJs FOTR came and I got really excited! I surfed the net for days before I saw it to read about the elves and the story (still really confused about it all), but when I had seen it I was hooked! I bought the LOTR book and then my confusion over the books fell in place too. If it hadn't been for PJ, I wouldn't be here now writing this and I 'd still be in the blue about Tolkienís wonderful works. I know PJS movie has done the same for many others. I know now what the real LOTR story is about and I can see all the "bad" and "wrong" things PJ did to it, but I still love them. I didn't know Tolkiens Middle-Earth before the movie came, but I feel very strongly about it even after this short time. I can understand how protective you feel about it having loved the story from early childhood. I also feel like grabbing PJ, shaking him vigorously and scream in his face "WHAT HAVE YOU DONE???" when thinking about Faramir and Gimli in TTT, but I still respect him and want to thank him for making hobbits and elves a part of my life.

The real Middle Earth lies in our hearts, no one can ever take that away from us, no matter what they do when making movies. To quote Gandalf: ..that is an encouraging thought. Big Smile Smilie
It's really too bad about how Saruman will die in the movie. I did like how in the book Grima ends his life. But more importantly is the part of how Saruman's spirit rises, and with a yearning to return to his original home looks towards the west, Valinor. At that moment a strong wind blowing from the west vaporizes his smokey spirit in a firm "NO, your not coming back meany!" sort of response from the Valar. Sauron's death was very similiar to this one, also being a Maia. Acutally they are pretty much identical. Smoke Smilie

The issue of whether or not this makes it into the movie isn't tearing me up inside, but it would be a nice addition for Lotr-fans.

[Edited on 14/2/2003 by Komosot]
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My blow-out wasn't directed only to you Peredhil, I feared you might see it like that as it came right after your post.
Don't worry, Amarie, I didn't take it like it was all my fault. I was just agreeing that death threats are a bit extreme, and I hope I have set an example for anyone else who has indulged in random, pointless putting down of PJ.
Orc Grinning Smilie Watch it AmariŽ, with a post like the one you posted above on 14/2/2003 at 14:23, were it was my turn to look for the Post of the Week, that one would have been a candidate. Elf With a Big Grin Smilie
I totally agree with that. The movie stands alone by itself as a good adaption of the book and I personally think that PJ did a great job with everything that he chose to do. I am sure that the changes in cinema were done by particular reasons. Of course the book stands out as the masterpiece but you have to admit that the movie is pretty damn good and entertaining and everytime that a part from the book came out I for one would just get this really nice feeling mixed with nostalgia that was just awesome.
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Watch it AmariŽ, with a post like the one you posted above on 14/2/2003 at 14:23, were it was my turn to look for the Post of the Week, that one would have been a candidate.

WOW!
/me is blushing. I never ever thought I would hear such nice words about a posting of mine! Thank you Grondy! Elf With a Big Grin Smilie
Very interesting thread indeed...

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So what u really are saying is that we shouldn't be able to have our own opinion about the works of Tolkien (which is what the movie comes from...), that we all love so much???


No. We're all entitled to our opinions, and the presence of such forums is for the expression of these opinions. But I do believe also that one can indeed be civil about it without resorting to death threats and other horrifying descriptions of torture. I'm quite sure Tolkien would agree with that don't you think? Wink Smilie
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My blow-out wasn't directed only to you Peredhil, I feared you might see it like that as it came right after your post. It was AulŽ reply that got the snowball rolling,


AmariŽ
You mean that what I said was wrong? Shouldnīt Saruman pay for the treason against Ilķvatar and the Valars? And I have NEVER said I wish PJ dead....I have joked about it....but that was just for letting some steam out....But I wouldnīt wish him dead.....He did a nice movie....but it p****s me off that he didnīt follow the books very well.....I mean they should if then re-name it to Peter Jacksons vision of The Lord of the Rings....donīt you think? Smoke Smilie

[Edited on 17/2/2003 by Valedhelgwath]
No no no AulŽ, you were right!! Saruman desevers to burn! So Angry Smilie

What I meant by your post getting the snowball running was that you seemed the think Tyrion was telling you to tone it down. I just wanted to explain he was talking to Peredhil and the post just got it's own life from there. You've been a well-behaved vala, AulŽ. No need to shout at you. Smile Smilie
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No no no AulŽ, you were right!! Saruman desevers to burn! So Angry Smilie

What I meant by your post getting the snowball running was that you seemed the think Tyrion was telling you to tone it down. I just wanted to explain he was talking to Peredhil and the post just got it's own life from there. You've been a well-behaved vala, AulŽ. No need to shout at you. Smile Smilie


Hehehe thank you! Indeed I am a well-behaved Valar. Mahal is what my children call me Smoke Smilie

[Edited on 26/2/2003 by AulŽ]