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Smile Smilie Smile Smilie Mad Smilie Smile Smilie
Sorry, I slipped and hit the wrong key!! woops
ANY WAY:
I wanted to say the usual: "Hey I'm new"
So here it comes:
Hey I'm the newbe, please be kind. Smile Smilie
I Care a great deal about Tolkien and all of his works, though by most standards I am still new to the whole World he created. I am a fulltime college student, that never sleeps which is why I'm posting soo late! JUST wanted to "jump in" and talk with you guys: so post whatever you want and forgive my slip up!!!
Hi there, Out_Of_Sheol. Welcome to Planet Tolkien. What key did you miss? Ha Ha Ha Smilie

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please be kind.


Of couse we'll be kind. We're a "family friendly" site..... and once we've got you fattened up, we'll pop you in the pot and eat you Very Evil Smilie

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I Care a great deal about Tolkien and all of his works, though by most standards I am still new to the whole World he created.


Anyone who cares about Tolkien will fit right in around here. We have among our membership a wide range of members whose knowledge and experience of Tolkien's work covers a broad spectrum. All are welcome because it's the questions asked by those who do not know something which promotes the answers from those who do. We hope we are a valuable source of information for those wishing to know more.

So, what are you studying? Where you from? There are threads all over the place asking that sort of thing, but you might as well tell us here if you want to.

Look forward to seeing you around.

Hi, I'm new as well and have finally worked out how to post. I've also managed to pop into the chatroom a couple of times - friendly people but no one talks about Tolkien! I love LotR and read it every few years. Had some problems at first with the first film but am now in the spirit of them and love them all. After starting several times and failing to finish I have finally read the Silmarrilion - and need more! Has anyone read The Complete History of Middle Earth and is it any good (silly question) ?
A warm welcome to the both of you! Hope you enjoy your time here at PT! Happy Elf Smilie

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After starting several times and failing to finish I have finally read the Silmarrilion - and need more! Has anyone read The Complete History of Middle Earth and is it any good (silly question) ?


Congrats on finally finishing The Silmarillion Vee! That's my favorite book of all time! As far as more stuff from Tolkien on M.E., I highly suggest reading Unfinished Tales after the Sil (before H.O.M.E.). Have you read The Hobbit (silly question, but I had to ask)? For questions about H.O.M.E., talk to Val. He’s really one of the only “regulars” on this site that has read most of it. FYI, you’ll find that most members on this site have an extensive knowledge of LOTR, The Sil., The Hobbit, and UT, but very few here have treaded into the deep, dark waters of H.O.M.E. yet. Anyway, enjoy your journey!
Read Smilie
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Have you read The Hobbit (silly question, but I had to ask)? For questions about H.O.M.E., talk to Val.


I read the Hobbit years ago and tried again recently but the language felt more like Enid Blyton than Tolkien. I am, however, caught in the wonder of Middle Earth and its sadness and need more. HOMEs are on my birthday list. I shall add UT as well. Thanks.
Welcome to P-T Out_Of_Sheol and Vee. Happy Elf Smilie

There aren't any silly or stupid questions as I've said before, because someone else also wants to know the answers, but have been to timid to ask. And sure the answers may have already been posted somewhere in a lost or obscure post somewhere on this message board, but by bringing them up again a whole new group of members get a chance to share their views and the old ones may get to see things from a different prospective.

Vee: You should definitely read Unfinished Tales prior to starting the HOME series.

Don't plan on the HOME books being a continuation of the joy you have found in the earlier publications. There are parts of these twelve volumes that are very interesting and parts that are dry as dust. There is much that is new, or more detailed, and much repetition, as well as showing the evolution of parts of Tolkien's tales as they developed over the decades of his writing life. However, don't take just my word on this, listen to others who have gotten into them deeper, for I have barely scratched the surface of this series.
Thanks Grondmaster. UT is now on my list.

I know people who love LotR but cannot bear The Silmarillion and I admit that until I persevered with it I didn't appreciate it either. I certainly do now. The language is beautiful. If HOME is anything like the Silmarillion then I shall enjoy it. But - UT first!
Thanks everyone for posting Animated Wink Smilie

Valehelgwath:
Don't worry about the "key" Ignore Smilie ) Just a little mistake on my part. But for clarification: the "key" that I was talking about was the "return" button, since I accidentally pressed it before I had a chance to type anything, so I had to post myself, so there would be something written here. (I know silly hobbits!) Wink Smilie
Thanks for the welcome though Smile Smilie .
Here's a little about me:
I'm in my third year at USF (U of South Florida) and I'm studying computer science. So I'm one of those computer geeks One Eye Smilie
Yet my interests sometimes makes me much of a paradox, for I'm passionately into art of all types: music, (I'm a flutist), voice, theatre, as well as (what people normally think is) art, such as drawling and painting (my favorite art medium is pastels and pencils {so far, but recently I got into colored pencils, and they’re the greatest thing!!! Wink Smilie }) .
I also read entirely too much and whenever I have a spare moment, I find myself writing stories (though I have never posted any online Sad Smilie , but hopefully that will change Smile Smilie )
I love computer games, but I can't call myself a gamer since I have not played any good ones in a while...
And yes Big Smile Smilie , I will have loads of questions to ask all of you guys here about characters, places, events, etc. about Tolkien's World. But hopefully I will be able to answer some questions as well. I find that I tend to pay close attention to details (perhaps that's a good thing or a bad thing, depends on who you ask). When I go about learning something (or if it becomes a passion, which so many things end up becoming) then I will spend enormous amounts of energy studying about the topic to the umpteenth degree. Not that I'm too picky or anal--cause well--being a hobbit, I can't take things too seriously. Big Smile Smilie
In short, I like to have fun, but I do have an "addictive" personality, so I basically average out to a (what is the name for them...oh yes) perfectionist.
Let's just say that I make a great fan (whatever that's worth).

Vee:
Welcome to you! Glad to see that we came in together. Cool Smilie

Grondmaster and Elfstone:
I have the Silmarillion, but have not really been dedicated enough to read all the way through, so far I have just been jumping to chapters that drew my attention. As far as the other books you guys mentioned, UT and HOME and even the Hobbit (for that matter), I have not read yet.

Once I read LOTR, I started looking for information about Tolkien (the man), I found that I wanted to know more about his philosophies and his background that inspired him to write his stories. (But that's a whole other topic!!!)
But yes, I do want to read more of his other books, when the time is right.

But, I think I've talked (or typed) enough about myself, so what about everybody else?
To pick a topic, what types of music do you guys listen too?
I’m kind of an 'everything goes", yet on the top of my list would probably be Christian, Techno, Punk, Rock, Pop. (Though mediation music is great).

OR here's a LOTR question: Does anyone know more information on Gildor Inglorion? All that I know of this character is that he was the leader of the Elf band that helped Frodo (by scaring off the Black Rider) while Frodo was still in the Shire.
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To pick a topic, what types of music do you guys listen too?
I’m kind of an 'everything goes", yet on the top of my list would probably be Christian, Techno, Punk, Rock, Pop. (Though mediation music is great).

OR here's a LOTR question: Does anyone know more information on Gildor Inglorion? All that I know of this character is that he was the leader of the Elf band that helped Frodo (by scaring off the Black Rider) while Frodo was still in the Shire.



Music - most things except rap. Yo Yo Ma is fantastic. Symposium, Dandy Warhols, Jools Holland, Jim White plus all the old rock stuff and Beatles! Simon & Garfunkel, Bach etc. I *love* choral stuff so the soundtrack to LoTR is wonderful. So many more......

As for Gildor, didn't he become Arwen?

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Once I read LOTR, I started looking for information about Tolkien (the man), I found that I wanted to know more about his philosophies and his background that inspired him to write his stories. (But that's a whole other topic!!!)
But yes, I do want to read more of his other books, when the time is right.


I had a look at some of the transcripts for the series of teach-ins.... very interesting. Have a look. Are these sessions still going or have they been done to death?

Hi Vee. Welcome to Planet Tolkien.

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For questions about H.O.M.E., talk to Val.


When I read HOME, I feel like I'm an Historian sifting through piles of papers searching for some hidden knowledge. Tolkien spent most of his adult life writing the Silmarillion and his notes were rather extensive. Apparently there are boxes and boxes of them, often written in old note books, the backs of calenders or any other bits of parer JRR came across. His son Christopher has spent a good deal of his own time sifting through these hand-written notes, trying to put them into a chronological order and make sense of them. The result is Unfinished Tales and the dozen or so HOME books. UT is really good, going into a bit more detail than the Silmarillion did. HOME, however, is heavy going. You will often read two or three versions of the same text, with the story broken up with Christopher's notes explaining where the text came from and when it was written. The trouble is, the majority of that text is early drafts of the Silmarillion tales, which JRR later amended. The earliest tales are almost unrecognisable from what they became. Saying that, if you do persevere with them, you will find some interesting snippets (only you then have to work out whether the gem you have found is a final product, or something that was later changed. My favourite is HOME 10 Morgoth's Ring. If after reading UT you still want more, I'd recommend jumping to that one.

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I find myself writing stories (though I have never posted any online , but hopefully that will change )


We have a fan fiction section containing stories written by our members. If you have any Middle Earth based stories you'd like putting in there, contact Allyssa who heads the Writer's guild. We have a small panel of other members who decide whether the story is of sufficient quality to be placed up there. One of our writers, Cathol-linn won a couple of awards at the Gathering last month.

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Does anyone know more information on Gildor Inglorion?


Gildor was a Noldor of the House of Finarfin (more particularly, the House of Finrod Felegund). At the time of the War of the Ring he lived at Rivendell, but was apt to make pilgrimages to the Tower Hills where he was able to use the Palantir to look West. He survived the war and eventually sailed into the West with the Ringbearers.

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I had a look at some of the transcripts for the series of teach-ins.... very interesting. Have a look. Are these sessions still going or have they been done to death?


The Silmarillion Reading Discussion Group finished last Autumn. What was left, however, was a guide to help new readers better understand the Silmarillion. I still regularly check the threads in there, though, because they are still open if anyone wants to raise a point we haven't covered.

Rednell's LotR group in Bilbo's Study is only about halfway through, but I think it's been put on hold for a little while until this new site is running properly once more. I think now the chatroom problems have been sorted, it shouldn't be too long before they are running again.
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As for Gildor, didn't he become Arwen?
No, that was the Elf Lord Glorfindel who made a journey to Sweden Elf With a Big Grin Smilie —Oops! belay that—whom PJ replaced with Arwen.

Gildor Inglorion was in communication with both Cirdan at the Grey Havens and Elrond at Rivendell and sent warning to Elrond the Frodo was on the road carrying a great burden, that the Black Riders were about, and that Gandalf was missing.

I know we had a little bit about Gildor Inglorion somewhere, but I didn't find him under Characters, but I know he isn't the Gildor found in the Silmarillion's index. Maybe Val will remember more about him and his history.
Thanks Val (is it OK to call you Val?). I love the way Tolkien's mind worked and enjoyed the historical side of The Silmarillion so I'm looking forward to reading UT and HOME. Woe betide my husband if I don't get them for my birthday!!!!

Grondmaster - yep, sorry about the error - all those elf names confuse me. Too many Gs and Cs.
Yeah...well...um... welcome to the new kids on the block. Hope yall enjoy your stay here in our little slice of paradise.
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(is it OK to call you Val?)


No problem Vee. Most the others, including myself, do.
Thanks guys (Val, Grondmaster, and Vee) for the info on Gildor. I writing him into a fan fiction and didn't want to upset anyone if I had incorrect information Big Smile Smilie
Here's another question: I heard that an Elf will only give his/her heart away once, so if his/her partner dies s/he won't remarry. Is this true? And if so, where can it be found (from Tolkien's many writings)?
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I heard that an Elf will only give his/her heart away once, so if his/her partner dies s/he won't remarry. Is this true? And if so, where can it be found (from Tolkien's many writings)?
I don't know, but if was true, when Feanor's mommy (Miriel) went to the Hall of Mandos, his father (Finwe) then married (Indis) resulting in two more sons (Fingolfin and Finarfin) and much jealousy. So maybe the dificulty this helped generate led the Elves to subsequently adopt this policy.

The above really means I'm in over my head on this subject and had better wait for someone else to bail me out. Dunce Smilie
Welcome to PT, Out_of_Sheol

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Once I read LOTR, I started looking for information about Tolkien (the man), I found that I wanted to know more about his philosophies and his background that inspired him to write his stories. (But that's a whole other topic!!!)
But yes, I do want to read more of his other books, when the time is right.


My favorite Tolkien resource is The Letters of JRR Tolkien. A real treasure trove of Tolkien's thoughts and philosophies. I also prefer Carpenter's biography because it was authoriized by Tolkien and doesn't contain a lot of speculation, be they well founded or not. For a study, my favorite is Tom Shippey's JRR Tolkien: Author of the Century. And if you want to get a good overview of Tolkien's art, JRR Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator, although, an aquaintance of mine who is an artist felt Christina Scull may have been a bit too critical. The real treat is the number of Tolkien's ilustrations which fill the book.
I hope this is of some help to you.
We have started the LOTR discussions again on Saturdays. This week we had a quiz but if you wish to refresh, we are reading the last 3 chapters of The Two Towers.
Cheers.
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I heard that an Elf will only give his/her heart away once, so if his/her partner dies s/he won't remarry. Is this true? And if so, where can it be found (from Tolkien's many writings)?


As Grondy mentioned, when Miriel died Finwe remarried.

This did cause a problem for the Valar, however, and Manwe did have to make a binding decision should such events occur. The problem was that Elves did indeed marry for life, and there were no divorces. Life for an Elf is a long time, however, as they are immortal within the life of Ea. Even if they die, their time in the halls of Mandos is usually not forever, and after time they are free to resume their former lives.

Miriel caused a problem in that she did not wish to ever leave the Halls of Mandos. This left Finwe, who wanted more sons, without a wife, and little prospect of her ever coming back to him. Manwe, therefore made a mandate, that in these circumstances an Elf could remarry provided the "dead" spouse swore they would never again leave the Halls of Mandos. Finwe as well as being the first to do so, is the only one I know of to have remarried.

Sorry to break in but I'm new too and wanted to say hello. I've been lurking for a while but decided to join in as you all seem so nice.
Smile Smilie
I've been to other places which scared me off because there seemed to be so many arguments going on. Sad Smilie
I've been very impressed with how much people know about LOTR. I thought I was fairly familiar with the books but I've been put to shame. I recently reread the Silmarillion so that I had a vagu idea about some of the threads I've read and I hope to be able to contribute.
Welcome to P-T Daisy. Happy Elf Smilie I hope you enjoy yourself and help contribute to our enjoyment.

The Council tries to keep discussions from turning into arguments, for we find being respectful of one another's views is more condusive to happiness, even when I'm told that I'm the one that has gotten out of line. Elf With a Big Grin Smilie
Welcome to PT Daisy. We are very happy that you have joined us and any ideas or viewpoints on Tolkien's works are encouraged. We love a discussion and sharing ideas.
Thanks. I knew you'd be kind! Not so sure about ideas... Will do my best. Winking Smilie
A warm welcome to you Daisy. Big Smile Smilie
Welcome to the site, Daisy. I'm pleased you plucked up the courage to join us. Like Grondy mentioned, we do our best to keep arguments and disagreements to a minimum here. Differences of opinion over interpretations of what Tolkien wrote are great, but we try to keep such differences from becoming personal.

As we are getting quite a few new members joining us at the moment I think it is perhaps worth reiterating what the older members already know very well. In order to keep from accidently (or deliberately) upsetting any other members sharing this site, we made a point of banning three topics from this site which were becoming "hotspots". These are discussions about Politics and religion, which prior to the ban did on several occasions cause upsets, and also because our site contains so many minors, Sex is also banned here. Obviously, if the discussion is directly Tolkien related, the first two subjects are permitted (but very closely monitored), but otherwise they are removed as soon as they are found (along with the guilty party if they continue to ignore our policy).

The reason this site is so much friendlier than some of the other sites out there is because our members respect this policy, and help us to keep Planet Tolkien family friendly. I hope all you new members joining us have a great time here, knowing you won't have others jumping down your throats every time you post something.
Howdy Daisy! Welcome to PT! Happy Elf Smilie
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Val said:
Life for an Elf is a long time, however, as they are immortal within the life of Ea. Even if they die, their time in the halls of Mandos is usually not forever, and after time they are free to resume their former lives.


Those elves who marry men, such as Arwen, take on 'the Doom of Men' - does that mean they follow the path of men when they die or is it just that they become mortal but still go to Mandos when they die?

I think they take on the doom (or gift) of men fully and go on to whatever is next for men. They don't end up in the Hall of Mandos. That's why Elrond and Arwen had such a bitter parting - they knew they would never see each other again. There's something in the back of my mind about Luthien never being seen again by elves which would suggest that this is the case. I seem to recall there being quite a lot in The Silmarillion about elves not understanding what happens to men and when individuals learn more they envy them because they (the elves) are bound to the fate of Arda whereas men are not. I hope that makes sense and isn't too vague.
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Daisy said:
I think they take on the doom (or gift) of men fully and go on to whatever is next for men. .... .......

I seem to recall there being quite a lot in The Silmarillion about elves not understanding what happens to men and when individuals learn more they envy them because they (the elves) are bound to the fate of Arda whereas men are not. I hope that makes sense and isn't too vague.


Thanks Daisy. That makes me feel a lot better about the fate of Arwen and Aragorn - they can at least hope to meet again. The different fate of elves and men is a sad one when they have both shared Middle Earth. I did wonder why Elros would choose the fate of men rather than elves when to us mere mortals immortality is bliss. Is there anything about what the fate of men is? I recollect something about the final chorus but am a bit vague - memory of a goldfish!
I can only remember any useful information about it in The Silmarillion but as that concerns elves it's from their point of view. They don't know what happens and the Valar don't know what happens because Illuvatar didn't fill them in on that part. It's only talked about in general terms in LOTR and only in relation to Arwen. There is a bit in the appendices, I think, in the story of Arwen and Aragorn that talks about Elrond's reluctance to let Arwen give up her immortality.
Elros decided to become mortal because of his Edain blood but I can't find any reason for why he chose this over his elven blood. It seems that not all half-elvens can choose which path they take.

"The Valar indeed may not withdraw the gift of death, which comes to Men from Illuvatar, but in the matter of the Half-elven Illuvatar gave to them the judgement; and they judged that to the sons of Earendil should be given choice of their own destiny."

So for the Princes of Dol-Amroth who had elvish blood they either weren't elvish enough to be immortal or the Valar chose for them the fate of men.

Hope that helps Read Smilie
Hey guys (and girls!!!)
Welcome Daisy (Another newbe yeah!!! Big Smile Smilie )

Thanks Grond and Val for the info. My questions are almost answered by the whole Finwe, Miriel, Indis triangle.

Rednell: You mentioned alot of books! And they all sound great (more food to feed my overactive obsession Super Wow Smilie )
Yeah, I was just thinking about buying Letters from JRR Tolkien online Smile Smilie

Daisy you wrote:
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"The Valar indeed may not withdraw the gift of death, which comes to Men from Illuvatar, but in the matter of the Half-elven Illuvatar gave to them the judgement; and they judged that to the sons of Earendil should be given choice of their own destiny."


This choice was also given to Arwen and her elder twin brothers Elladan and Elrohir (the Sons of Elrond), and all three of them chose to remain on Middle Earth. It is my understanding that the sons of Elrond decided to stay to avenge their mother (Celebrain who was attacked by Orks and later rescued by her sons, but she never recovered from the trauma, so she sailed West), did they became mortal as well? I would assume they did.

As far as the Doom of Men, I read somewhere, that there was a time when it was not seen as a bad thing, and was known as the Gift of Men. It was only after Melkor poisoned the concept of death with fear and uncertainty that it was called the Doom of Men.

Isn't it also true that the Elves do not know their fate after the breaking of the world? (Another mystery on the part of Eru).
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Those elves who marry men, such as Arwen, take on 'the Doom of Men' - does that mean they follow the path of men when they die or is it just that they become mortal but still go to Mandos when they die?


What you must remember here is that Arwen is not an Elf (not fully anyway). Iluvatar gave a Gift to Man that even the Valar could not take away. Arwen has Human blood in her, and so still has the right to claim the Gift of Man, even though her father has rejected it. Once the Gift of Man has been accepted (eg. in the case of Elros), that seems to be final though. Future offspring appear to have no choice - they are Men.

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I think they take on the doom (or gift) of men fully and go on to whatever is next for men. They don't end up in the Hall of Mandos.


Actually, Men go the Halls of Mandos too, where they await The End. The place of waiting within those Halls, however, is different to where the Elves go.

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I did wonder why Elros would choose the fate of men rather than elves when to us mere mortals immortality is bliss. Is there anything about what the fate of men is? I recollect something about the final chorus but am a bit vague


Many of the later Numenorians who came to see the uncertainty of the Gift as being a Doom must have wondered this too. This, however, is after Sauron had corrupted it in their minds with his lies. It is said that after the Final Battle, when The End occurs, Ea will be healed of all its ills and reach its final fruition as it had been intended in the Beginning. Not a great deal has been written specifically about what happens next, otherwise it wouldn't be a mystery. What has been said, however, is that Man will then join Iluvatar and the Ainur in singing the Second Great Music, and that this Second Music shall be greater than the First. To me, that seems to represent what we perceive as being Heaven.

Nothing is told what becomes of Ea after the End, or the Elves that are tied to its fate. Personally, as the Second Great Music has begun and the First has ended, I believe also that that is the end of Ea too. To me its final fruition is like a flower that comes to bloom before dying. It has achieved its end. In this way, although Elves are immortal within the life of Ea, it is Man who eventually gains true immortality.

I think too, part of the Gift was that Man was not tied to Ea so strongly as the Elves either. The fate of Elves seemed very tied to their destiny, whereas Man seems to have had a more of a free reign on deciding his own fate.

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So for the Princes of Dol-Amroth who had elvish blood they either weren't elvish enough to be immortal or the Valar chose for them the fate of men.


Galador, the first Lord of Dol Amroth, was the son of Imrazor of Belfalas (a Numenorian mariner) and Mithrellas. Mithrellas was a Silvan Elf from Lothlorien, who was handmaiden to Nimrodel when she travelled to Edhellond with Amroth. It is said that after bearing him two children, Mithrellas wished for the West and travelled over sea leaving her husband alone. I am unsure in this case whether these two children were ever given the choice of accepting the Gift or not, but it does seem clear that Galador at least was considered a Man. Once that decision had been made, any future generations would automatically have the Gift of Man bestowed upon them even though they had ever thinning Elven blood in their veins.

I think too, while discussing this subject, we should also look closely at the fate of Arwen. Iluvatar included his own themes into the Third part of the First Great Music. These were to counter the plots of Melkor and his followers, and I believe included many of those chance (and not so chance encounters and decisions that appear so regularly in his books). Beren was fated to meet and marry Luthien. Melian had forseen that a Man guided by a greater power than her own would breach her Girdle. This was the direct interference of Eru. He needed a strong line of Kings that would unite the free people of Middle Earth. Through Beren, Luthien and Earendil he was able to do this. If you look at the lineage of Elrond, you will see he is descended from the House of Fingolfin (via Idril), all three of the Houses of the Edain (via Tuor and Beren) and also from the Sindarin king, Thingol (via Luthien). What is more important, and quite unique when compared with other mixed marriages, is that Maian blood from Melian also went into this marriage. I cannot actually think of any other Maiar apart from Melian who has had children either.

It is no fluke that Elrond and Elros were brothers either, and that one chose the Gift of Man while the other didn't. This was the intention of Iluvatar. Through this strong blood mix, vitalized with Maian blood, we got the Line of Numenorian Kings. They were noble, strong, wise and long lived... until Sauron corrupted them. Then, just when Man needs another line of strong kings to lead them into the Fourth Age, the Age of Men, we have Aragorn marrying Arwen. This was not chance, and there was nothing Elrond could do to prevent it. It had been ordained by the highest possible power. Elrond's purpose in a way was to maintain the strong Maian bloodtie in his family until the time when it was most needed, and then to restrengthen the Line of Men via his daughter Arwen.

Yes, Arwen was special. Her fate had been decided by Iluvatar before Ea even came into existance.


Wow, this has got to be the most interesting, "I'm a Newbie" thread on these boards. I think at some stage we may have to move these topics into a thread where they would feel more at home.


So are you three Newbie's feeling at home yet?

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Many of the later Numenorians who came to see the uncertainty of the Gift as being a Doom must have wondered this too. This, however, is after Sauron had corrupted it in their minds with his lies.

This is not true : centuries before Ar-Pharazon captured Sauron, the numenorans already wanted to be immortal and kings clinged to life as long as possible, etc. this is why Sauron could reach them with all his lies. They already became corrupt and un-wise, arrogant freaks disrespecting the Valar and Eldar before they had ever heard of Sauron.

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Melian had forseen that a Man guided by a greater power than her own would breach her Girdle.

It is sure that Beren was predestined to meet Luthien because he was able to get into Doriath, but Melian didn't foresee this i think. She only understood when Luthien took Beren to Menegroth that it was predestiny.

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He needed a strong line of Kings that would unite the free people of Middle Earth. Through Beren, Luthien and Earendil he was able to do this. If you look at the lineage of Elrond, you will see he is descended from the House of Fingolfin (via Idril), all three of the Houses of the Edain (via Tuor and Beren) and also from the Sindarin king, Thingol (via Luthien). What is more important, and quite unique when compared with other mixed marriages, is that Maian blood from Melian also went into this marriage. I cannot actually think of any other Maiar apart from Melian who has had children either.

I don't think everything was predestined : i agree that Luthien and Beren were predestiny and this was necessary to produce Eärendil who was predestined to topple Morgoth via the Valar. I think Eru only made his adjustments in the Great Music of the Ainur, corrupted by Morgoth, so that Morgoth would be defeated and so his evil force would be gone.

I think after the disappearance of the bringer of evil, Eru didn't want to interfere in Ea anymore and left the peoples of Ea to find their own cause. They had to see for themselves what they were going to do with the evil. Some succumbed and became Dark Men, others didn't. I don't think for instance the sinking of Numenor was predestined : i think that was merely a test for High Men which they failed. Failing the test meant they all had to disappear, including their land. Only a couple of High Men which remained faithful were still given a chance.

In my opinion, if Eru really wanted to get rid Ea of all evil, he would have made Sauron repent from his sins at the end of the first age too, and make him go back to Valinor and ask for forgiveness. If Eru wanted he could have just rewritten the entire Music of the Ainur, which Melkor messed up. But he didn't : he only removed his unpatient pupil from the scene.

Still, i believe it was indeed predestiny for Aragorn to marry Arwen, so that the line of half-elves Eru opened to get rid of Morgoth would be closed after all work had been done. So, unlucky for Elrond, Eru couldn't give him a break. Maybe it was a small punishment for chosing the race of Elves instead of Men too. After all, Eru had something neat in mind with Men.

So, the easiest conclusion would be everything would be predestined, but i don't believe this. Eru kept options open for his children on Ea : they were free, they could choose whatever path they wanted (at least, the Edain could), so some Men joined Mordor later run while others fought Mordor. He didn't create Arda to watch a story he thought of be played by puppets. I don't really see Eru as a supernatural director.

Like, it was predestined that Eärendil would be born, but not predestined that Eärendil would succeed in his mission : Eärendil could have stayed at home with his wife too and be butchered by the sons of Fëanor. Same with Beren and Luthien : it was predestined they would meet, but not predestined what they would do with their time. This applies for everything.




Yes, I conceed those two points, Vir. It was Melkor's lies that had initially turned Men's perception of the Gift into that of a Curse, not Sauron's. With the other one regarding Melian, I had incorrectly remembered the following line from the Silmarillion...

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The Girdle of Melian, that none thereafter could pass against her will or the will of King Thingol, unless one should come with a power greater than that of Melian the Maiar.


Hopefully, the gist of what I was saying remains valid, though.
Eh, during your reply i was busy with the other topics you covered too.... maybe i should split it up.
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So, the easiest conclusion would be everything would be predestined, but i don't believe this. Eru kept options open for his children on Ea : they were free, they could choose whatever path they wanted (at least, the Edain could), so some Men joined Mordor later run while others fought Mordor. He didn't create Arda to watch a story he thought of be played by puppets. I don't really see Eru as a supernatural director.

Like, it was predestined that Eärendil would be born, but not predestined that Eärendil would succeed in his mission : Eärendil could have stayed at home with his wife too and be butchered by the sons of Fëanor. Same with Beren and Luthien : it was predestined they would meet, but not predestined what they would do with their time. This applies for everything.


I'd agree with that Vir. I wasn't trying so much to give the impression that Eru had totally scripted certain roles and was playing them out word for word, as he was creating the opportunities for things to happen in a certain way. What we see is the success stories, too. How many plans did he implement that went astray because his intended hero did stay at home with the wife and kids?

I still feel that Eru was adding his own moves after Melkor had been removed, however. Gandalf's comment to Frodo about it being reassuring that something had helped Bilbo find the Ring seems to point at one such instance.

Val said:

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So are you three Newbie's feeling at home yet?


Fairly at home thanks. I never expect groups or chatrooms to be instantly 'dear friends'; not the human way but I shall persevere with my presence until I am worshipped like the goddess I am....

I covet Virumor's avatar - I used to have something like it on notepaper. There are a lot of Vs around here. Always a good thing.



Someone put the kettle on.

I'm feeling overawed by greater wisdom. Dunce Smilie

Thanks to all the Vs who have helped clear up some of my misconceptions. Unfortunately, I'm a bit more confused about other stuff. I'll reread what you've posted v e r y s l o w l y and hope it sinks in.

Oh, if someone's putting the kettle on I'd love a cup of tea. Thanks Smile Smilie



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So are you three Newbie's feeling at home yet?


Yeah, I'm feeling @ home!! I'm thrilled this Newbie post went this far. I'm already learning so much, a little too much, after I get done writing this I'll have to finish reading the rest of the commits!
Like Daisy, I too am feeling awed--you guys really know your stuff. Cool Smilie
You have my vote to move this post wherever you want, I think it paid its dues as a newbie Big Smile Smilie
Val said:
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Still, i believe it was indeed predestiny for Aragorn to marry Arwen


It seems that 'love at first sight' is predestination.
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It seems that 'love at first sight' is predestination.

I think that it was Aragorn that fell in love with Arwen "at first sight" and not the other way around, nor was it a mutual thing. Aragorn then loved her unrequitedly for some time while he was "out in the wild." Then years later Aragorn came to Lothlórien, and unknowingly to him Arwen was there as well. It was on the hill of Caras Galadon that Arwen fell in love with him. Wink Smilie But then that moment could have been a "love at first sight" moment for her, because it was the first time she had seen him since he left Rivendell.
Hey, i'm new too. I was so excited when I found this site!!!! Big Smile Smilie
I am a huge, huge fan of J. R. R. Tolkien and his writings!
well, see you around.

mithrandir
Ooooooh can I welcome him can I can I? My first welcome and I've only been here a week myself.

Welcome Mithrandir.

Didn't I see that name in the chatroom? Same one?
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I think that it was Aragorn that fell in love with Arwen "at first sight" and not the other way around, nor was it a mutual thing. Aragorn then loved her unrequitedly for some time while he was "out in the wild." Then years later Aragorn came to Lothlórien, and unknowingly to him Arwen was there as well. It was on the hill of Caras Galadon that Arwen fell in love with him. But then that moment could have been a "love at first sight" moment for her, because it was the first time she had seen him since he left Rivendell.

Dunno if Arwen fell in love with him, after all, she is a freaky half-elven maiden. Look at Galadriel : even weirder. It is just stated she 'chose' him because to her he looked like an Elven lord from the West. Doesn't sound very romantic.
Welcome to Planet-Tolkien Mithrandir. Happy Elf Smilie Enjoy your self and share with us too.
Welcome to Planet Tolkien, Mithrandir. I hope you have a great time around here. If you have any questions on how to do things, be sure to ask.
Welcome Mithrandir! Don't think I welcomed Vee either. Hello there Vee!
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Look at Galadriel : even weirder. It is just stated she 'chose' him because to her he looked like an Elven lord from the West. Doesn't sound very romantic.
Hehe, we just have to guess how they felt. An Elven lord form the West is wise, pure and strong, an elf at his best. He had never seen Valinor but still she saw all that in him. An equal. Besides, I'm sure he had a nice, firm elven butt! Ha Ha Ha Smilie

About Arwen and Aragorn. He was 18 years old and she was 2000 +++ years old when they met. Of course he fell for her, she was the most beautiful elf since Luthien. (And it was Erus plan) To her he must have seemed like a baby. So he worked hard and become a fine man, and she saw that. There is nothing like a beautìful woman to make a man try his hardest, is there? Wink Smilie
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Hehe, we just have to guess how they felt. An Elven lord form the West is wise, pure and strong, an elf at his best. He had never seen Valinor but still she saw all that in him. An equal. Besides, I'm sure he had a nice, firm elven butt!

We are talking bout Aragorn, not about Legolamb, dear :P
Although Legolamb was an Elven sissy from the East.
Hey Mithrandir, welcome!!! Big Smile Smilie

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We are talking bout Aragorn, not about Legolamb, dear :P
Although Legolamb was an Elven sissy from the East.

Now, now Virumor, Are you having Legolas-envy? Smile Smilie Smile Smilie Smile Smilie

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He was 18 years old and she was 2000 +++ years old when they met.

I thought Aragorn was 20 when he first met Arwen, but 18, 20 not much difference. Smile Smilie Smile Smilie Smile Smilie
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We are talking bout Aragorn, not about Legolamb, dear :P
Well honey brunch, I was replying to your comment on Galadriel and Celeborn, which I even quoted, so we also talk about Galadriel and Celeborn cause you brought it up. But I am sure Aragorns butt is quite nice too, all that walking in the mountains is good excercise! And nobody was talking about Legolamb untill you did! You are obsessed with that guy, you know that? Wink Smilie Ha Ha Ha Smilie

Actually, we are not suppose to talk about any of them because this is a thread where we are suppose to say things like this: Welcome Out_Of_Sheo, I've seen you around but I don't think I have said hello yet, so hello!
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