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Ellen Sila Lumein Omentillmo
A star shines at the hour of our meeting.
I'm starting this thread for those of us out there who are long time fans of the words of JRR Tolkien.
Welcome all
Hi Norlin, and welcome to PT! Waving Hello Smilie

Sadly, truth be told, at this particular site the overwhelming majority of our membership seems to be under the age of 18. However there are a few of us ďolderĒ types around with our beloved Grondmaster being the ďancient marinerĒ around here so to speak (just kidding Grondy)!
Tongue Smilie

I myself have recently turned 33, so Iím gaining on you! Anyway just wanted to welcome you to the forums, weíre glad to have you here, and I think you will find that this is by far the friendliest Tolkien site on the net!
Happy Elf Smilie
Hi Norlin. Welcome to Planet Tolkien.

I stopped having birthdays a few years ago when I reached 38 and caught up with my mother. I'll leave this thread for those who really are over forty, therefore. Try Vee... she'll never tell me her age so she must be getting on a bit Very Big Grin Smilie
Yup, I'm a greybeard and have one to prove it. Welcome to out forum Norlin. Happy Elf Smilie
Welcome to PT Norlin Waving Hello Smilie
Well, this is one club that I can join. Although, that is as much information on this subject as I will divulge.
There are a few of us around, actually. We just hide it well. :P
I'm only 23, but I just wanted to say that is about time the grownups of this site get a place of their own and let us know you exist! The teenagers are chatting away like teenagers do, a lot and out loud. About time people who come to this site clearly get to see that people of all ages come here. Grown-ups of the Planet Tolkien unite! Orc With Thumbs Up Smilie
Grown-ups? Who are you calling a grown-up?

Anyway, I am late, late, late 30s. I don't intend growing-up. Straight on till morning........
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I'm only 23, but I just wanted to say that is about time the grownups of this site get a place of their own and let us know you exist! The teenagers are chatting away like teenagers do, a lot and out loud. About time people who come to this site clearly get to see that people of all ages come here. Grown-ups of the Planet Tolkien unite!


I Yes, thank you for putting that so nicely, Amarie, now I only have to say "I agree with that". Animated Wink Smilie

Welcome, welcome, Norlin!

Since I have only recently turned 20, I will quickly leave this thread to you "grownups". Elk Grinning Smilie
And I will say hello to Norlin...Hey Norlin! Welcome to Planet Tolkien...and take my leave rather quickly.
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Try Vee... she'll never tell me her age so she must be getting on a bit


You are heading for the slapping of your life........

Wiggle Smilie
Like I said,

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Anyway, I am late, late, late 30s.


just like me, Vee.... Animated Wink Smilie

Gotta be a Good Thing.
*pokes head in for a quick greeting* Hi Norlin!! Welcome!! *gets swatted by a couple of the grownups and quickly follows on Stoney and Tommie's heels*
Thst's right, Nil, no need for you to be in there with the ancient ones. Age rubs off you know!

Anyone else want to donate mithril to the cartload of walking canes I am shipping to this thread? Cool Smilie
hehehe sure Stoney Smile Smilie... welcome to PT, Norlin. Very interesting forum you started. Maybe I should start a Fans under 40 forum? Wink Smilie
It would seem all the over forties are a rather quiet bunch, not the sort to stand around the forum idly chatting.

So all us over 40's..... Did life actually begin at 40 for you?

I suppose 40 was traditionally the age by which your kids were old enough to take care of themselves, giving you back that freedom you had not had since your twenties. That coupled with the thought you were half way to being dead, kind of shook you into reawakening your life. Personally, I found mine seemed to go through a reformation early at 36, with a new home, job and wench. Looking back, I cannot believe how much I have changed in those four years, but it definitely
feels like a new life.
I'll let you know when I get there. (chuckle)

Wiggle Smilie
Thank for all the kind welcomes. And to you under forties, you are most welcome here, it is just a board where we elders, can blow smoke rings.

I am glad to see this thread already in its second page. When I statred it I was told that there were few of us here, but alas we are everywhere. I apologise for being gone so long, the end of the school year is a trying time. Hoping to get all in place for the next year while finishing off this one.

Again thak you for all the welcome, I look forward to our correspondence.
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the end of the school year is a trying time.


Bit old to still be at school aren't you, Norlin? Ha Ha Ha Smilie Did they keep you back a year or so?
We are all at school in the University of Life.

Wiggle Smilie
I'm not quite 27, but having 2 stepkids of 10 and 12 respectively, I feel over 40 most of the time. And god darn I need grown up conversation.

Moderator Smilie Elfy was here merely to edit one word that needed to be changed. Moderator Smilie
I'm 21 but suffer from miserable old b*****d syndrome so I should fit in.
Don't look for it here!

The grown up conversation, that is.
Heck, Plastic, I have to watch my siblings from time to time, they are 2, 5, 7, 10, and 13. Now that is a chore! Pixie Smilie The best thing I have found is to just let them watch tv for hours on end. It's the only way I survive.

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Heck, Plastic, I have to watch my siblings from time to time, they are 2, 5, 7, 10, and 13. Now that is a chore! The best thing I have found is to just let them watch tv for hours on end. It's the only way I survive.

Meh, I know how you feel.. I have to watch, feed and take care of a 2 year old, 4 year old, 6 year old, and 8 year old daily.. and a very immature 18 year old. My mom isent around much.
Just put them in a cupboard with a box of matches. They'll get along like a house on fire.
Feed and take care of an 18 year old there, Fea? Shouldn't he/she be off doing something worthwhile. Like mowning lawns or studying??

You are probably the only other one here with hundreds and hundreds (yes I am stretching it a bit) of siblings.

Matches, eh....hmmmmmm................
OMG! It's the Brady Bunch!
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Just put them in a cupboard with a box of matches. They'll get along like a house on fire.
WARNING: DON'T DO THIS AT HOME. It can have unintended consequences; like no, place to sleep at night, no one to fight with, and several grownups angry at you.
I say find a real good excuse to send them to their rooms all night, and have a lovely quiet night in. Smile Smilie Works for me. Or get them so drunk they pass out, oh yeah, add Grondy's above words to that last comment as well.
Fancy seeing you back in here, Stoney. Didn't I hear something about age wearing off on you from your corner? Wink Smilie

You and Fea aren't the only ones with many siblings. I only have one, a younger sister whom I sometimes end up smothering with love, but Erbie (Lady Erbalwen for anyone not familiar with all the nicknames) has five younger sisters (6, 8, 10, 13, and 15, I believe) and a two-year-old brother. So she'll be able to commiserate with you both. I almost can since I'm in the habit of spending long periods of time with her. Very Mad Smilie Big Smile Smilie
Hello to fellow Tolkien fans over 40. I'm 41 yet still feel 23 on the inside, and sometimes 80 on the outside depending on the day! Glad to know that some of my fellow PT members can relate to this stage in life. Looking forward to reading more of your postings!
So why do we have a predominantly 'young' membership? What sort of things would attract the older member? I hesitate to use the word 'mature'....
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What sort of things would attract the older member?


Having back some of that time we used to fritter away as teenagers, when the rest of our lives seemed a long way before us, rather than mostly behind us.
Sorry, Val, you should be in the Dr Who queue over there >>>>>>>>

Ask if you can borrow the TARDIS.

Seriously, what do older members want from a site like this?
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So why do we have a predominantly 'young' membership??

The movies. Elijah Woods and Orlando Bloom made a lot of young folks type "Lord of the Rings" into search engines. They come, they meet, they have fun and they stay.

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Seriously, what do older members want from a site like this?

Serious (and not quite as serious) conversation with people who actually know a bit about Tolkien and his works, meeting people who shares the same interests and talk to people from all over the world, whom you would never have met otherwise. That is why I came and why I stay. I really wish for more Tolkien related discussions, not just games.
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I really wish for more Tolkien related discussions, not just games.

You could always move to www.virumor.com for that, you know!! Heh.

Seriously, i agree with you. I don't even call 'who's next', 'person below', 'kick Russians', etc games but just mindless time wasting. *shrugs* to each its own, i guess. I just prefer Tolkien, that's all.
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That is why I came and why I stay. I really wish for more Tolkien related discussions, not just games.

Same here. I'm getting very tired of those "Who's Next" ect games. I know I don't participate much on the Lord of the Ring related subjects, for which I am sorry, but I never seem to have enough quiet time (to read and research on the books, too) where I can make a meaningful post and that's one reason why I haven't been visiting much lately and probaly won't be at all in the future.
I'm sure many of the young members didn't only get interested because of their crushes on Orlando Bloom and the other male characters.. I came with an interest to learn more about Lord of the Rings and hadn't even watched the movies when I became an active member. Smile Smilie
I'm hoping that the Council Members will delete some of the more mindless games that have had a long enough run.
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Serious (and not quite as serious) conversation with people who actually know a bit about Tolkien and his works, meeting people who shares the same interests and talk to people from all over the world, whom you would never have met otherwise.

I'm very thankful to have met some wonderful people here and I hope to make more friends.
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I'm hoping that the Council Members will delete some of the more mindless games that have had a long enough run.


I'm just waiting for the post counter to start counting backwards when a post is deleted once more, and then I might accidently erase a good few of them. Dead Smilie
Not that I would miss them so much, but... why this deleting urge?

Are they doing any harm?

Will people suddenly start posting interesting stuff once the games has gone?

It seems a lot of people think that if you remove the foolish things from this site, it will become a good and interesting site. I'm not so optimistic- I think it's quite likely we'll end up with a dead site.

If we want serious and deep discussions on interesting topics we need to allow people to become emotional. Why? Because what interests us is important to us! We need to allow opinions. And clashes of opinions. Then the participants in the discussions need to be mature enough to differenciate between criticism of opinions/sources/interpretations and personal attacs, which sadly seem to be a point of confusion for some. When someone is unable to keep the discussion in a timely manner they should be removed from the discussion, not the discussion removed from the forum.

Now we close down the topics where the discussions has become heated. Why did it become heated? Because it was important to people! They took a deep interest in the topic. Deep personal interest WILL create friction between different views. This lead to interesting and fruitful discussions that can lead to much greater understanding and depth to a subject. If the discussion is kept in a mature and civilized manner! Friction between views is good, friction between people is bad.

If we want interesting discussions we need to stop banning all topics that create interest, and instead allow the discussions, but be firm on how the discussions are held. When someone instead of attacking the other parts arguments start attacking his/hers person, or otherwise ruins the constructive mood of the discussion, the culprit should in no uncertain terms be told to cool down or get lost. Now we are basically telling everybody to get lost...
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Will people suddenly start posting interesting stuff once the games has gone?
Who has said anything about deleting all the games? There are many dead games no one remembers, we have some who's next clones (we hatessss them) and many games started only to boost post ratings. No one would know they are gone. What we in the Council would like to do and what we would do is two very very different things. Even a council member is allowed to speak his or her mind. It doesn't mean it is the what what he/she says is what the council would say.

We want more interesting posts, in addition to the games. This is suppose to be a Tolkien forum with games and taverns, not games and taverns with some Tolkien stuff. If you want people to buy icecream you have to show that you have icecream, not just chocolate and lollipops (which is also good). We have to show that we have discussions to get people to discuss, both new and old members. When the list of new posts so often showed practically nothing but game posts, it is natural for us who want discussions to be frustrated and a bit annoyed at the games. Doesn't mean we want them all gone.

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If we want interesting discussions we need to stop banning all topics that create interest (...)
I am guessing you mean "If You Could Change One Thing ", the only discussion we have closed in a long while as far as my quite drowsy head can recall? It will be opened again, I am not sure if Rednell has had time to do what she was going to do. And the changes in the movie are discussed all over the place, that particular thread was closed temporary, but the discussion is not.

The only banned subjects are the ones mentioned in the rules; politics, religion etc. That is with good reason, and is not up for debate.

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When someone instead of attacking the other parts arguments start attacking his/hers person, or otherwise ruins the constructive mood of the discussion, the culprit should in no uncertain terms be told to cool down or get lost.
We do, we give warnings but we have to be diplomatic as well. Everybody can loose their temper and say/post things in the heat of the moment that he/she shouldn't have, we are only humans after all. We edit or delete and give warnings, often in PM or e-mail. What do you think gives the best result: talking to the person in private or in a public area where everybody can see? Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

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Now we are basically telling everybody to get lost...
No, we are not. We don't want anybody to get lost, we want a community of all ages and nationalities where you can feel welcome and at home. Where you can speak and not be laughed at, yelled at or ridiculed. But we are only human after all, nobody is perfect and neither is the Council. We do our best.
But speaking of lost, where is Nemo?
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But speaking of lost, where is Nemo?


Ooooooh Hunting Nemo.....


OK - Discussions:

Someone has to start them. So instead of wishing there were more Tolkien discussion, start them. I've tried starting a few but if no one joins in they disappear without trace. I posted what I thought was a great idea in the Website Suggestion thread about sound bytes..... only two people responded. Where is the discussion? However, just saying it is a stupid idea is no way to encourage participation.

It is difficult to maintain a high level of interest in many of the popular Tolkien topics because they may already have been done to death which doesn't help those people who have joined since. Perhaps the old discussion threads could be archived. It's like having a FAQ, if everything is already answered then why bother with it again. Because we need new perspectives, new ideas, new opinions, new points of view......

Games

Yes, there are lots of game threads all over the place. And yes, some could be deleted. I get bored with the same old same old.... but they do have a place. They get people involved, some are fun, some interesting..... some could be fun and interesting but are instead just a platform for statements. Take the 'What are you listening to' and 'What are you reading' threads. I'd like to see more cohesion betwen posts... instead of just stating what one is listening to or reading, post something about it that will catch interest. And acknowledge what someone said previously, comment on their choice, something, anything......


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Who has said anything about deleting all the games?
Well I'm as stumped as you here - certainly not me! Big Smile Smilie But seriously, your two argumets in favour of deleting the games are incompatible. You say you only want to delete dead games, then "complain" about only games in the list of new posts. Surely deleting old games won't help that? I agree with your theme park analogy btw. Thumbs Up Smilie
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What we in the Council would like to do and what we would do is two very very different things. Even a council member is allowed to speak his or her mind. It doesn't mean it is the what what he/she says is what the council would say.
Yes, OK, but Val's post answered a wish directed to the Council and conveying clear intentions. Btw Val, Taz says the backward ticking of the post count work now, so happy "accidenting"! Big Smile Smilie

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The only banned subjects are the ones mentioned in the rules; politics, religion etc. That is with good reason, and is not up for debate.
I agree with that, and am not advocating a change in that policy.

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I am guessing you mean "If You Could Change One Thing ", the only discussion we have closed in a long while as far as my quite drowsy head can recall? It will be opened again, I am not sure if Rednell has had time to do what she was going to do. And the changes in the movie are discussed all over the place, that particular thread was closed temporary, but the discussion is not.
"If you could..." was off course on top of my head, which is at least as drowsy as yours, althoug on a permanet basis! Wink Smilie But not only. In some football threads there has even been pre-emptive strikes! Locking has only been possible for a short while. Many discussions has been ended with a moderators post, substituting the closing.


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I posted what I thought was a great idea in the Website Suggestion thread about sound bytes..... only two people responded. Where is the discussion? However, just saying it is a stupid idea is no way to encourage participation.
I talked to a CM about your idea. "We already thought of something similar - it won't happen" was pretty much the answer I got. Although in a much nicer way. Smile Smilie I think they should have at least replyed to you...

Now regarding the latter part of Ama's quote and Vee's quote I'm going to tell you a story. It is a true story, happening in Canada I believe. You will find it in books on personell management. I don't have any books like that, so I'll try to rely on memory:

In a factory in Canada:
The management called in all the workers to a meeting. They told them that beginning next month the light in the factory hall would be turned up.

They did what they said, and productivity went up.

6 months later they called the staff in for a new meeting, telling them that beginning next month they would turn down the light in the factory hall.

So they did, and production went up.

Some months later they repeated the first meeting, and months after that again the latter. Also in both these cases productivity went up.

Moral: It's not the light level in the factory hall that is of importance, but that the management feel that their workers are important to them and tell them their plans and strategies for the future. This produces a feeling of belonging and participation in the work force, and often spurs creativity and personal initiative - ordinary staff becomes a great source of new ideas for the business to capitalize on.

When someone comes up with an idea, posts it and eagerly awaits reactions but are basically ignored they get dissapointed and disillusioned. "What's the point? No one is interested anyway! Grr!" Yes, the CM's did notice the suggestion, they did discuss it (I think), but it all happened behind closed doors and nobody saw any point in telling the ordinary members what went on. A more transparent council strategy that lets us ordinarys in on the great plans of the future is sure to create excitement and enthusiasm. Excitement and enthusiasm is translated into initiative, which in this case results in posts.

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What do you think gives the best result: talking to the person in private or in a public area where everybody can see? Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
What happened to the "we don't have time to PM people that breaks the rules and hope that they might read it"? How was we to know that the procedure had changed/was not how it was said to be? May I suggest locking peoples account for a few hours, alternatively until they have read and replied to a PM from council? Instead of closing down the whole topic. If it can be made possible.

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No, we are not. We don't want anybody to get lost, we want a community of all ages and nationalities where you can feel welcome and at home. Where you can speak and not be laughed at, yelled at or ridiculed.
An expression: "If you try to be everybodys friend you are beeing nobodys friend." I don't agree with that, but there is some truth in it. If you want to make food that no one doesn't like, you'll probably end up with something very boring that no one get excited over. Same with a website. If PT wants to be "perfectly safe" and interesting at the same time I salute your ambitions! But it will be very, very hard to achieve!

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But speaking of lost, where is Nemo?
Nemo doesn't like taxes.


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I'd like to see more cohesion betwen posts... instead of just stating what one is listening to or reading, post something about it that will catch interest. And acknowledge what someone said previously, comment on their choice, something, anything......
Me too! I often wonder about the point in posting, as no one seem to read it.. In some of the games you have the same question posted twice on the same page! But strangely some seem to like it that way. As in the recently locked and soon-to-be-reopened-perhaps-if-someone-has-time-someday thread "if you could change..". It seemed at least some of the debaters wanted to just present their opinion/truth, and didnt like people commenting on it. Then I don't see the point. How can something interesting come out of that?
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I talked to a CM about your idea. "We already thought of something similar - it won't happen" was pretty much the answer I got. Although in a much nicer way. I think they should have at least replyed to you...


Well yes, that would have been nice - a reply in the thread would have been nice but I was also concerned that no other members contributed to the discussion. If enough people think it is a good idea and want it to happen then there could be ways and means.... maybe... or at least something else might come of it. But no discussion means no moving forward. It also means that no one is interested.

It wasn't the first idea I had posted which had no response, there are others, at least one, of which, was (IMO) laughed at and ridiculed instead of being discussed and again maybe something else might have come of it.

I see ideas as ideas - reality comes afterwards. They should be talked about, opinions and views exchanged and used as a sounding board for better things. To do otherwise merely discourages anyone from putting forward ideas.
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I see ideas as ideas - reality comes afterwards. They should be talked about, opinions and views exchanged and used as a sounding board for better things. To do otherwise merely discourages anyone from putting forward ideas.

Shocked Smilie YES!! Agree with you fully!! So did Popper and all other contemporary science philosophers! Big Smile Smilie
Legolaslass and I have discussed the possibility of a PT mud wrestling competition with photos... mud or jelly or both.... but there is a problem with the logistics of such an event. It might generate some interest though.
Depends who would participate in such an event, i guess...
I saw Vees Sound Byte thread but was in the middle of my exams. Since it for some reason takes me foreeeeeever to write a reply, I told myself I was allowed to see what was going on on PT in the breaks, but not reply. (I didn't obey myself all the time..) I also thought it would be better if someone with a little more knowledge of the server bandwidth thingie stuff replied. It is strange that no one replied.. It would be fun to hear the voices of other members. I could at least have said that. And it wasn't discussed as I know of, and I forgot to bring it up at the meeting. : /

PT jelly wrestling? Ha Ha Ha Smilie Need costumes. Arwen vs Eowyn. Gandalf vs the balrog. Not very family friendly though. Wink Smilie And we need those age-defined only-for-scertain-members thread/areas we can't have. But what you do on your free time is none of our business. Wink Smilie

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What happened to the "we don't have time to PM people that breaks the rules and hope that they might read it"? How was we to know that the procedure had changed/was not how it was said to be?
Nothing has changed. That was about PMing first so that the person who wrote the 'illeagal' word/post could come and fix it himself/herself. That we don't do, because that might take days and it might just be ignored, and then what? We edit and let the post say it has been edited and maybe a warning/note. Personal attacks, serious breaking of the rules etc might get a PM or e-mail from a CM as well, a personal conversation, a chance to explain.

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If PT wants to be "perfectly safe" and interesting at the same time I salute your ambitions!
Well it will never be perfectly safe, we would have to ban every member including ourselves. Wink Smilie Thank you for the salutation! *absorbs kind words like a dry sponge*

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Moral: It's not the light level in the factory hall that is of importance, but that the management feel that their workers are important to them and tell them their plans and strategies for the future. This produces a feeling of belonging and participation in the work force, and often spurs creativity and personal initiative
Very true. Of course people wonder what the Council is discussing, so did I. I'll make a note (a real one, the mental ones keeps failing me) and remember to bring it up.

yes the counter thing is fixed, just tested it (on myself). Smile Smilie
Wow, who'd have thought all these 40 year olds would get together and spark such a discussion.

Firstly, thank you Amarie for flying the Council flag so enthusiastically since you joined our ranks, particularly as you are in the middle of your exams.

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I posted what I thought was a great idea in the Website Suggestion thread about sound bytes..... only two people responded. Where is the discussion? However, just saying it is a stupid idea is no way to encourage participation.


I was away pretty much all of last week at sea, Vee. I did see your sound-byte post when I got home, but did not know whether it was something that was possible. I tend to leave technical things to Taz, as only he can answer them. You are right that saying something stupid is no way to encourage participation, and that is something I don't think anyone on the Council would ever say.

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It is difficult to maintain a high level of interest in many of the popular Tolkien topics because they may already have been done to death which doesn't help those people who have joined since.


I think that is part of the problem. Most of the older members have seen pretty much everything already discussed in duplicate, and no longer reply with answers to questions they have responded to in the past.

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Yes, OK, but Val's post answered a wish directed to the Council and conveying clear intentions. Btw Val, Taz says the backward ticking of the post count work now, so happy "accidenting"!


Like Amarie mentioned, Grev, even CM's have their opinions. Getting rid of some of the games was just wishful thinking, not something I'd actually put into effect. I don't mind the games, it's just the way some people use them to inflate their post count (and this does not just happen in the games). Personally I'd prefer to see the post count removed so that those people would no longer feel the need to post worthless posts. Actually things have improved a lot recently.

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It's not the light level in the factory hall that is of importance, but that the management feel that their workers are important to them and tell them their plans and strategies for the future. This produces a feeling of belonging and participation in the work force, and often spurs creativity and personal initiative - ordinary staff becomes a great source of new ideas for the business to capitalize on.

When someone comes up with an idea, posts it and eagerly awaits reactions but are basically ignored they get dissapointed and disillusioned. "What's the point? No one is interested anyway! Grr!" Yes, the CM's did notice the suggestion, they did discuss it (I think), but it all happened behind closed doors and nobody saw any point in telling the ordinary members what went on. A more transparent council strategy that lets us ordinarys in on the great plans of the future is sure to create excitement and enthusiasm. Excitement and enthusiasm is translated into initiative, which in this case results in posts.


I think Taz has already created a site in which individual members get to have a far larger imput than they would at most sites on the web. The very fact that he has a suggestions section proves that. A lot of discussion does go on behind the scenes too, in an attempt to make this site even better, but granted there is always room for improvement. It's an old excuse, but we are all busy people. When I am at home I spend on average around three hours a day on this site doing bits and pieces. I work at sea, though, and cannot be here everyday. Grondy spends even more time here, but unfortunately has been ill recently. Taz spends stacks of time just making the site function. we all commit a lot of spare time to making this site what it is. There is room for improvement, but we are doing our best.

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What happened to the "we don't have time to PM people that breaks the rules and hope that they might read it"? How was we to know that the procedure had changed/was not how it was said to be? May I suggest locking peoples account for a few hours, alternatively until they have read and replied to a PM from council? Instead of closing down the whole topic. If it can be made possible.


We don't really have a set policy on how we deal with problems of this nature. Each CM tends to respond in the best way they see fit at any time. Sometimes we edit, sometimes delete. If it's serious, or happens more frequently we tend to send them a PM or email. Rednell temporarily closed the "what would you change" thread to allow things to cool down a little. The intention is to reopen that particular thread at some stage.

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If PT wants to be "perfectly safe" and interesting at the same time I salute your ambitions! But it will be very, very hard to achieve!


It will, but it is worth striving for.


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Legolaslass and I have discussed the possibility of a PT mud wrestling competition with photos... mud or jelly or both.... but there is a problem with the logistics of such an event. It might generate some interest though.


You've piqued my interest, Vee. Big Smile Smilie I think I'd win the mud fight though. I spend most days thigh deep in mud.

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You've piqued my interest, Vee. I think I'd win the mud fight though. I spend most days thigh deep in mud.


Oooh is that a challenge?


It's not the winning, it is the taking part that counts.

Wiggle Smilie

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