Thread: For the Record!
On 7/9, in the ď4th of JulyĒ thread I made some comments in the heat of the moment that I deeply regret. I made a mistake in even saying anything at all, and I feel that my comments were insensitive, and inappropriate. I would like to apologize for that, and Iím truly sorry if my comments have offended anyone.
However, I feel it only fair to point out that thread had already gone severely off-topic. There were at least 6 or 7 posts before mine that were political in nature, some of which containing very questionable comments about my country, and having nothing to do with the original topic, and intent of the thread.
Anyway, before I go any further I want to make it clear that no one has put me up to this, and no one has asked for, or demanded my apology, Iím just doing this because I know in my heart that this is the right thing to do. So again, Iím truly sorry for the comments that I made in that thread.
Now there is one other thing here that I would like to address. Yesterday I received a very rude, offensive, and erroneous private message from a certain member who shall remain nameless here falsely accusing me of being the one responsible for having the ďElves and gastric eruptionsĒ thread deleted. Then today, I see another member here has chosen to publicly call me out in their journal, and falsely accuse me of the same thing.
So for the record, once and for all, officially, I had absolutely nothing to do with that thread being shut down! First of all, to the member that accused me of having the thread deleted, the thread hasnít been deleted it has been locked. This thread was not locked by me, nor at my request, and the move was made by another Council member here without my prior knowledge or consultation.
At no time did I ever go behind anyoneís back and advocate for that thread being locked, or deleted, and at no place in my post, or anywhere else for that matter did I ever say that people shouldnít be allowed to talk about a certain subject. All I did was merely voice my personal opinion on the subject of that thread. Apparently though, according to some other members here I shouldnít be allowed to voice my opinion?
Regardless again, I had nothing to do with the thread being locked, and the end result was definitely not the intent of my post. I find it pretty comical, and flattering really that a few certain individuals seem to think I wield so much power here, and I hate to break the illusion to them, but the only person who ultimately has any real power here is Tarrant because itís his website!
Anyone can feel free to respond to this post if they wish, but please note that at no time here has my tone been offensive or personal, and any further posts in this thread containing offensive, rude, or personal attacks will be deleted. There has been way too much of that sort of thing around here lately with myself accepting a large share of the blame.
Look we all make mistakes, and every single one of us says things sometimes in the heat of the moment that we end up regretting later on. I made a mistake, but one thing about me though is that when I do make a mistake, Iím man enough to admit it, and Iíll always be the first one to step up and admit it!
I just felt that I should be given a fair opportunity to apologize for the comments I made in the ď4thĒ thread, and to clear the air officially on something I have been falsely, and wrongly accused of.
Yesterday, V and I did set one of the accusers straight on your innocence on the locked thread. I am indeed sorry that you took the heat for something that was not of your doing.
Sometimes threads are locked to give council a chance to discuss matters and come to a concensus. When a thread is locked, it is not written in stone that it will stay that way.
If anyone has a concern when a thread is locked, send an email to email@example.com and we will answer you. But to publically rake any council member over the coals does not help your cause.
I, too, owe an apology to members for not taking more care in moderating and/or moving posts to threads where they belong.
Elfstone: Is that an apology? Because to me it looks more like justification. "I'm sorry..... but someone else started it" is not an apology - that is finger pointing.
6-7 political posts.. I fail to see them. Perhaps we have differing views on what politics is.
1 the activities of the government, members of law-making organizations or people who try to influence the way a country is governed:
Joe is very active in left-wing politics.
2 the job of holding a position of power in the government:
The group is campaigning to get more women into politics.
He is planning to retire from politics next year.
3 the study of the ways in which a country is governed:
She read politics at Leicester University.
There are 4 senteces that can be (with a LOT of effort!!!!) taken political:
Ross': "Rebels, traitors" and my reply to it, both very tongue-in-cheek and both very obviosly so.
Stonehelm: "I must say, there is no other country that I would rather have as a friend than Great Britian." I didn't think it political, only a comment on the good relation there has been between US and UK pretty much ever since.
Virumor's reply: "Yup, i have been noticing that this year."
Come on! That was just begging to be said! He then moves swiftly on!!, back to the theme being discussed. HISTORY!! Not politics! 4th of July is a day celebrating an historic event - the birth of the US of A. An importan event, involving UK, US and France. How is that off topic? And it certainly "has something to do with the topic", if not, granted, being the intent of the thread. I don't think your reaction would have been different if the same posts had been posted in another thread, so by and large that is irrelevant in this.
some of which containing very questionable comments about my country
What? Where? The only thing I can find that possibly does that is the description of Washington as "clumzy". I don't know enough about the guy to know if that is a fair assessment or not, or wether that is something being discussed by historians. Was that what made you blow up?
My comment on country music and soap operas: In Norway (and Sweden and Germany++) by far the bulk of all series and movies on TV are from America. Also, most of the music on radio also is American. In some inland areas of Norway American country culture is very strong. You'll find lots of people in boots and riding jeans driving around in picups.
Is that negative towards USA? No. It is negative towards Norway, for not being able to self create entertainment and music that people want, but instead mindlessly buy anything branded "Made in the USA"
The way I see it there was one and one person only that brought politics into that thread, and that was you Elfstone. You are entitled to do mistakes yes, but didn't they appear to you after Grondy's very quick and elegant intervention to smoothe things over? There is a 26 hour timegap before Vir posted. Time enough to cool down and rethink I would believe.
There is also a very bad attack on another country in that thread: "We liberated France in WW2, something all French people seem to conveniently forget."
You are here making very serious accusations, and also display very worrying prejudices. "All French people" You don't know that. Seriously! You don't! You are stereotyping!
Moving swiftly on..
So for the record, once and for all, officially, I had absolutely nothing to do with that thread being shut down!
You were not the person locking it, quite correctly. But: Do you think it would have been locked then had it not been for your post?
I case anyone is wondering: no, I've not sent any PM's to Elfstone.
All I did was merely voice my personal opinion on the subject of that thread. Apparently though, according to some other members here I shouldnít be allowed to voice my opinion?
Wrong. You went a lot further than voicing your opinion. You personally attacked the participants in that thread!
Iím sorry, Iíve tried but I absolutely fail to see how this thread has any relevance, or socially redeeming value whatsoever!
No socially redeeming value.. Is that not a comment on what you think of the individuals posting there? It sure looks like it, and I have no trouble understanding that some of them take offence by that!
As a true Tolkien fan I find this thread to be completely and utterly embarrassing to Planet-Tolkien.com, and for itís membership,
Again. Is this not a comment on those posting in this thread? You basically say that a "true Tolkien fan" would "find this thread to be completely and utterly embarrasing to PT and its membership". Ergo: those posting there can not be true Tolkien fans. Right? Do you expect to make such accusations and no one would react to it? You proven yourself able to take offence from the most innocent of comments in the 4th of July thread, and your views here are certainly NOT innocent!
Iím just glad that J.R.R. is no longer alive to see this ridiculous, embarrassing thread. If he could see this thread from the afterlife, he is probably rolling in his grave right now, shaking his head in disgust, and disbelief.
This thread is a crying shame! No offense, but whether you people realize it or not, you are doing a serious disservice to the memory of J.R.R. Tolkien!
Did you know Tolkien as a person? Why should you know so much better than anyone what Tolkien's reaction would be? I don't know him, but to me he seems like a person with humour and warmth. I do not think pride and joy would be his reaction to the thread, but I am not so sure he wouldn't smirk a bit at it either! You are using big, big words here Elfstone, and you have no right to.
What you are in fact doing is called projection. You project your personal views and cultural values onto Tolkien. Farthing is not that big a deal in many areas of the world. Here it is something one tries to avoid in public, but is not so much a social taboo as in, say, Southern USA. (I don't know where you live, but as I said, we have a LOT of TV from USA..)
Amen Val couldnít agree with you more! Forgive them Eru, they know not what they do!
Well, neighter do you, mate.
I won't expect this post to last very long. But Elfstone: please read it through a couple of times, will you? Perhaps you won't see thing my way, but at least you will see what my view is. Then we could avoid this sort of things in the future.
What you have written is not an apology, it is a justification. You do apologize for any offence you caused anyone, and that is big of you and I commend you for it. But you do not apologize your posts, in fact you are defending them.
Wishing everyone peace and prosperity for the future.
What you have written is not an apology, it is a justification. You do apologize for any offence you caused anyone, and that is big of you and I commend you for it. But you do not apologize your posts, in fact you are defending them
On this point, I disagree with you Grev. It is an apology with an explanation. An explanation often sounds like defending one's actions and even may sound like justifying them, but it is just explaining how and why something happened. This is normally what people do.
I find forums a very difficult medium for communication because there is no opportunity for immediate response, clarification of thought or body language. We could go round and round on this forever and never reach peace.
The truth is, as a CM, I am beginning to feel that I cannot win. If I see something that 'I' may feel needs trouble shooting, be it locking for cooling down period or for council discussion, then I may find myself publically attacked as if I am some sort of power monger. I do appreciate those who have contacted me privately with your concerns and because of this respect that you have shown me I am willing to listen and reconsider my position.
Yes, you can explain yourself in an apology. But explain why you did something you regret that is, not eplain why you (still) think you are right.
"I'm sorry, I had a bad day and took it out on you" is an apology with an explanation.
"I'm sorry, but he made me do it" is not an apology, that is justification.
True, forums can be difficult. About 70% of our communication in a conversation is body language, something sadly missing on forums. Therefore smileys were invented. They don't fill the gap, but they help a bit.
To me the thing to do when something can be read in several ways is to give the poster the benefit of the doubt. I don't assume something is an attack, just because it is possible to interpret it that way.(althoug this is not the thread where that statement is best viewed in action.) I am not in doubt over Elfstone's intent here.
I have already recieved support PM's from people I have never talked to before for this post. I'm not the only one being disgruntled over recent events here.
The truth is, as a CM, I am beginning to feel that I cannot win.
It's like cleaning a house. No one will thank you for doing it, but all will surely complain if you stop! Or being a parking warden. Not a grateful job.
The trick is to be consistant. So that everybody knows what is accepted and what isn't. Right now I'm very unsure... That was really what I was wondering over in "Fans over 40" too. It seemed that anything anyone possibly could manage to take offence of was banned. Which doesn't leave much! Perhaps the Council should try to calibrate their tolerance levels a bit more, and try to communicate to us members where the line goes. "Anything offensive" just isn't clear enough, as that seems to be just about anything to some.
You have my deepest symphathy on the daily decision making. And I think the Council generally is doing a good job.
I chose the CM's who I knew and believe can do the job and put my trust in. It stops there. You as members do not questions their actions or judgements, if you have a problem, direct it to me (firstname.lastname@example.org), do not go querying their decisions in the forum, in private messages or any other medium within PT.
You have joined a community that has rules, decided by myself for what I think is the better of the site and its members. If you don't like the way things are run around here, please leave.
Sorry it isn't gonna be a rant even though a few folk would like ta see one and it would work too their advantage.
I didn't think Gastric Eruptions would cause such a stir but I'm glad it did. It wasn' meant ta though it was only about a few of us havin' a laugh and discussin' sumthin' quirky. And then someone has to come from their moral high chair and call us heathens and then make a few remarks and next thing you know the thread is locked.* Darren remembers 4th of July*
This is a good site but it has seen better days. There was a mass Exodus a few months back a few members didn't like the way the site was going and lookin back I wished I had went.
But I decided ta stay on ta see if it got better and seeing what has happened over the past few weeks I can see that it hasn'.
Our own opinions and views get locked away and deleted while others still ramble on. Looks ta me like its a rule for us and a rule for the rest.
Certain members views our seen to be more credible than others.
And tell me why we aren' allows to question a council member if a thread gets locked. Its not open for discussion sorry but it is open to discussion. The council look after their own and the rest of us just have ta go along with it.
We had a chance when Plastic was there...now were buggered and the rest of will get shafted round every corner...you's one know who you are. The council and moderaters (chatroom inculded) need ta take a good look at themselves a shake up his needed but that won't happen and It will be written that I can have my opinion...yeah right.
They should rename this site Planet-Tolkien1984.com
So watch and see what happens me Im getting the hell outta here. I could stay but my opinions would mean s*** and then I'd probably get kicked.
I don' know if any folks will read this the great and mighty may delete this. Won't be the first time.
So for one last time take it easy and I'll see yah all on the flipside....you's folks know who you are the rest can all go fish.