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Give it two months before a copy-cat takes over? No maybe two and a half.
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Well we caught the sniper(thank goodness!) What do you all think?
I think he should have stuck to playing Unreal Tournament. I feel those great first person shooters totally sate my appetite whenever I get the urge to blow someone's head off. Someone once said to me that such games encourage violence. I'd disagree. Now the games are getting more realistic (Ie. Soldier of Fortune II's Ghoul Technology) I can beat, slash, shoot, kill and mutilate things without hurting a soul. My friend's no longer have to suffer me attacking them with swords, sticks and air-rifles anymore (we won't mention paintballing though)
Yeah, Your probably right Taz, there's gonna be some other creep that will do the exact same thing. I just hope we will catch him before he gets a chance to kill 10 people like this one did.
YES! VICTORY IS OURS< THE SNIPER IS DEAD
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YES! VICTORY IS OURS< THE SNIPER IS DEAD
Not yet Gothan7, it will propbally take a few years of failed appeals before we yet can do the dastards in.

Now if only the hostages in the Russian theatre can be saved with no loss of life. My God, these are "interesting times". Very Sad Smilie
The problem lies with the amount of media attention the first sniper(s) got, thus the reason for copy-cat killers to come out of the wood work lies deep and far more apealing. Not to mention think how many terrorist organisations out there saw the coverage the sniper(s) got including the president getting involved himself. In my own personal opinion this is only the beginning.
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Now if only the hostages in the Russian theatre can be saved with no loss of life.

The terrorists said that they'll let them go only if the president announces the end of war with Chechnya. If not, they're gonna start shooting the hostages at 6 a.m. today (Saturday).
The chechens just shot 2 people and 2 more are hurt. Very Sad Smilie
Those godd*m terrorists! Mad Smilie

(I was born in Moscow and I love that place... you have no idea how mad I am... so I'm just following the news really closely here in New York.)
.....ok...I somehow presume the Apocalypse is right around the corner Paranoid Smilie ....I'm with you,elentari-but I'm sorry to say this,i think those crazy imbecils will do some more casualties.What's wrong with this world?
There's absolutely nothing wrong with this world, raptor, it's the people who live on it that are the problem. Well, some people.
It is my opinion that all these terrorists are cowards, all they seem to be able do do is kill civilians and children and that just makes me hate them all the more.

More than 90 people died in Moscow. Very Sad Smilie
(Why isn't there a crying smiley?)

But at least the terrorists didn't get what they wanted.
Very Sad Smilie Tears, tears, and yet again more tears.
I cannot find words to express my feelings Elentari31... but I cannot stop to think about all these innocent people and their suffering, and the suffering of their families...

[Edited on 26/10/2002 by Eryan]
I cannot understand that people still can't see violence is not the solution to problems. But then I can't imagine being in a situation like theirs, so I probably don't know what I'm talking about.

Yet the innocent are always the victims. Why why why? Very Sad Smilie
Sad Smilie Very Sad Smilie
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But at least the terrorists didn't get what they wanted.


I hope that was Ironic, I know terrorists should not be given into, but when you balance it up against all the lives lost, sometimes maybe a bit of concession isn't such a bad thing?
The point is that if terrorism never works, perhaps there will be less terrorists. Except of course for the insane ones. The definition of insanity is to perform the same action over and over, expecting a different result.

Anywho, terrorism should NEVER work, even a little, because if it does, we'll have even more crawling out of the woodwork.
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I know terrorists should not be given into, but when you balance it up against all the lives lost, sometimes maybe a bit of concession isn't such a bad thing?

A little bit of concession? They were asking for the Russian troops to leave Chechnya and to end the war. But of course, 117 people died... oh, the horror Very Sad Smilie ... Why does such terrible stuff happen?
The Sniper: Perhaps a public execution would deter copy-cats? Brutal, but was effective enough in Medieval times.

Terrorists: If you give in --> encourages others --> even more people die
You cannot afford to give in to terrorists, misguided, brainwashed, ignorant, insane or otherwise.
giving in is one thing, but being stupid enough to alegedly use a narcotic based gas on people who were with out food or sleep for several days is another...


They didnt even bother to tell the local hospitals and so forth how to treat them, only to expect them....

I dont have the answer to what they could have done instead.. but surely poisioning hostages wasn't the best idea... and they did poison them.. as evident by over 100 dead.. thats not an alergic reaction....



as for the sniper, I dont believe in the death penalty, but surely the police could have accidently blown the car away right???? Maybe they will accidently forget their bullet proof vests, and will accidently release the exact time and place for transporting them.... Then a nice citizen could accidently show them how it feels to have a hole blown through your chest.....

[Edited on 30/10/2002 by gimli_axe_wielder]
I agree with you Gimli. When more than 100 people die than that is definately not an allergic reaction. I was deeply disgusted with the way the russians handled this. (if anyone if from russia I apologize for that, but it's my oninion.)
I also think it was a crying shame; however, the Russians were between a rock and a hard spot. They had to disable the terrorists so the building and hostages weren't blown-up, and before the deadline when the shooting of the hostages was scheduled.

Still, they should have told the hospitals the name and nature of the gas, and have had more anti-toxin, medics, and ambulances standing by. I think the 600 survivors should thank God for their lives. And everybody else in Russia should lean on their government officials to be less secretive, even though secretiveness is in the Russian genes.

(Sorry for this stereotyping.) Orc Sad Smilie
I against death penalty. I think it's better to let them have their own personal living hell locked up in prison till the day they die and then let the man upstairs do whatever he does to us after we die. Yes, it makes us feel better to know he/she is dead, but killing is wrong no matter who does it (unless it's self-defence of course) and makes us no better than any other killers.

I know the russians were taking their stand against terrorism and all but come on!!! What did they think was going to happen when they go pumping gas into a building??

It makes me sick that even though 700 people were saved over 100 had to die. It's not what I would call a victory over terrorism. But don't get me wrong I am glad that no more died in this event. It just seems that we never win and civilians are always dying.
Wouldn't have made you sicker to find out that 700 innocent people died?And I think death penalty is not an option in this case-those criminals would become martirs-they should be left to rott in a 1/1 cell,to set an example to ohers that might try something like this.

[Edited on 30/10/2002 by raptor]
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I know the russians were taking their stand against terrorism and all but come on!!! What did they think was going to happen when they go pumping gas into a building??

I'm sorry, but what else could they do? If they didn't do something the terrorists would've shot all 700 hostages.
Anilorak is right:
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Even though my heart goes out to the innocent Russian civilians who died, I think the Russians were right in putting their foot down and not letting terrorism prevail.

I agree.
At one time I thought terrorists were only happy to martyr themselves for the cause when they knew they had a good chance of escaping. In the last twenty years, however, anti-terrorist squads have become so well trained, there is little chance of terrorists surviving once negotiations break down.

I just wish the people who preach to these gullible young people and encourage them to become martyrs, would be the next people to fly a plane into a building. Once those cancankerous old gits had successfully martyred themselves, maybe the trouble would stop. Until these mindwashing religious zealots are stopped, there will never be an end to the present troubles.

If these b*****ds want a war, give them one. And don't do it with one hand tied behind your back. Nuke the bloody lot of them. I know the arguement against this is that millions of innocent people would die. But how can any citizen in such a country call themself innocent when they allow their leaders to behave in such a way. Okay, it cannot be easy to rise up against a military dictator, but if I read things correctly, it was the people of Afganistan that rose up against the Taliban. Civil war is a nasty and bloody business, but if you allow your leaders to commit atrocities in your nation's name and do nothing about it, you are not exactly innocent yourself.

Such tinpot dictators maintain their rule through terror tacticts. I'd hate to be in a situation where I had to live under such a leadership, and would be terrified of sticking my neck out, but they only maintain control by suppressing the masses. If the entire populace were to rise up against them, they'd soon be out. So if it comes to war, and people start complaining about innocent victims, don't forget anyone who lets someone else get away with such acts is himself an accomplice. If your leader provokes a situation in which you are liable to get nuked, either stand with him or stand against him.
Val,
I can't agree with a large part of the views put forward by you, but I am too tired today to write why! Perhaps I will return to this matter later on...
Canadian Entertainers? Like Celine Dion and Bryan Adams? Frankly they can keep 'em.
*being deliberately antagonistic again*
Hey I know what you're Anilorak, but why should we give up our friendship with Israel just because some little petty desert king doesn't like it? I mean, they have no right to kill us just because we don't think like them. And Bin Laden hates us because we we on Saudi soil, so it't not just Israel.

[Edited on 1/11/2002 by Stonehelm]
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As much as I'm refreshed by your 'Nuke Them' policy
Actually, contrary to the way my last post sounded, I deplore the thought of war, particularly with nuclear weapons. Wars are terrible, terrible things and cause so much suffering and bitterness. We in the West probably deserve the the wrath of the Middle Eastern terrorists for our actions in their country, for after all, we are infidels who should not soil their sand with our feet. At the end of the day, we do not properly understand their religion, and constantly commit taboos because of our ignorance.

It's just the way that the world seems to be toitering on the verge of destruction at the moment. I feel sure that within the next ten years something terrible is going to kick off, and if it does, everyone will have to decide which side they want to be on. What I was trying to say was, if the s**t does hit the fan, it is going to effect everyone and there is going to be a lot of suffering. There must be a lot of people in the Middle East who don't want to get dragged into this conflict by their leaders, get bombed and lose their homes and families. If so, they should make their choices now.

I'm not saying we in the West are right (the fact we are more concerned about oil than lives stinks for starters), but that is the side I am on. Wars are nasty affairs, but if you are willing to kill and maim people in the first place, why make the pretence of doing it with a surgeons precision. We may have the technology to fly a cruise missile along a street and hit a specific building (and how loud are the cries condemning the death of a civilian when one does happen to miss), but did the terrorists believe they were hitting a military target on September 11th. War is nasty... Why play to one set of rules when your enemy doesn't.

If it does come to war, and I really hope it doesn't, I'd rather our leaders use our military potential (ie. whatever weapons we have in our arsenals) and get the d****d thing over with quickly. I'm sure the Japanese would have preferred to make the American's fight for every inch of soil they took at the end of WWII, but they weren't given the opportunity. Having a nuclear bomb explode over your city must be terrible, and I know all about the lasting damage it causes, but fuel/air mixtures and good old TNT aren't very nice either.

Before these terrorists try poking the West with their sticks again, they should be made aware of what they might wake up.
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but why should we give up our friendship with Israel just because some little petty desert king doesn't like it? I mean, they have no right to kill us just because we don't think like them.


There's a bit more to it than that, some of the atrocities carried out by the Israelis when they TOOK Palestine away from it's natives are really very gruesome. And whose idea was it to give Israel back to the Jews? Hmmm... lets think now, and how much help and support did they then give to the Palestinians (who they promised a great deal too) during this difficult time, **** all, that's what. And that's why the Palestinians aren't too keen on the Americans in general.

THIS IS NOT A SLUR ON YOU AMERICANS AND YOUR COUNTRY/WAY OF LIFE, IT'S JUST A HISTORICAL FACT THAT GETS BLURRED OVER ALL TOO OFTEN. NO OFFENCE IS INTENDED.
LOL! Was that last bit for my benefit Plastic? No need. I have made a resolution that I'm not gonna get all fired up about these political things anymore.

I would, however, like to clarify the chain of events that led to the birth of Israel as we know it today.

It all started waaaay back in the late 1800's with the Zionist movement. European Jews began emigrating to Palestine around 1870 (I think...around there). In the late 1890's a bunch of Zionists got together and decided that the Jews, hopefully with some help from Turkey, should have their own homeland. Over the years, more and more Jews immigrated to Palestine from Europe.

During WWI, When the Ottoman Empire collapsed, Palestine came under British rule and the British decided that, yes, the Jews deserved a homeland and that Britain would help establish it (it was called the Balfour Declaration, or something like that). Jewish immigration went way up and the Arabs, needless to say, got P.O.ed, and things got really ugly...

Jump forward to WWII. The Palestinian Jews, of course, supported the war effort of allied nations which, boys being boys, meant that the Anti Zionists supported the Nazi's. At least, they didn't see anything wrong with killing Jews in large numbers... At that point, Britain limited the number of Jews immigrating to Palestine to 2,000 a month.

That's when THE JEWISH LEADERS THEMSELVES went to the United Nations and said, in a nutshell, "We want a country of our own!" A UN Special Committee recommended that, since the Jews were already there, under their own power mind you, that Palestine should be divided into Jewish and Arab sectors. The United Nations adopted the recommendation, the British packed up and left, and in 1948, with the votes of many nations, the US and Britain included, the independent state of Isreal was born, and the middle east hasn't seen peace since. America and Britain have been Israel's greatest allies ever since.

And I shall refrain from giving my opinion on any of it because that's what always gets me in trouble...
Yeah. We british are at fault on this one as well, I admit it. Badly handled all round was 1948, the UN made a right pigs ear of the whole thing. It was decided to have the Jewish and Palestinian sectors, but when no clear cut could be made, the UN washed their hands of it, and it all turned to s**t really. Everyone wants Jerusalem. (Man History classes seem a long time ago, and I am making a lot of this up I know) I'm just trying to see everyone's point of view again).
Going to hell or heaven isn't that depending on your religion/believes??

like me I won't go to Heaven nor to Hell I'll just die and end exsisting eventually my corpse will be rotted away and only a stone will remind some people I have roamed the earth.

And someone who believes in Heaven and Hell will go to his/her Heaven or Hell

Prog has got the history down near as I remember getting brainwashed about it, and it fits in with Lawrence's "Seven Pillars of Wisdom" too, where he was bent out of shape at the Arabs because when they had control of Damascus, let everything turn to cr*p. Then latter after the Great War was over, the British and French governments went against their word to the Arabs, so he was also disgusted with those governments. Nobody's hands are clean on this one.

The best I can see is for old Jerusalem to be a open city administered by the UN and a ruling body made up of the three religions. The two independent Nations of Israel and Palestine can each call it their capitol city. Of course for this to happen, the Jews will have to give up their West Bank settlements; Hamas and a couple other terrorist organizations will have to give up trying to push Israel into the Mediterranean; Sharon, Netanyahu and Arafat will have to be permanently replaced; and Hell will have to freeze over.
Why the h*ll does everyone always blame the Americans, and in this case the British? Seems like whenever somthing goes wrong everyone points to the west. The reason the Palestinians hate the Israelies is because when the U.N. devided Palestine between the Zionists and the Palestinians, the Arab world all attacked the Jews to force them out. Result, the Jews kicked their butt, so the Palestinians lost the land they would have gotten in a fair war that they started.

I am not trying to start any fights with anyone Ok? This is just the way I see it.
in the Bible we are told that those who protect God's chosen pple (the Jews) will be blessed themselves! and the whole thing w/ Jews and other Arabs always fightin has a Biblical background. Abraham had 2 sons(that we know of), Ishmael and Isaac. Ishmael wuz born first but wuznt the son chosen by God to begin his chosen nation. Isaac wuz and that is the root of all the wars that are fought over the Middle East 2day!
many terrorists claim that they r fightin a jehad, a holy war. but other followers of Islam say that fightin is not supported in their religion! that shows us that the leaders of many of these Mid. East countries r basically startin their own religion and brainwashin their pple 2 beleive it. i dont support terrorists and i do think we should go over there and nuke the place, but 1st i believe we should give them all a chance 2 leave and start over in a diff. country, not necessarily America.
Another bad news.......
Some idiot threw a deffensive grenade in front of a highschool in our capital city and 3 or 4 girls are in the hospital one step to death.
I can't belive what happenes these days in this f__ __ __ _world... Sad Smilie
It's just so bloody sick! What is killing teenage girls going to prove??
killin defenseless pple will prove nothin! those that r killin others r just afraid 2 target sum1 w/ a gun!
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Some idiot threw a deffensive grenade in front of a highschool in our capital city and 3 or 4 girls are in the hospital one step to death

I am so sorry Raptor. Sad Smilie
Yes, me too Raptor, it is a shame. It is also a shame that these terrorists can't find something more productive to do with their lives than take the lives of innocent non-combatants. Very Sad Smilie

Happy Elf Smilie At least we have one up on them: When a terrorist thinks that he has arrived in paradise, and is surrounded by his awaiting allotment of virgins, we can all laugh knowing he is actually in hell, and knowing that each of those surrounding beautiful demons bears the mother of all social diseases.

Cool Elf Smilie Eternity in hell is a very long time, doubly so lacking a source of an antibiotic. Elf With a Big Grin Smilie
Indeed.You are what you belive.

For what i've seen and heared till now,I think hell is up here.I am so sick of this pathetic,meaningless,cruel and twisted world!....
Meaningless, Raptor? I do not feel so!
I will answer you by a quote from the "Silmarillion", a fragment of the song sang by Beren when parting on his hopeless errand...
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Though all to ruin fell the world
and were dissolved and backward hurled
unmade into the old abyss,
yet were its making good, for this -
the dusk, the dawn, the earth, the sea -
that Luthien for a time should be

And yet another quote, this time from FOTR:
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"I have never been out of my land before. And if I had known what the world outside was like, I don't think I should have had the heart to leave it"
"Not even to see fair Lothlorien?" said Haldir "The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater

This world, our world, is inhabited not only by evil, cruel, heartless, selfish, twisted men... but also by many beautiful people, noble, heroic, benevolent, ready to self-sacrifice, intelligent, creative... Let us not forget that when all seems hopeless!
I know,Eryan,i know....though....this is not ME.And beauty is burried deep beneath ugliness and misery.And i don't think i can get over them.And when i seem to succede there's always some pile of cr$p jumping right over.I have tryed lately to get as many people read the books/see the movie and liked them,but I'm sad cause they can only see the surface,and can't understand the beauty within;only one,and even she wown't venture into its magic... Sad Smilie remember what Boromir said in the movie:
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She said to me, even now, there is hope left, but I cannot see it.


Neither can I.

[Edited on 9/11/2002 by raptor]
I have been most fortunate so far in my life. My parents have been wonderful to me, I have been brought up in a safe part of the world where the only thing to complain about is the weather (and even that is not dangerous), I have always been well fed and comfortably warm. I have lived in a time where I have been safe from the ravages of war and disease. I am fit and healthy, as are my children. I am most fortunate, and I am consiously aware of how fortunate I am.

My heart and thoughts go out to all those people who are less fortunate, and whose lives are full of anguish, pain, hunger and suffering. i hope one day that the world sorts itself out and such miseries are a thing of the past.
It's true that this is a hard world but still I believe from all my heart that we should do our best to make it a better place - to be as noble and creative as possible!
ME was no paradise either and many of his heroes felt hopelessly miserable and caged... Some of them even finished by committing suicide, especially during the First Age, when the war against Morgoth was hopeless. Rian, Hurin, Turin... Aand even in the Third Age there was so much of misery and hopelessness. Exiled dwarves (Thorin & Comp.) during many years were very poor and had to work in coal mines. In Rohan Eowyn hated her life so much that she could not sleep... And even proud princes were not free from grief. Boromir and Faramir were half-orphans, they had lost their mother when still very young. And the mother of Elladan and Elrohirwas captured and tormented by the Orcs... The world created by Tolkien is not really different from ours in that respect...
As for beauty, I have seen in this here world some breathtakingly beautiful places which left me wonderful memories... Some of these places were close to Cluj Raptor!
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killin defenseless pple will prove nothin! those that r killin others r just afraid 2 target sum1 w/ a gun!


Erm... what precisely do you mean?
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