Login | Register
 
Message Board | Latest Posts | Your Recent Posts | Rules

Thread: What if...

Is this discussion interesting? Share it on Twitter!

Bottom of Page    Message Board > The Forsaken Inn > What if...   
I really wonder why Saruman and Wormtongue went to Shire after their release from Orthanc! If I were Saruman, I'll head straight to Harad/Rhun. It seems that Harad/Rhyn countries caused still many problems to Aragorn (and Eomer) during many years to come, and Saruman as a military advisor might find warm welcome there!l
Revenge, Eryan. Those pesky little Hobbits had ruined his hopes of attaining his dreams of power. He wanted to take something equally precious to them - The Shire.
And he already had something going on there anyway, as revealed by his huge stash of Longbottom leaf.
But his revenge was such a clumsy one! He knew that Frodo & Comp. will be coming home soon. And they were simply arrested by a VERY inefficient hobbit force! He had the support of several cutthroat Men - why in ME he did not command them to waylaid Frodo & Comp. before they started to make a revolution in Shire?
WHAT IF - Frodo didn't go off to the Grey Havens...
maybe he wouldve gone of wandering like poor old cracked uncle Bilbo. but instead of ending up in Rivendel would stay with Aragorn in Minas Tirith. Pretty inevitable he'd go to the havens though given the circumstances.
Previous What if... Saruman would have wandered, but for how long before he returned to Aman? Would he ever return? He could possibly have become another dark lord in the South (albeit of much diminished power) Being Maiar, he holds a great deal of knowledge and would have caused Aragorn a whole lot more trouble if he teamed up with the people of Harad and Umbar!
On the Saruman question, I tend to agree with Rednell and Plastic; it was an act of revenge on the Hobbits that had ruined his dreams, and he knew something of the Shire already from his dealings with the tobacco barons.

Just from reading RotK you get the impression that Saruman had entered the Shire pretty soon after Isengard had fallen and Gandalf had broken his staff. This is not the case, however. It was six months after the destruction of the Ring before he entered the Shire, and he arrived there only 38 days before Frodo and Co returned.

I believe Gandalf breaking his staff was symbolic in a way. I believe Gandalf was casting him out of the Order of Istari (perhaps on Manwe's bidding - after all Gandalf had just returned from Valinor). Whatever, Saruman appeared to have lost all of his powers except persuasion, and was pretty much a broken man at this point. If he had anything left in him, I think he would have used his powers more effectively by going east or south, rather than commiting petty vandalism to the Shire. His acts there served no long term gain for him from what I can see, and could only have been motivated by revenge.

Continuing with this line of thought, and in doing so attempting to answer Prog's original question, if Wormtongue had not killed him, he would have drifted from settlement to settlement, bullying himself into people's lives until either he just became a drunken bum or someone else stood up to him and killed him. He was too used to being Mr Big, the Head of the Order & White Council etc. He couldn't take no longer having powers, and he would not have been willing to use his intellegence etc to rebuild his life.
I think that Frodo might indeed go to Minas Tirith, to be with Aragorn and Arwen, and why not to Ithilien, to stay a bit with Faramir and Eowyn? They wished to transform Ithilien into a beautiful garden, and that might be a nice resting place for Frodo...
I agree Val. There wasn't much fire left in Saruman after the Hobbits whooped him. Probably would have found himself a quiet corner of ME to haunt and wither. His list of enemies was extensive enough that eventually some would have caught up with him and put him out of his misery.

I think Frodo would have stayed in the Shire, perhaps visiting Gondor from time to time. Sailing to the Undying Lands was his best choice though.
Quote:
Just from reading RotK you get the impression that Saruman had entered the Shire pretty soon after Isengard had fallen and Gandalf had broken his staff. This is not the case, however. It was six months after the destruction of the Ring before he entered the Shire, and he arrived there only 38 days before Frodo and Co returned.
You can only get that impression Val, if you skipped the last meeting in Dunland between Saruman (accompanied by Wormtoungue) and Gandalf, Galadriel, and Elrond (accompanied by the four hobbits). This meeting took place six days after they had departed from the King's presence near the Gap of Rohan. And can be found about two-thirds into Chapter 6 entitled 'Many Partings' in Book VI, of the ROTK. Val's chronography in the last quoted sentence agrees this meeting and I assume the number of days can be ascertained using Appendix B of ROTK.

I think Frodo would have ended up at Rivendel if Elrond was still there, or as Eryan suggested with Faramir and Eowyn in Ilithien. I think Minas Tirith would have been too lively for Frodo.

I don't understand why Saruman was so bitter against the Hobbits. That they were weak made it easy for him to exact his petty revenge, or was that it? Now he had lost powers, they were the only ones available, as the three bearers of the Elven Rings were much strong, even with the One Ring now destroyed. Elf Confused Smilie
What if Faramir was not wounded during the siege of Minas Tirith, and, consequently, Denethor did not commit suicide before the coming of Aragorn to Minas Tirith, but continued to fight?
I think Denethor was destined for suicide no matter what. I think he would have gone down to the river, after ARagorns coronation/wedding, slipped into it and let himself be taken to the sea...

But if Faramir hadn't been wounded - would Eowyn have fallen for him? I think he and she would have eventually got together, but it would have been painful for Eowynn to watch ARagorn get married without someone to lean on... maybe she would have gone with Denethor...
Quote:
Just from reading RotK you get the impression that Saruman had entered the Shire pretty soon after Isengard had fallen
Quote:
You can only get that impression Val, if you skipped the last meeting in Dunland between Saruman (accompanied by Wormtoungue) and Gandalf, Galadriel, and Elrond (accompanied by the four hobbits).
I realised they had met on the road, but what I was refering to was the state of the damage done to the Shire. Considering he had only been there just over a month, he had managed to turn the place on end. I know it doesn't take long to ruin something if you set your mind to it, but reading that chapter, it just feels as though he's been there a long time.

Frodo, I believe would have remained in the Shire if he had not gone over the sea. With Bilbo and Elrond gone from Rivendell, there would be no attraction there, and I believe Ithilien would be too close to Mordor and its bad memories for him. He'd have settled into a very quiet life, maybe venturing as far as the Green Hill Country to meet with any elves that remained, but his health would have deteriated gradually until he died quite young from his wounds.

I'll have to think further on the Denethor question, though I suspect he would have died in battle, maybe facing the Witch-king when he broke through the gates. And Faramir would have finished up wounded whatever. He would have remained in the thick of the battle, rallying his men until some archer managed to take him out.
Quote:
I realized they had met on the road, but what I was referring to was the state of the damage done to the Shire. Considering he had only been there just over a month, he had managed to turn the place on end. I know it doesn't take long to ruin something if you set your mind to it, but reading that chapter, it just feels as though he's been there a long time.
Okay, Got The Blues Smilie but I figure it was Lotho who had been trading with Isengard all along. And Lotho, as Saruman's surrogate 'Chief', had six months to get the ball rolling, to start stripping away the traditions (freedoms) of The Shire, installing his own police force, bringing in the Dunlendings, etc.. So that when Sharkey finally showed up, most of the work had already been started and all he had to do was to put his finishing stamp on it by cutting down the trees, founding the Bagshot Row Gravel Pit, and modernizing(?) the mill: things designed to really get Frodo's goat. Leastwise, that's my take on the situation that the four companions found when they arrived back in The Shire. Happy Elf Smilie
ok everythin is gettin 2 confusin 4 me so i'll start another question!
wat if Bilbo had never gotten that mithril armor and so had never been able 2 give it 2 Frodo and Frodo got killed in Moria!? i know it's a long question, but i've just been wonderin...
Maybe Sam would've been the new ringbearer (as happens with the Shelob incident) and would've gone to Morodor.
If Frodo had gotten killed in Moria, I think everyone else would have died too probably. As it was they only just got across the bridge before the Balrog reached them. If Frodo had been killed, they would have almost certainly spent a few minutes consolling Sam and the other Hobbits. This time wasted would have been critical and the balrog would have cut them off.

If they had escaped the balrog, I'm not sure who the Ringbearer would have been. Sam bore the Ring after he thought Shelob had killed Frodo, but that was because he was the only person left. Among a party he wouldn't have been the natural choice. Assuming Gandalf still did the flying trick with the Balrog, maybe Aragorn would have let Sam hold the Ring for safe keeping, but would have then been forced to guide Sam into Mordor himself.

The other choice would have perhaps been Merry. With hindsight, we can see Sam would have been a good choice, but without the benefit of foresight, maybe Merry would have seemed the more natural choice, a) because he had studied the maps in Rivendell, b) because he was a future nobleman whereas Sam was a servant, c) He wasn't quite as dumb as the movie made him out to be. It was him who had originally guessed Frodo's plans to leave the Shire and had enrolled Sam as a spy. In a way, Merry reminded me of a young Frodo.
I somehow feel that if Frodo was killed in Moria, Aragorn would have to be a new Ring Bearer... Perhaps because it was him who lifted the body of Frodo when he fell wounded by the Orc. So, naturally, he would take the Ring to secure it from falling into Enemy's hands... and perhaps it would be the simplest option if he kept it. I don't think that he would like to get rid of that burden by transferring it on another hobbit. I know that he desired above all to go to Minas Tirith with Boromir, but the matter of the Ring was prioritary...
Assuming that ARagorn would have still been in charge if Frodo (and Gandlaf) had fallen at Moria - then I think his logical choice would have been Sam. Merry was too close to Boromir and suspicions on Boromir had already begun to rise - after Pippin's rock down the well - Pippin was obviously out. If it were Aragorns choice - I think it would have been between Sam and Merry - and since Sam had already formed an attachment with "strider" I think he would have been the choice.
What if Sam broke both legs when descending the hills of Emyn Muil? (I am serious - that might have happened!)

[Edited on 11/11/2002 by Eryan]
Tolkien liked his characters to do miraculous things didn't he? Gandalf surviving the fall with the balrog, Eowyn's battle with the witch-king, Frodo surviving the wounding by the morgul blade long enough to reach Rivendel, Sam's wounding of Shelob and so on.

Sam descending the hills of Emyn Muil without breaking his legs (or anything else for that matter) was really quite miraculous. Most of the characters in LOTR seem to survive with realatively few injuries.

Still, perhaps Sam was guided by providence?

But if it had happened, I am sure that Sam would have insisted that Frodo go on without him. Frodo, knowing the importance of the quest, would probably have done so, with Gollum following. IMO, it is hard to say if things really would have turned out differently.
That's a tough one. I'm not so sure Frodo would have left Sam behind but if he did, I have little doubt he would have failed. I think even the most fervent Sam haters would have a hard time refuting the importance of his roll in Mordor. He saved Frodo from Shelob and the Orcs and also from Gollum. As I stated in another thread, I believe that Sam deserves at least as much credit as Frodo, and indeed, Gollum, for the destruction of the ring. Remove any one of the three and the odds for success are infinitesimal.
Cool! What cool alternate realities! Hmmm. Saruman, was a broken maiar after Gandalf was done with him. But if he didn't get killed for continuing his evil ways, he might have found a way to regain magical abilities with time. He was more than a Numenorean and very learned. The learned Numenoreans could wield magic. He might have simply had to re-learn how or find artifacts to re-empower himself.

Why do people hate Sam? He is loyal and caring, with greater depth than many give him credit for. Pippin says so himself, when Sam sings a piece of the Lay of Gil Galad. If he broke his legs, I think Frodo would have hidden him, gotten him food and water and gone on with the quest. Maybe a Ranger of Ithillien would have found him.

Now here is a What if? that has vexed me long... What if Faramir had gone instead of Boromir to Imladris? He respected Gandalf's advice and was a man of strong conviction and heart. Then Boromir would have been in Ithillien and at Osgiliath. I'd love to have seen that.
This question was already posed by Valedhelgwath, Glorfinel! Seek a thread entitled "Boromir/Faramir what if", or something like this... Big Smile Smilie
Hi there, Glorfinel, and welcome to our site. Hope you find your time here informative and enjoyable.

The thread Eryan has directed you to can be found by following the trail from the Board Index>Books>Lord of the Rings>Boromir/Faramir what if?

I'll look forward to reading your own views on this one to see how close we came to your own ideas.
Hey, Glorfinel, I like your nick and with the typing mistakes, it has become unique. Cool Elf Smilie
Spiffy-cool! Thanks for the info. Little by little I become more used to navigating the site. Not that it's hard. It isn't, but I'm not completely used to the environment. The re-direct is most helpful! Thanks again!