Login | Register
 
Message Board | Latest Posts | Your Recent Posts | Rules

Thread: The Catastrophe Theory

Is this discussion interesting? Share it on Twitter!

Bottom of Page    Message Board > The Golden Perch > The Catastrophe Theory   
Hey, has anybody heard about the Catastrophe theory? Well, if you've seen the recent movie Butterfly Effect, then I'll tell you this is exactly what it means.

There are many situations where we make choises. Now, according to the Catastrophe Theory, because of these choises the future events change. Its is said that such innumerable parallel worlds exist when some choises are made or some things happen that could have been otherwise, make a big difference to the history. You're in one of these worlds right now, because you've made some choises this way and not that!!!

Anyways, how about applying this theory to the events in LOTR??? I bet it'll get pretty interesting.

What we can do, is pick an event in the book, which could have been ended differently or a choise which could have been otherwise. Damn, you know what, we can even write our own version of the events in LOTR from this!!!! Umm, that was a little too much, but who knows, it is possible.Wink Smilie

So, what do you people think???
From TTT - Riders of Rohan...

Quote:
With astonishing speed and skill they checked their steeds, wheeled, and came charging round. Soon the three companions found themselves in a ring of horsemen moving in a running circle, up the hill-slope behind them and down, round and round them, and drawing ever inwards. Aragorn stood silent, and the other two sat without moving, wondering what way things would turn.



So.... what if Eomer had asked questions later rather than sooner?

"Hmmmm orc friends, perhaps? A strange sword this one carried. And is this an elf? Since when were elves orc friends? Oh dear, I think we may have made a mistake. Ah well, keep quiet and no one will notice.... Burn the bodies, lads!"

So, no Aragorn, no Gimli and no Legolass...... that would change things at Rohan, Helms Deep and the Pelennor fields. Arwen would go with her father to The Undying Lands......


What if Smeagol hadn't killed Deagol, but let him keep the ring he found?
Or even better: If the two gave the ring to grandma or head of the family or whatever she was, instead of keeping it themselves?
Then instead of a Dark Lord we would have a Dark Queen who would make us milk and cookies and then torture us with knitted jumpers for Christmas....
Say, how about we pick such things up one by one and try to build up on it? Let's see where it might lead to! Let's stretch our imagination a bit, eh?
Super Scared Smilie Oh no!! Not knitted jumpers!!
And when the nazgul follows the trial of jumpers knitted with the power of the Ring, she'll make them wear itchy socks and make them go to bed early.
Just to add a bit more spice...
What would have happened if Sauron and Saruman had shown a bit more common sense and attacked Helm's Deep and Minas Tirith at the same time? Which one could have been saved???
Another thing,

If Gandalf was to discover that Bilbo's ring was the One Ring in the Hobbit itself. What would he have done? Could it have been destroyed before Sauron fled back to Mordor???
Saruman would have been pretty mad if that had happened!!! lol
Quote:
Then instead of a Dark Lord we would have a Dark Queen who would make us milk and cookies and then torture us with knitted jumpers for Christmas....


*Lass giggles* Very good, V !

Hey, floyd_n_milan... Huge welcome to PT! Smile Smilie

Excellent first (?) thread, btw. Very good thought, indeed! I'm sure this will draw a lot of attention & probably be another good 'Roleplay' type thread!

Seeya around Smile Smilie

Lass x
Quote:
So.... what if Eomer had asked questions later rather than sooner?

"Hmmmm orc friends, perhaps? A strange sword this one carried. And is this an elf? Since when were elves orc friends? Oh dear, I think we may have made a mistake. Ah well, keep quiet and no one will notice.... Burn the bodies, lads!"

So, no Aragorn, no Gimli and no Legolass...... that would change things at Rohan, Helms Deep and the Pelennor fields. Arwen would go with her father to The Undying Lands......


Hmm. You've got me thinking V.

OK. Here goes.

First, Gandalf, when he would come to know that the three of them are dead, he would try to locate anyone who was responsible. I think with Shadowfax with him, he would probably have found Eomer and his men and would come to know what had happened and he would be sad. But then, he'd make it Edoras with them anyway. He'd then, umm, free Theoden and I think they'd still go to Helm's Deep and all without those three. There in the actual battle, I think, orcs would still lose, but probably take many more mens' lives. But, I think the important ones like Eomer, Hama and Theoden would still survive.

Then I can safely jump directly to the part where the rangers come in. I think Gandalf would be wise enough to pick up Anduril anyways. But then, it would be useless, because now, there is no King left (Thinking of the Dead at this point, by the way what were they called? Can't recollect it).

Now, I can't continue at this point, because I do not know what would happen to the Kingship, because I guess no one has spoken about the throne of Gondor in my other thread "King". I think two threads of mine have crossed. I hope someone answers me there, because, I'm stuck here!!
A lot would depend on how long it took Gandalf to find out what had happened to Aragorn and friends. If Gandalf didn't make it in time to free Theoden and for Theoden to get to Helms Deep then all those already at Helms Deep would have been killed and the orcs would then have moved on to Edoras. Without the protection of Helms Deep Theoden would have found it difficult to last out until Gandalf came back with help in the form of Erkenbrand. The whole of Edoras would have been devastated and then there would be no one to go to the help of Minis Tirith. There would be no Army of the Dead to stop the Corsairs and Minis Tirith would have been wiped out. Gandalf would be riding around always a step too late......

Sauron would be in ignorance of Aragorn and go on thinking that there is no Isildur's heir to challenge him. He would have waited for Saruman to wipe out most of the opposition and then taken over at Minis Tirith and swept through the rest of Middle Earth.

The only hope was that Frodo would still have managed to make it to Mount Doom. But without Aragorn to draw the enemy's gaze away, Frodo would have had a hard job getting through Mordor. He may have been captured again and the Ring taken to Sauron who would put it on his finger and rule Middle Earth.....
And what if Sam had killed Gollum on the paths of Mount Doom? What would have happened when Frodo failed to destroy the Ring? Would Sam have been able to wrestle the ring from him? Would Sam have pushed Frodo into the fires of Mount Doom to save the world?

I think Sam would have become Frodo's number 1 servent, someone like say the Lord of the Nazgul!!! And, I wonder if Frodo after claiming the ring would become more powerful than Sauron without the ring.
Frodo wouldn't become more poweful than Sauron because the Ring was filled with his spirit and power so once Frodo had claimed the ring it would be simple thing for Sauron to take it from him.
What would be the case with someone like Galadriel or Gandalf?

Hey, hey, can nobody think about this???

Quote:
If Gandalf was to discover that Bilbo's ring was the One Ring in the Hobbit itself. What would he have done? Could it have been destroyed before Sauron fled back to Mordor???
If Gandalf had known about the One Ring at the end of The Hobbit, I don't think he could have talked Bilbo into taking it to Mordor and taking it from Bilbo may been have detrimental to Bilbo's mental health. Besides if he tried to carry it there himself, he would have fallen victim to its power. No I think things happened according to Eru's time frame:

And it came to pass in the fullness of time, that all the threads in Eru's plan started coming together as a birthday party in the Shire was being planned as summer ended in the eighteenth year of the Fourth Millenium of the Third Age of Middle-earth.

Still, you may play "What If The Lord of the Rings Had Been Written by Harry Turtledove." Elf With a Big Grin Smilie
Don't want to go there, Grondy, Gandalf would most likely wear a toga and Frodo would be flying a plane. Big Smile Smilie
I think Grondmaster nailed it; one of the good things Jackson did was preserve Gandalfs explanation to Frodo of how Bilbo found the Ring because he was meant to, and not by its maker. What we really have to determine is whether we're debating the power of fate or of destiny, two very different things. IMHO, even if Bilbo hadn't been fated to find the Ring, it was destined to be destroyed. This does have me in mind of the Portal Stones from a certain other wordy series I've been going on about, and with that in mind, I'll submit that sometimes there's only one choice that provides real differentiation, and all others are but a variation on a theme.
Quote:
This does have me in mind of the Portal Stones from a certain other wordy series I've been going on about

Are those the ones of the WOT ?
WoT has been mentioned so possibly although there are 'portal' stones in Robin Hobbs' Farseer books as well. Not sure whether they are actually called portal stones... but they might be.
I always wondered what if Gandalf got one or all of the eagles then road them to Mount Doom with Frodo, descended and dropped the ring in the lava. That alwayed seemed alot easier to me.
although it wouldn't make much of a story. The chapter "The shadow of the past" made it sound like the owner could get rid of the ring early on in his possession. If they did this early in Frodo's possession. I think that Frodo could bring himself to cast the ring in the fire from an eagles flight.


edited by Caud. to clarify
Sorry I missed your earlier post, Miruvor; without search funcitons and a way to get a list of all my old posts I tend to get lost, but yes, those were the Portal Stones I had in mind, specifically, all the different reality alternatives that Rand experienced en route to Falme that all ended with "I win again, Lews Therin." What I had in mind was the possibility that all other alternatives had been excluded by a kind of survival instinct the Creator instilled in the universe, and a similar thing done by Eru.

Oh, well, that's different then. Then the question is whether the Nines winged steeds could handle Gwaihir, but no question the collective might of the Eagles could handle them. Of course, the Fellowship didn't know about those winged mounts until they left Lorien, so there might be a new shortlived king of the Eagles (yes, I know the Nine had horses until Bruinen, but their winged mounts didn't just suddenly appear.) Possession of the Ring by other powerful members of Middle-Earth is (still) a rich "what if" domain itself I'm surprised we haven't seen more, thus Bilbo WAS meant to find the Ring, and be the only person who could to prevent disaster.

I guess I'll throw out a really unlikely one to keep it going: what if Morgoth had (or even Sauron legitmately) had reformed? Would evil have come about in Middle-Earth by another means? Would his creations have persisted with a mind of their own?
I think his creations would still be evil, but i don't think they would group to gether in armies like they did. They would flee to the tunnels in the mountains and stop reproducing in such great numbers. and eventually go extinct...
I think eventually the ainur, valar, or elves would continue there music and cleaning up the mess of the evil.
Or they might not and just leave ME to mankind.
Quote:
I always wondered what if Gandalf got one or all of the eagles then road them to Mount Doom with Frodo, descended and dropped the ring in the lava. That alwayed seemed alot easier to me.

The Eagles were Maiar, servants of ManwŽ, hence i think they weren't allowed to interfere directly in the quest to destroy the Ring. After the Ring got destroyed, is another story : then they were allowed to save Frodo and Sam.

Besides, i'm pretty sure the Eye of Sauron -without distraction- would notice one or all great Eagles approaching Mordor, hence Sauron would either send all of his NazgŻl, or go to Mt Doom himself, and pick up the Ring.

Quote:
What I had in mind was the possibility that all other alternatives had been excluded by a kind of survival instinct the Creator instilled in the universe, and a similar thing done by Eru.


That's also the essence of one of the "parallel universe" theories, now popular in kosmology : there are an infinite amount of parallel universes, but only one ultimately makes enduring life possible.
Huh; missed that one, will have to check it out, since cosmology is (another) hobby of mine. Makes since though, each reality coming into being then collapsing in on itself because unsustainable, leaving only one left. Begs the question of how stable our version is, and if there are better or worse ones still lingering/superceding (but I bet they cover that one, eh?)

Eagles are Maiar? Like, all of them, not just Thorondor and Gwaihir? Is this yet another reason I need to get all of HoME? And now that I think of it, what happened to Thorondor? If Ancalagon couldn't take him he seems pretty indestructible. I can buy Thorondor, or even Gwaihir, as a Maiar (though the question still remains of what became of the former, but maybe it's a Silm-->LorT name change again) but the whole species is asking too much. That's a lot of Maiar.
Landroval and Gwaihir are mentioned as Thorondor's sons in HOME, i think. Could also be in the index of the Sil.
We're only talking about the Great Eagles here as being Maiar, not all the Eagles.
OK, I'll buy that. My knowledge of HOME is limited to LT1&2 (unless we count UT also, but I've only read that once) so I can't speak to that. The index of the Silmarillion refers us to RotK, where Gwaihir and Landroval are called "descendants" of Thorondor. I no longer wish to take a position either way, though I will say "descendant" at least implies they're not in the immediate family. On the other hand, who ever heard of a talking eagle?
Quote:
On the other hand, who ever heard of a talking eagle?

I know at least one : Sam the American sea eagle, of the Muppet Show. Whether he's related to Thorondor as well, is unknown.
There were probably a pair of talking Eagles living in Narnia as well, but I can't guarantee this as Lewis didn't include an index in any of my copies of The Chronicles of Narnia, and I'm not about to waste my time manually searching the text.
I believe one of the bird judges in Alice in Wonderland, was an eagle.