Login | Register
 
Message Board | Latest Posts | Your Recent Posts | Rules

Thread: Famillies or not?

Is this discussion interesting? Share it on Twitter!

Bottom of Page    Message Board > The Green Dragon > Famillies or not?   
There were five Wizards, also called Istari, sent to Middle-Earth in the begining of the the Third Age (?). They were Gandalf the Grey, Sauruman the White, Radagast the Brown and two others I forgot their names. The two others do not appear in LotR, it is said they went to East and the South.
The Wizards were sent to Middle-Earth from Valinor. They are Maiar, Ainur of a lesser degree, they served the Valar. Sauron was also a Maiar though he came to Middle-Earth with Morgoth not with the Istari.
So regarding families...I would say that the Wizards are all of the same type of beings but not related as a family. Though in The Hobbit Gandalf does tells Beorn that Radagast is his cousin.
Big Smile Smilie thanx Sam, so they -emerged- as (sorta) adults, and didn't have a childhood.

Ok, thank-you.I wonder who the first hobbits were. And who the first of every race where?! Wink Smilie Big Smile Smilie Cool Smilie

once again, strange me Wink Smilie

Wiggle Smilie
The Elves appeared en masse, but the first leaders of Elves were Ingwe of the Vanyar, Finwe of the Noldor and Olwe and Elwe of the Teleri.

I know where they emerged and roughly when but I don't know who the first Men, Dwarves or Hobbits were. Any takers?
Dwarves were made by Aule the Valar. He made seven out of stone, because he was a smith. He made them because he was too impatient for the Children of Iluvatar (the Elves) to come. Eru punished him and made the Dwarves sleep until the Elves were on Middle-Earth. Then the Dwarves emerged.
Irena, don't worry about hanging! Your questions are good questions, I can only hope that my answers are clear and not too rambly... Wink Smilie
The elves were known as the 'firstborn' for a reason. They were the first race of ME to awaken. The way Tolkien describes this, I imagine there must have been a fair number. It would take more than three individuals to found a race (at the very least, they would need wives!).

Mankind also "awakened" under similar circumstances, but much later. Again, they must have started with a fair number.

Dwarves have already been explained by Master Samwise.

Hobbits: All we seem to know of their origins is that they were first recorded as living somewhere near Rohan. Tolkien describes them as being a 'branch' of the human race, but I dont think that he meant that literally. I suppose the first hobbits must have 'awakened' like the other races.

The first ents appear to have awakened at the same time as the elves.
Actually I don't think Hobbits sprung up like Man did. I think when Tolkien mentioned that Hobbits were a branch of Man, it was exactly that... a process of evolution. Kind of like the different types of Hobbits have slightly different physical attributes. After all, Tolkien has never explained the existence of Hobbits any other way and they are also known as Halflings, which pretty much means half a Man.

The Ents were in existence before the time of the Elves. That is why Treebeard is described as the oldest living thing, and not the Elves. However, it is the Elves that taught the Ents the spoken language, allowing them to communicate with them. Ents are not really a race technically. They are more like spirits that inhabit trees, thus giving them more than life, at the request of Yavanna who wanted trees to have guardians.
Quote:
The Ents were in existence before the time of the Elves.
As spirits I agree with you, Erkenbrand, but not as Ents.

From the Silmarillion
Quote:
When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared.
From this, I understand it to mean that at the same time as the elves awake, so shall the spirits enter the trees (olvar) and become Ents.

Interestingly, as well as entering the olvar, the spirits were also said to enter the Kelvar (animals). Yavanna's thoughts combined with Manwe's in this way created the Eagles, which could be the reference to the Kelvar in this passage. I cannot really think of any other sentient beasts right now that this passage could refer to, unless it is the likes of Huan the Wolfhound. It could mean Tom Bombadil, perhaps, but I don't think so.
Quote:
Interestingly, as well as entering the olvar, the spirits were also said to enter the Kelvar (animals). Yavanna's thoughts combined with Manwe's in this way created the Eagles, which could be the reference to the Kelvar in this passage. I cannot really think of any other sentient beasts right now that this passage could refer to, unless it is the likes of Huan the Wolfhound. It could mean Tom Bombadil, perhaps, but I don't think so.
How about maybe Beorn fitting into this mold? I know he only showed up as a skin-changer in 'The Hobbit', but as such is a protector of animals. However, even though there are men in the LotR called the Beornings who live between North-Central Mirkwood and the River Anduin, I don't really think they were related to Beorn. He may have been the leader around whom they coalesced into a mutual defensive militia against marauders from the Misty Mountains or Southern Mirkwood.
Quote:
How about maybe Beorn fitting into this mold?
Good one, Grondy. I knew there must be examples somewhere. Beorn and his ancestors would have fitted this catagory nicely.

Melkor originally made his werewolves and Fell creatures from spirits he had captured in the forests of Middle Earth. Maybe some of these were Yavanna's Kelvar/spirits too.
Remember also that at the time Tolkien wrote the Hobbit, he hardly knew that it would fit into his larger mythology. The same with the begining, the Tom Bombadil parts of LotR. But I like that idea Grondy. There are many unexplained characters in Tolkien's works (or atleast characters I haven't found explanations for Wink Smilie ) such as the ettins, who might fit into this category also.
Ettins? Which part of ME did they inhabit, Sam?
Are you referring to the trolls of the Ettenmoors, Sam?
Well I think I read somewhere about ettins, but can't remember where. I could be mistaken, I'll let you know if I find anything.