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42 gets a Cuddly Koala for her answer concerning Treebeard's toes. Big Smile Smilie Big Smile Smilie
Have now a complicated task:
Invertebrate life in Tolkien's world (part 1)
In what context do we meet a mention of:
* honeybees (two examples)
* midges
* butterflies
* snails
* ants
Gnampie: No, I don't think is was Aule with whom Melkor was trying to scare the Elves.

Eryan:

*honeybees: 1) At Beorn's home in 'The Hobbit'; 2) One of the beasties that the Knight Errant battled in the poem, 'Errantry' found in 'The Adventures of Tom Bombadil' of 'The Tolkien Reader'.

*midges: "What do they live on when the can't get hobbit?" asked Sam, scratching his neck. -- FOTR

*butterflies: 'black emperors' as seen by Bilbo above the treetops of Mirkwood in 'The Hobbit'.

*snails: What the thrush used to knock on the grey stone by the doorstep on Durin's Day in 'The Hobbit'.

*ants: ?

*flies: 1) On approach to 'Old Willow Man' in FOTR; 2) The ones referred to in 'The Hobbit' in Mirkwood, were the dwarves, which the spiders caught and hung out to dry. Big Smile Smilie

*Spiders: Mirkwood in 'The Hobbit'.

Let's see if anyone else can find some more.
Have just consulted the Natural History section of my Tolkien Encyclopedia. It mentions insects such as:

Dumbledoors - from the poem "Errantry". A ferocious breed of winged insect.

Flies of Mordor - They were grey brown and black and marked with a red eye on their backs. They were also bloodsucking and lived in swarms (uuugh).

Hummerhorns - another viscious winged insect that apparently attacked a knight in one of the hobbit poems. Either they were huge or the knight was small. It may have been hobbit humour.

Neekerbreekers - aka midges. There is an illustration resembling crickets

Spiders - I will leave that to Ungoliant

Wilwarin - forest inhabbiting butterflies. Elves found them delightful.

The ISBN for the book is: 1-85732-346-7

Hope this helps. No reference to ants, but I am sure Middle Earth would have had them.
Grondmaster and Alyssa, you are both great!
Have both plenty of Ice Swans!
Honeybees are mentioned (as a metaphor) in still one place - in "Unifinished tales"
Ants are also mentioned - as a metaphor only - in ROTK.
I leave it to you to find an exact context!
And there is yet another mollusk in the LOTR. Where?
Grondy, can I get a second chance?
The answer to your question about which Vala Melkor wants the Elves to be afraid of is Oromë (the hunter). I hope the spelling of the name is correct because I am reading the Dutch version.
Err...what exactly is a mollusc again? Smile Smilie
Mollusks are invertebrate animals - snails and such... and cephalopods... now I'm afraid my question is dreadfully easy! Smile Smilie
Twelve easy questions:

1. What do the elves call Gandalf?

2. Which of the following titles was not given to Aragorn by Faramir as he asks the people of Gondor if Aragorn should be made king?
A. Chieftain of the Dunedain of Arnor
B. Bearer of the Star of the North
C. The Elfstone
D. Wielder of the Flame of the West
E. Captain of the Host of the West

3. How many children does Elrond have with his wife Celebrian?

4. How Many Istari were sent to Middle-Earth?

5. How many days are there in one "yen" (the Quenya word for year)?

6. What is the age difference between the brothers Faramir and Boromir?

7. Where did the spirits come from who haunted the Barrow-downs?

8. Who was the first Thain of the Shire?
A. Balbo Baggins
B. Bucca of the Marish
C. Gerontius Took
D. Marmadoc Brandybuck
E. Fortinbras Took

9. What is the age difference between Frodo and Pippin?

10. Where was Glamdring forged?

11. The word "Orc" probably originated from Quenya "Urco", but what is "Orc" in the Black Speech?

12. The word "Orc" is "Orch" in Sindarin but what is it's plural form (in Sindarin of course)?


[Edited on 11/3/2002 by iago]
1)Mithrandir

I think Smile Smilie
Gnampie: It is never too late to give the right answer. And Oromë was the right one; so you get a Pseudo-Silmaril.
Thank you Grondy! I am very happy with my first Pseudo-Silmaril.

Maybe this is an easy question:

When Gandalf says: He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.
Who is he talking to?
What is the 'thing' to break?
To Iago's question:
Quote:
2. Which of the following titles was not given to Aragorn by Faramir as he asks the people of Gondor if Aragorn should be made king?


The answer is "D. Wielder of the Flame of the West". What Faramir actually said was, "wielder of the Sword Reforged". All the other four titles appear in my copy of ROTK.
Eryan posted on 7/3/2002 at 12:12
Quote:
And there is yet another mollusk in the LOTR. Where?
Quote:
'I am sure you have given me all the heaviest stuff,' said Frodo. 'I pity snails, and all that carry their homes on their backs.'

'I could take a lot more yet, sir. My packet is quite light,' said Sam stoutly and untruthfully.

'No, you don't, Sam!' said Pippin. 'It is good for him. He's got nothing except what he ordered us to pack. He's been slack lately, and he'll feel the weight less when he's walked off some of his own.'
From FOTR Book I, Chapter 3 entitled 'Three is Company', when Sam returned after leaving the key to Bag End with the Gaffer.

Big Smile Smilie
Eryan posted on 7/3/2002 at 12:12
Quote:
Ants are also mentioned - as a metaphor only - in ROTK.
I leave it to you to find an exact context!
Quote:
Suddenly from the Dike yells and screams, and the fierce battle-cries of men broke out. Flaming brands appeared over the brink and clustered thickly at the breach. Then they scattered and vanished. Men came galloping back over the field and up the ramp to the gate of the Hornburg. The rearguard of the Westfolders had been driven in.

'The enemy is at hand!' they said. 'We loosed every arrow that we had, and they filled the Dike with Orcs. But it will not halt them long. Already they are scaling the bank at many points, thick as marching ants. But we have taught them not to carry torches.'
From TTT, Book III, Chapter 7 entitled 'Helm's Deep' at the retreat from Helm's Dike. Cool Smilie
Quite right! Mithrandir and Wielder of the Flame of the West are the correct answers on question 1 and 2! (that leaves only ten questions unanswered Smile Smilie)
Grondy,
Well I never!
I didn't thought at all about THESE ants and THAT mollusk!
Have two Ice Swans (particularly fine ones !)
There is still one mollusk (in FOTR) and still one occasion on which ants are used as a metaphor (in ROTK).
And there remains still one occasion on which honeybees are used as a metaphor (in Narn i Hin Hurin in UF)...
To Iago's question:
Quote:
3. How many children does Elrond have with his wife Celebrian?
The answer is three: a daughter Arwen and two sons Elladan and Elrohir.
Hey Eryan,
I found the other place where ants are mentioned:

Busy as ants hurrying orcs were digging, digging lines of deep trenches
in a huge ring, just out of bowshot from the walls; and as the trenches were
made each was filled with fire, though how it was kindled or fed, by art or
devilry, none could see.

This is at the siege of Minas Tirith in ROTK .

Still looking for the mollusk.
[quote
3. How many children does Elrond have with his wife Celebrian?

* Allyssa kicks self for missing that one. Her favourite topic.

4. How Many Istari were sent to Middle-Earth?

7, White, Brown, Grey and three blues

5. How many days are there in one "yen" (the Quenya word for year)?

144 of our years = 1 yen, therefore52,560 days give or take


6. What is the age difference between the brothers Faramir and Boromir?

about 5 years?

7. Where did the spirits come from who haunted the Barrow-downs?

Have no idea. Angmar?

8. Who was the first Thain of the Shire?
A. Balbo Baggins
B. Bucca of the Marish
C. Gerontius Took
D. Marmadoc Brandybuck
E. Fortinbras Took


will leave that for someone else


9. What is the age difference between Frodo and Pippin?

ditto


10. Where was Glamdring forged?

Gondolin. For Turgon.

11. The word "Orc" probably originated from Quenya "Urco", but what is "Orc" in the Black Speech?

Orcs call themselves Uruks. Probably also a derivative of the elves name for them

12. The word "Orc" is "Orch" in Sindarin but what is it's plural form (in Sindarin of course)?

Yrch. Legolas uses it at the breaking of the fellowship
[Edited on 11/3/2002 by iago]



Did I get any of those right? Got any more Elrond / Celebrian / their children questions? love those! Big Smile Smilie
Ok here are the correct answers...

1. Mithrandir (easy)

2. D. Wielder of the Flame of the West (easy)

3. 3 (easy)

4. 5 (Radagast Brown, Gandalf Grey, Saruman White and two blue (sorry Allyssa Smile Smilie) (quite easy)

5. 52596 (You were so close, Allyssa, that I'll give you a right for that Smile Smilie (a bit difficult)

6. 5 (Allyssa was right) (kinda difficult)

7. Angmar (Allyssa was right again Smile Smilie) (dunno how difficult)

8. B. Bucca of the Marish (easy)

9. 22 years (not difficult nor easy)

10. Gondolin (right again Allyssa) (really easy)

11. Uruk (right again Allyssa!) (really really easy)

12. Yrch (Allyssa's going strong) (easy if you know it Smile Smilie)

And the winner is Allyssa! (Ithink...) Smile Smilie
[Edited on 14/3/2002 by iago]
Eryan,
I think I found your other mollusk too:

They had reached the Mountain's foot on its northern side, and a little
to the westward; there its long grey slopes, though broken, were not sheer. Frodo did not speak, and so Sam struggled on as best he could, having no guidance but the will to climb as high as might be before his strength gave out and his will broke. On he toiled, up and up, turning this way and that to lessen the slope, often stumbling forward, and at the last crawling like a snail with a heavy burden on its back. When his will could drive him no further, and his limbs gave way, he stopped and laid his master gently down.

Also from ROTK
Good going gang, I hope these were Eryan's ant and mollusk, as I'm tired of looking for any more. Cool Smilie

Okay Eryan and everyone, now find the beetles (one known occurance).

Odd man out: Laiquendi, Moriquendi, Nandor, Sindar, Vanyar.
[Edited on 15/3/2002 by Grondmaster]
About time I answered one again, the answers Vanyar Grond, cos they're the only ones that got to Valinor from that list.
Another one...
Odd man out: Maedhros, Maglor, Celegorm, Caranthir, Curufin, Amrod, Amras
The Plastic Squirrel gets a Pseudo-Silmaril for Vanyar. Smile Smilie

Iago: Does your odd man out have anything to do with how they died? Wink Smilie[Edited on 16/3/2002 by Grondmaster]
Well... in a way... maybe something with time... (doh... that was a give-away... Smile Smilie)
They were all Fëanor's sons. Celegorm, Caranthir, Curufin, Amrod, Amras died in battle; later Maedhros died in a fiery chasm with the second Silmaril; and Maglor threw his, the third Silmaril, "into the Sea, and thereafter he wandered ever upon the shores, singing in pain and regret beside the waves". (I believe the first Silmaril resides with Eärendil as he sails the starry sky.) Thus the answer is Maglor, for he alone of Fëanor's sons, entered the Second Age of Middle Earth.

Unless, if the Second Age started directly with no transition from the First at the downfall of Morgoth, then Maedhros was alive in the Second Age, so then the answer would still be Maglor because we know not if he ever died. Of course if the Second Age didn't actually start until the founding of the Grey Havens, then the answer remains Maglor, the only son of Fëanor to survive into the Second Age of Middle Earth.

Sorry for the convoluted thinking, 'The Silmarillion' isn't my strong point. Smile Smilie
Here are a few new questions, from the harder section of my book;

1. After which event did the war of Sauron and the elves begin?

2. What was Sauron's opening move in this war?

3. Who was the father of Feanor? what was his fate?

4. What type of stones did the 3 elven rings hold?

5. Who was against the appointment of Saruman as the head of the White Council?

6. What was the Kin-slaying? who was involved?

7. Among the Maiar, who were the best known to the Children of Iluvatar?

8. What was the seedling of Celeborn in Numenor called?

9. What was Morgoth's real name? What does Morgoth mean? Who gave him this name?

10. Who was the wisest of the Maiar, and what did he learn from Nienna?

Enjoy! Ten cuddly koalas to be won.
Big Smile Smilie
That was far more extensive an answer than I had expected but your right on everything! Smile Smilie
I think that deserves a pseudo-silms for sure Smile Smilie
1. After which event did the war of Sauron and the elves begin?
When Morgoth fell and Sauron assumed the throne he built up Mordor and at the same time he came to the elves as Annatar, the Lord of Gifts. He taught the elves in how to forge rings but always made sure that he'd be able to forge a ring that could control the rings of the elves. However the elves became aware of that he tried to control their rings with the one and took their's off. Enraged by this he unleashed his hordes of orcs upon the Elves.

2. What was Sauron's opening move in this war?
The forging of the one ring.

3. Who was the father of Feanor? what was his fate?
Finwë, the first High King of the Noldor. He was the first to be slain in Valinor
and (of course) it was Morgoth who did it.

4. What type of stones did the 3 elven rings hold?
Narya (Fire) also known as the Ring of Fire or the Red Ring, was set with a ruby and borne by Círdan orginally but he gave it to Gandalf.
Nenya (Water) also known as the Ring of Adamant or the White Ring, also called chief of the Three, was set with an adamant and borne by Galadriel.
Vilya (Air) also known as the Ring of Sapphire or the Ring of Air, also called mightiest of the Three, was set with a sapphire and borne by Elrond.

5. Who was against the appointment of Saruman as the head of the White Council?
Elrond and Galadriel wanted Gandalf to lead the White Council.

6. What was the Kin-slaying? who was involved?
Noldors attack on the Teleri to get the ships to cross Belegaer.

7. Among the Maiar, who were the best known to the Children of Iluvatar?
Sauron? Melian? Olórin? Curunír?

8. What was the seedling of Celeborn in Numenor called?
Nimloth

9. What was Morgoth's real name? What does Morgoth mean? Who gave him this name?
Melkor was given the name Morgoth, "Black Enemy" by Fëanor.

10. Who was the wisest of the Maiar, and what did he learn from Nienna?
Don't know this one but I do know that Gandalf was wise and that he learnt a lot from her.

[Edited on 17/3/2002 by iago]
Among the Maiar, who were the best known to the Children of Iluvatar?

I didn't really know what you meant with this one so... Smile Smilie
I mean "the best known" can be both negative and positive, no? So the obvious answer then would be Sauron... however you might have meant it in a positive way and then it would probably be Gandalf, Olórin or (least plausible) Curunír, Saruman...
Quote:
1.
...he unleashed his hordes of orcs upon the Elves.

2The forging of the one ring.


The answers I was looking for, but in a slightly different order. Does anyone remember the exact first military move made by Sauron?

3. Finwë, the first High King of the Noldor. He was the first to be slain in Valinor
and (of course) it was Morgoth who did it.

Correct

4. Narya (Fire) also known as the Ring of Fire or the Red Ring, was set with a ruby and borne by Círdan orginally but he gave it to Gandalf.
Nenya (Water) also known as the Ring of Adamant or the White Ring, also called chief of the Three, was set with an adamantand borne by Galadriel.
Vilya (Air) also known as the Ring of Sapphire or the Ring of Air, also called mightiest of the Three, was set with a sapphire and borne by Elrond
.
correct

5. Elrond and Galadriel
Was one of them was particularly oposed?

6. Noldors attack on the Telerito get the ships to cross Belegaer.

can anyone be more specific? This could be a good topic for discussion.


7. ?
Answer in the Sil

8. Nimloth
correct

9.
Melkor was given the name Morgoth, "Black Enemy"by Fëanor.
correct

10.
Don't know this one but I do know that Gandalf was wise and that he learnt a lot from her.

partially answered. Anyone?


I think that is about 6 cuddly Koalas for iago. Some questions still unanswered.
Hello everybody
I was absent during a few days...
Gnampie - have 2 Ice Swans for your ant and your mollusk!
But they are NOT the ant and the mollusk I thought about!
Grondy - I am sorry!!!
Should I tell what I meant or to give everybody still one chance to find MY ant and MY mollusk? Smile Smilie
Eryan: Let us see if we can find any more ants and mollusks. Have you found the reference to beetles yet? Big Smile Smilie

Everyone: I think it would work better and be longer lasting if you would post fewer questions at any one time. And when answering those long lists, it would be better if you only answer one or two a day and leave some for others to also show their knowledge. Cool Smilie
Ok... here's a single question for anyone to answer Wink Smilie

Who had the surname which meant: 'Master of Doom'?
Quote:
When Gandalf said: He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has lost the path of wisdom.

Who is Gandalf speaking to?
What is 'the thing' the other wants to break?
Sorry Gnampie, I knew Gandalf was speaking to Saruman, the no longer white, just prior to his imprisonment on the pinnacle of Orthanc; however, I was leaving it for someone else to answer, and then forgot to go back and ensure they did.
Quote:
' "...I am Saruman, the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!"
'I looked then and saw that his robes, which had seemed white, were not so, but were woven of all colours, and if he moved they shimmered and changed hue so that the eye was bewildered.
' "I liked white better," I said.
' "White!" he sneered. "It serves as a beginning. White cloth may be dyed. The white page can be overwritten; and the white light can be broken."
' "In which case it is no longer white," said I. "And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
From 'The Fellowship of the Ring', Book II, about half-way through Chapter 2 entitled 'The Council of Elrond'.
I'm still looking for Iago's "Master of Doom" and Eryan's other ant and mollusk references. Sad Smilie

Meanwhile: What did Melkor command the Orcs to do with the dead of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad?
Hey, did anyone find the answer to my question yet? Or is it to obvious? Let me know if it is.

To refresh your minds, here's the question again:
When Gandalf sais: He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has lost the path of wisdom.

Who is Gandalf speaking to?
What is 'the thing' the other wants to break?
Quote:
Who had the surname which meant: 'Master of Doom'?


Turin Turambar?
Allyssa: Quite right! Do you remember why he called himself that?
Another question:

The famous battle of Fornost didn't actually take place at Fornost itself, where did it in fact take place?
Yes, that was the aswer Grondy.
Was it too easy?
Anyway, I really like that part.

[Edited on 3/4/2002 by gnampie]
Gnampie: It was only too easy for me because I have the BBC Radio version of LOTR almost etched in my memory and thus usually know about where to look for things in the book.

However, when it comes to finding obscure things like ants, mollusks, and beetles, I must scan the pages with my eyes, as these words are such small details that they have never registered. Like for instance the rhetorical question (for which no answer is desired or expected): How many times did Tolkien use the word "blue" in 'The Hobbit'? Nobody should be expected to know the answer to that, it is irrelevant to the story, and without already having the manuscript entered into a word processor, such that a word search could be used, too much effort would be required to find the meaningless answer.
the answer is zero. he never uses the word blue..........










Hey... I'm colorblind
There was a "blue hat", "into the Blue", a pair of "blue hoods", and a "sky-blue one" and that only covers the first 10 pages of The Hobbit so, you must indeed be colorblind. However, it was only a rhetorical question so who cares how many blues he used. Smile Smilie

Battle of Fornost took place on the plain north of the Brandywine, about half-way between Lake Nenuial and Fornost (Norbury). At the end of the battle the Witch-King of Angmar ran away from Glorifindal and was seen no more in the North until he came searching for Frodo's ring as the Chief Ringwraith in LOTR. Cool Smilie
Quite right! Smile Smilie
I'm still looking for Eryan's other ant and mollusk references in LOTR. Sad Smilie

Meanwhile:
Quote:
What did Melkor command the Orcs to do with the dead of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad?
My question of 02 APR 2002 remains unanswered.
Grondy, I know what other ant and mollusc Eryan meant.
I didn't found it myself but a friend of mine helped me out. So I don't think I should take the credit for it.
I can give you some hints if you like.
For the ant you have to look in ROTK on the first pages of one of the chapters.
The mollusc should be found in FOTR. It is not literally mentioned that it is a mollusc, but according to the description it could be a mollusc. I am not entirely conviced it is, but again I am still learning to understand Tolkien's world.
Well I cannot check it now... but did he not order to put them all in a mound together with their swords?
Then Rian wife of Huor came there and laid herself down on that mound and died...
And in the "Unfinished Tales" it is also told how Morgoth took Hurin there (after he was taken captive) and how he broke a sword before his face so that its splinter wounded Hurin's face - but Hurin did not flinch and kept to defy him...
I hope that's it!
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