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Thread: How to say Namárië

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Copied some post from a dicussion to a this thread, since it had nothing to do where we started it.

Amarië posted Friday 31st December 2004
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Namarie,
Rhapsody
(hey that rimes!)

*Gasp!* Does this mean you have been calling Amaree all this time? I am shocked! Young lady, I banish you to the LOTR appendix untill you have learned to pronounce the e-s at the ending of elven words. Deal Smilie Shouldn't take long, you should be done in good time before the fireworks.


(...)

Rhapsody posted Saturday 1st January 2005
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Namárië
Nah-MAR-ee-ay

Rhap-so-dy, if you are a Southerner or an Aussie/Kiwi I can imagine it becomes Rhap-so-day.

So your case being?


Amarië posted Saturday 1st January 2005
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My case is that you are wrong. ë or e is not pronouced ay. It is like a regular e like for example a German would say it, or a Norwegian like me. Appendix E explains how to say e. I am sure the Dutch version does too.

Rhapso-day is fun to say though. Smile Smilie


Virumor posted Saturday 1st January 2005
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Quote:
Namárië
Nah-MAR-ee-ay

Well Cate Blanchett in FOTR didn't pronounce it the "ay" way but use the "e" of the German Theobald, as explained in the Appendices. Not sure if the movies are the best source for learning Elvish, but anyway, let's trust someone with pointy ears.

And to stay on topic : welcome to the greenhorns.


Rhapsody posted Saturday 1st January 2005
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APPENDIX E WRITING AND SPELLING
I PRONUNCIATION OF WORDS AND NAMES

VOWELS
For vowels the letters i, e, a, o, u are used, and (in Sindarin only) y. As far as can be determined the sounds represented by these letters (other than y) were of normal kind, though doubtless many local varieties escape detection.

STRESS
The position of the 'accent' or stress is not marked, since in the Eldarin languages concerned its place is determined by the form of the word. In words of two syllables it falls in practically all cases on the first syllable. In longer words it falls on the last syllable but one, where that contains a long vowel, a diphthong, or a vowel followed by two (or more) consonants. Where the last syllable but one contains (as often) a short vowel followed by only one (or no) consonant, the stress falls on the syllable before it, the third from the end. Words of the last form are favoured in the Eldarin languages, especially Quenya.
In the following examples the stressed vowel is marked by a capital letter: isIldur, Orome, erEssëa, fËanor, ancAlima, elentÁri; dEnethor, periAnnath, ecthElion, pelArgir, silIvren. Words of the type elentÁri 'star-queen' seldom occur in Quenya where the vowel is é, á, ó, unless (as in this case) they are compounds; they are commoner with the vowels í, ú, as and Úne 'sunset, west'. They do not occur in Sindarin except in compounds. Note that Sindarin dh, th, ch are single consonants and represent single letters in the original scripts.

It says nowhere how Namarie is pronounced in that appendix. But I did found the following:
namárië. In Dutch it would be said as ie... the Dutch variant of Rhapsody ends on an ie...

No I don't have a Dutch edition of LOTR nearby.


Virumor posted Saturday 1st January 2005
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I thought Quenya should be pronounced as Latin or something. I'm sure it's mentioned somewhere in the appendices that "e" should be pronounced as in "Theobald" but i can't check it right now, sorry.

I also think that it is mentioned somewhere in the appendices that each letter should be pronounced separately, so the Dutch 'ie' would not be possible. For instance : Galadriel.

I'm no expert on Elvish languages, anyway. Peredhil should be able to enlighten us on this subject, but he has long gone unfortunately.


Rhapsody posted Saturday 1st January 2005
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Nopes, me either, but being directed to the appendices and reading something like that confuses the hell out of me.. I am not a linguistic although playing with words aka writing is something I love.



Amarië posted Saturday 1st January 2005
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Hmmm, I thought there would be word examples in the English version. In the Norwegian version the section about vowels says after ....though doubtless many local varieties escape detection.:
"That means that the sounds were approximatly the same as we would find in Norwegian fin, ser, ja, nok, bukk, no matter the vowel length." Then later it says that e in the end of words is never silent.

And since Vir mentioned Pere (miss him!!!!), he used Fauskangers Quenya course as base for his classes. To quote lesson a from that course:

Quote:
Short e may be pronounced as in English end. In Quenya this sound also occurs in final position. Since word-final e is usually silent in English orthography, Tolkien often used the spelling ë in this position – and throughout this course, this spelling is employed consistently. This is only to remind English readers that in Quenya, this letter is to be distinctly pronounced. But since word-final e never occurs in spoken English, some speakers tend to substitute i or ey (following English practice in the rare cases of a final orthographic "e" being sounded, as when Jesse is pronounced "jessi", or karate is pronounced "karatey"). Quenya e should have the value described above in all positions. It must NOT be pronounced i, nor must there be a y-like sound creeping after it: lómë "night", morë "black", tinwë "sparkle".


Edited (or Virumored Wink Smilie ) by myself to include links to the Ardalambion and the Quenya course.


Rhapsody posted Saturday 2nd January 2005
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I found it! The Dutch editition. It says: Al deze tweeklanken (including ie) waren 'verminderde' tweeklanken, d.w.z. met de klemtoon op het eerste element en samengesteld uit de versmolten eenvoudige klinkers. Zo is het de bedoeling dat ai,ei, oi. ui. respectievelijk worden uitgesproken als de klinkers in het Nederlands.

It basically says that Namarie should be prononounced, in our tongue as 'ie', the same would happen with when you say Rhapsody in Dutch.

*closes big book*
Since I don't speak Dutch I have to guess what the text might say, I am guessing tweeklank means diphthong? And ie is not a diphthong in Quenya or in Sindarin, so it shouldn't be pronounced like one either, there for ie is pronounced like an i and an e, not like Dutch ie.

To quote Fauskanger again since I noticed that he mentiones Cate Blanchetts pronounciations too, like Vir did.
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(Immediately after the line in which she mangles the name Eärendil, Cate Blanchett pronounces the Quenya word namárië, "farewell". I'm glad to say that she did a better job with this word, getting the -ië more or less right!)

Looks like this is one of the rare cases we can trust what the movie is telling us. Super Scared Smilie
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And ie is not a diphthong in Quenya or in Sindarin, so it shouldn't be pronounced like one either, there for ie is pronounced like an i and an e, not like Dutch ie.


It says that it is a lesser dipthong (somehow I think it is about a fish) and should not be treated as such, in that case the words ie in Namarie should be spoken as the normal Dutch ie (because it says in Dutch that it should not be treated as a dipthong) which is i and e and is pronounced as ie as in eum... the ie in shriek.. Because not treating it as a dipthong lengthens the pronounciation. If it is a dipthong then the e is soft and hardly heard. I am so not cut out for this. Anyway the basic line: in Dutch it is Namarie pronounced as Namarie and not Namareh...
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I am so not cut out for this.

Lol, I hear you. I am totally confused about Dutch sounds and letters now., my brain can't cope. Tongue Smilie

Ignoring the stress (since we agree on that):
When I say namárië I say:
i as the i in still
e like the e in end
Namár-ee-eh (just about)

Are you still on Namár-ee-ay? Because ie in shriek sounds like ee to me, but it all depends how you say it I guess. Confuuuuuusiiiiiiiiing! *leaves to eat icecream instead*
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Lol, I hear you. I am totally confused about Dutch sounds and letters now., my brain can't cope.

Ignoring the stress (since we agree on that):
When I say namárië I say:
i as the i in still
e like the e in end
Namár-ee-eh (just about)


So the difference between your and mine language is how you pronounce the i. Here is is never ever absolutely pronounced as ee. So there we have it. If you say shriek you pronounce clearly the I right? And slighlty the e.... there you have it when the Dutch say Namarie. Funnilly enough on the Elf Fantasy Fair there was a Dutch woman saying Namarie as Na-mah-rie (maybe it helps when you think of the ending Marie). Maybe you and I should hit the pub and talk to each other Wink Smilie

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Are you still on Namár-ee-ay? Because ie in shriek sounds like ee to me, but it all depends how you say it I guess.


Nah I was never on Namár-ee-ay, just joking on that one. I was serious on Na-mah-riiiie though.

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Confuuuuuusiiiiiiiiing! *leaves to eat icecream instead*


I got Ben & Jerry's... want some?
Na-mah-riiiie. Yes, I think I can live with that. Ahhh we have spent three days on what could have been sorted in a less than a minute if we had met in person. Computers really make our lives more efficient, don't you think?
So basically we should pronounce "Namarië" like Cate Blanchett does in FOTR.

For once we can learn something from the movies!

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Computers really make our lives more efficient, don't you think?

Well i could make a wav-file of Galadriel saying "Namarië" and send it to anyone who wants to know how it should be pronounced. Then we could use that pronunciation as a standard.

now that'z sorted how do you say my last name Lossëhelin or what my friends call me Lossë hehehehe
I'd pronounce it to rhyme with 'Bossy Helen'; though it is probably closer to "loss-say-hell-in". Of course I know nothink, so I'm probably wrong. Elf Sticking Tounge Out Smilie
I admit I took only a cursory glance at the Quenya course; I'm not linguistically oriented, and I'm afraid it was too much for me, at least without intensive study. However, from that and the appendices it seems like the pronunciation would be closer to "los-seh-hel-in." Though, as I said, I really don't know WTF I'm talking about, and should probably be ignored. I'm really only chiming in in support of Virumors idea of a Namarie.wav if only for monoglots like me. Wink Smilie
Bossy Helen? Nah, not so sure about that one. Wink Smilie
Losseh-helin perhaps? I don't quite remember where the stress should be, but that sounds about right.. In Norwegian it would be lossehelín. It is very hard to use English to explain elven pronounciation.

Hélin more than hellin at least... .wav anyone? :P
Thank you!!!!! i would have that the ë would be like 'ee', maybe there could be the stress?????
That would do it, I believe. One of the few things I actually remember is that Tolkien used diaresis in Quenya not to designate a long vowel but to make clear the noun WAS pronounced, neither a dipthong or the English "silent" e.
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i would have that the ë would be like 'ee',

*Gasp!* Shame on you!! My poor name! Your poor name! Very Sad Smilie Elf Sticking Tounge Out Smilie

ë or e like in Emma, not like e-bay.
i like in indian, not ice

But I've been thinking the stress is on the e too. Amarië has four syllables too (hope that is the right word), I think we agreed that it would be a-mar-i-e. So loss-e-he-lin should be right. Perhaps.
that what i'd have thought anyway, no offence to your name, that name is beautiful Elf With a Big Grin Smilie

oh and i like my name too thank you Elf With a Big Grin Smilie
From the appendix of the Silmarillion: "IE should not be pronounced as in English piece, but with both the vowels i and e sounded, and run together; thus, Ni-enna, not 'Neena'."

Also, on how "i" and "e" are supposed to be pronounced; this is from Appendix E, continuing where the original quote above was left off: "That is, the sounds were approximately represented by i, e, a, o, u in English machine, were, father, for, brute irrespective of quantity."

This should give Namarië: "Nah - mahr - ee -eh" with the stress on the second syllable.
That's actually the first, and for long the ONLY thing I remembered about pronunciation. I mean, who doesn't wince they hear someone say, "oooo, I LOVE Tol-keen!" ;-p
Yes, we agreed on how to say Amarië/Namarië over a year ago. We were talking about Lossëhelin now, but we seem to have agreed on that too. But a few quotes from the Sil can't hurt. The fewer Lossihellens and Ammarees we hear, the better. Wink Smilie

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I mean, who doesn't wince they hear someone say, "oooo, I LOVE Tol-keen!" ;-p

Hehehe, well at least he knew the elves would say it right.
Well we can safely say 'there's only one Amarië!!!!!' and no other Lossë either, but i prefer my name to sound 'Loss-eh-helin'
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I mean, who doesn't wince they hear someone say, "oooo, I LOVE Tol-keen!" ;-p


Tolkien writes in Letter 347, commenting about how the man receiving his letter signs his last name "Jeffery" and not "Jeffrey" even though the latter is how it was listed in the university's Residents List: "I am nearly always written to as Tolkein (not by you): I do not know why, since it is pronounced by me always: keen."

I'm glad you weren't around to listen to the author say his own name.

The note which says that "ie" is not pronounced like "piece" but as two separately sounded vowels, applies to the Elvish languages, and not to his name. Tolkien apparently notes that the "ie" in his name is clear indication that it should be pronounced TOL-keen, or perhaps TOHL-keen. This is also recorded elsewhere, not by the author, such as at the link below:

http://www.bartleby.com/59/6/tolkienjrr.html
How annoyingly inconsistent. I mean, I know how it SHOULD be pronounced in English, but I also know names aren't always pronounced as they should be, ESPECIALLY by their bearers. And I generally hear the Professors name prounounced as the Appenices would indicate, probably because of them. Ah, well, now I know; thanks.
True, it IS tol-keen. I keep forgetting since I would say tolk-i-en in Norwegian, but when I say it in English, it does sound more like.. I think Tolkeen, it's not like I speak English on a dayly basis. I just type and read. :P
I do not understand what all the fuzz is about. I just pronounce it like it's written, just like with Bloemfontein, Windhoek and Walvisbaai. In Dutch/Afrikaans.

Now, did anyone notice the "JRR Toykien's" gag in the Simpsons, when Bart & Milhouse got lost in the toystore and were assailed by tigers? I think not.
The "y" in "day" becomes "i" when you add the adverb ending "ly." Ya funny talkin' furriner. ;-p

And I'm a little insulted, Virumor. My two great loves combined, and you think I didn't notice?
Thought 'dayly' looked a bit odd, but I didn't bother to do anything about it. I'll try to get it right the next time. Wink Smilie
Just to point out, in the UK, it's spelt Daily, but pronounced the same Elf With a Big Grin Smilie
In the USA we only spell it "Daily" when it is used in a title, such as our newspaper the The Daily Wrap,* else it is spelled "daily". Elf With a Big Grin Smilie



*the newspaper of choice at our fresh fish markets as well as our higher end fish and chip joints.
Silly Grondy ;-p. Though I will note for the record that Long John Silver's likes to pack their fish (and accompanying Freedom Fries Rolling Eyes Smilie ) in cardboard, not that different from newsprint. But newsprint, as everyone knows, is for wrapping BABIES, silly.
ive never came across that Grondy, ive seen the newspapers just never anything else?
I eat three meals daily? Take two tablets three times daily. "Daily" here means per day: Oh shoot! I found another place to capitalize "daily".

What's this topic about anyway?
You guys, and ladies, have great senses of humor. I'm trying hard not to laugh and wake someone up.
I believe you were talking about the correct pronunciation of Tolkien's name.
I thought some of you were writing funny, not haha funny, but hmm funny, or fishy funny.
"Funny" is an adjective, not adverb, FYI. ;-p I believe the thread was originally about pronouncing "Namarie" but that that has been adequately established, and even that Cate Blanchett pronounced it right in the films. So we moved on to other things, some of them relatively silly. Or sillie. Possibly silley, but I think that's just a typo of "smiley."
yes funny, but funny could be not funny but completely innocent, if something put is serious, Orc Going Huh Smilie

Grondy, do you find it wierd to put Daily using all contexts? i dont its funny how different cultures are well.....different, not saying that our cultures as in country cultures different, as in culture of words Orc Going Huh Smilie
I can't speak for Grondy, but the only culture I have is growing on my shorts. ;-p
Yes, I was having fun, but wasn't meaning to put anyone down; I apologize to anyone who took it wrongly. Some of us spell words the way we hear them, some of us spell them the way we were taught, and some of us just sprinkle some letters on the paper/screen and stir them with a stick enough that others can guess what words we were meaning to spell. Sometimes there are typos caused by hitting an adjacent key and some times there are alternate spellings due to regional differences such as the great colour/color controversy. What you will normally find when we point out misspellings is not condemnation, but ridicule of ourselves and the state of human civilization in a good natured way, with tongue in cheek.
Well said, Grondy.

Now, let's all go back discussing Tolkein's works.