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There is always questions asked as to where creatures like Ungolinat, Bombadil and the Watcher in the water came from. I now believe i may have the answer though not entirely sure.
When Melko's (proper name before he decended into Ea) music changed into discord and rose up to challenge Erus assigned theme it created some 'twisted parts' which were not intented by either Melko or eru. These parts therefore became present as abnormalities in arda as it was the music of the Ainur along with the flame imperishable that made Ea up. These were present therefore as creatures that arose before even the Ainur decended into arda and are part of arda itself.
Now when Melkor was set free from being chained in the halls of Mandos he had to Gain the allegiance with Ungoliant as she was not one of his servants.
Tom bombadil says to frodo that he was in Arda before the dark lord came from outside. As melko was the first of the Ainur to decend it follows that TB was there before them all.
This theory also applies to the strange creatures which gnawed away at the tunnels deep under Moria where Gandalf has to follow the Balrog of Morgoth. He says later to Aragorn that Sauron knows not of these creatures for they are older than he. Therefore these likely are also abnormalities in the music of the Ainur.
May interest some.
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When Melko's (proper name before he decended into Ea) music changed into discord and rose up to challenge Erus assigned theme it created some 'twisted parts' which were not intented by either Melko or eru.

Everything was intended by Eru.

Take this quote from the AinulindalŽ :
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And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.


About Ungoliant and Co, I figure they are independent Ainur who alleged neither to the Valar, neither to Melkor, but remained independent and did what they themselves prefered without answering to anyone.
Yup, Mir, that is what I was going to say too. Though in a more complicated way. There is nothing abnormal in the Music, Eru changed it once to give Melkor a chance to change his mind, and then changed again it to show Melkor who's the Boss. And that is the Music which created the universe.

The Ainur all added things to the Music without really knowing what they added, each of them could only see a small piece of the song. Only Eru knows what creatures and places the Music would give life to. There is nothing there which Eru didn't intend or wasn't aware about.
There is no sure way of nknowing how or what these cretaures are but this is my theory. Even if they were intended by Eru they were abnormalities within arda, as they arose from the discord of Melkor.
The theory that Tom bombadil was Tolkien himself or eru himself think are absurd so i suppose he could be one of the Ainur. But Tolkien himself says that TB is an enigma, so why not say he was an Ainur if it was so obvious? And enigmas must come from somewhere so to me this seems the most likely source.
I understand (I think) what Lord of All is saying and I do, in part, agree that it is plausible.

Eru created everything but what is the point of asking the Ainur to contribute to the theme if the history of the world was already decided. We know that some things were kept from the Ainur when Eru showed them the vision of the World and maybe this is why. Maybe Eru didn't want to know everything that would happen even though he did. (???) There is a difference, however slight, between knowing and being aware of. Maybe Eru wanted some surprises and allowed Melkor's meddling to bear fruit. This doesn't mean that Melkor changed the theme, only that he was allowed to but Eru's face showed a progressive anger - he went from smiling to stern to terrible to behold. If he was aware of everything that was and would happen surely he would fully expect everything that Melkor did?

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But now Illuvatar sat and hearkened, and for a great while it seemed good to him, for in the music there were no flaws. But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Iluvatar...


After that Iluvatar and Melkor struggled against each other's music. At first Iluvatar seemed almost condescending and he smiled as he started another theme. Melkor caused more discord, and Iluvatar became stern, then after more discord he became terrible to behold and after that the music ceased.

I think it possible that Iluvatar knew that there would be discord and that Melkor would be the instigator of it. The extent of the discord, however, may have been a bit of a surprise to Iluvatar otherwise why would he get so angry about it unless it was contrary to the original theme. Iluvatar used Melkor's discord and absorbed it into the theme and it may have been the catalyst for all the battles and wars which would shape the races of Middle-earth. I mean, what on earth is the point of creating something like Arda, using all the powers of the Ainur just to have something play out with no excitement, spontaneity or surprise?

In Letters Tolkien says:

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The Ainur took part in the making of the world as 'sub-creators' in various degrees, after this fashion. They interpreted according to their powers, and completed in detail, the Design propounded to them by the One.


It's like getting a team together to develop new software. The Boss knows the design and knows the skills of his workforce so he allows them to input their own ideas. There is always the one looney, of course, who sticks a little bug in somewhere. But if Iluvatar knew his workforce, he knew what to expect even if he was not (or chose not to be) fully aware of what that would be.

As for all the other creatures - nothing was given life unless it was by Iluvatar so it is likely that all those dark creatures were Maiar who came to the world at the same time as the Valar, apart from Bombadil who was an enigma and maybe even Tolkien was not aware of what he was.



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Even if they were intended by Eru they were abnormalities within arda, as they arose from the discord of Melkor.

If the 'strange creatures' are Maiar, then they arose from Ilķvatar's mind and descended into Arda before, with or after the Valar but stayed independent from both them and Melkor (this is the case with Ungolianth).

Melkor's discord in the Music didn't suddenly trigger their existence. Melkor could not create living beings; he could only take existing forms and deform them according to his will : this is how he created Orcs, for instance (Dragons, Balrogs, etc. are Maiar allied to him).

This leads to the second possibility for the 'strange creatures' (like the creatures that delved tunnels deep under the Mines of Moria, and/or the Watcher in the Water) : they could be animals mutated/deformed by the malice that spread from Melkor's fortress of Utumno :
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Now Melkor began the delving and building of a vast fortress, deep under Earth, beneath dark mountains where the beams of Illuin were cold and dim. That stronghold was named Utumno. And though the Valar knew naught of it as yet, nonetheless the evil of Melkor and the blight of his hatred flowed out thence, and the Spring of Arda was marred. Green things fell sick and rotted, and rivers were choked with weeds and slime, and fens were made, rank and poisonous, the breeding place of flies; and forests grew dark and perilous, the haunts of fear; and beasts became monsters of horn and ivory and dyed the earth with blood.
Exactly, Mir. I always understood from Tolkien that these creatures were different kinds of beasts that had been warped by the influence of evil. I did not understand dragons as Maiar, but as some kind of creature that had been twisted by Morgoth. As well, the Watcher, the fell beasts, the steeds of the Nazgul, etc. were (according to my understanding) on the level of animals--some very large and powerful, some intelligent, but still only creatures of Arda. I thought that Tolkien had deliberately peopled his world with such beings. After all, ME is not your usual place, is it?
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I thought that Tolkien had deliberately peopled his world with such beings


Not only Tolkien, apparently, Eru intended this too.
Exactly, Cloveress, Eru allowed such creatures to dwell on ME, just like he allowed Melkor to have his own music, although it was not in harmony with Eru's music.
He allowed such creatures to dwell in arda but did he intend them from the very beginning of time, perhaps before the Ainur were created and he first thought of the idear of a theme of music.
Well, actually, if they were only on the level of animals (which would not really be true for the Nazgul), then they would have been made in the Great Music of the Ainur. In other words, it would've been the Valar and Melkor who created them, just like they created the mountains and oceans and everything.
Nothing was created in the Music of the Ainur. The Music merely generated a vision, that the Valar needed to fulfill. It was merely a model they had to strife for.

Animals were created by Eru, although it is not mentioned explicitly; though as no Vala can create living beings, it must be Eru (even though Yavanna did create the seeds of all plants, and plants are living beings, albeit not like animals and the Children of Ilķvatar).
So Yavanna did not create the ents? She did, and they are more like animals than plants.
though you are correct in saying that Melkor could not create beings, but the strange discord which spread up to challenge Erus theme did. His own music on its own could not have but with the Eru theme mixed in it did.
These creatures need not nessersarily be Ainur, they have no origins hence they are pure enigmas.
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So Yavanna did not create the ents? She did, and they are more like animals than plants.

She did not. Only on Yavanna's bidding, Eru sent spirits to Arda who became the Shepherds of the Trees. And the race of Ents are certainly not animals. They're Maiar.

From the Sil:
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Then Manwл awoke, and he went down to Yavanna upon Ezellohar, and he sat beside her beneath the Two Trees. And Manwл said: 'O Kementšri, Eru hath spoken, saying: "Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared. For a time: while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young." But dost them not now remember, Kementšri, that thy thought sang not always alone? Did not thy thought and mine meet also, so that we took wing together like great birds that soar above the clouds? That also shall come to be by the heed of Ilъvatar, and before the Children awake there shall go forth with wings like the wind the Eagles of the Lords of the West.'


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She did, and they are more like animals than plants.
though you are correct in saying that Melkor could not create beings, but the strange discord which spread up to challenge Erus theme did.

Again : nor Melkor's discord, nor the Music of the Ainur created anything. It merely generated a vision; it granted them a model which they had to try to achieve.

From the AinulindalŽ :
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For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of thought in the Tuneless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshowing; but now they had entered in at the beginning of Time, and the Valar perceived that the World had been but foreshadowed and foresung, and they must achieve it.


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But when they were come into the Void, Ilъvatar said to them: 'Behold your Music!' And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing; and they saw a new World made visible before them, and it was globed amid the Void, and it was sustained therein, but was not of it. And as they looked and wondered this World began to unfold its history, and it seemed to them that it lived and grew.


Like already has been posted before, the strange beasts and monsters were beasts who were deformed/mutated by the malice spreading from Melkor's fortress of Utumno.
Agreed, the music was the vision. But that vision was arda itself, not how it was at first for it was Ea and remained baron and desolate but how it became.
Then the Secret Fire was sent by Eru and gave the vision Being.
So.... the vision of Ea was the template for the creation by Eru using the patterns that the Ainur wove into the music?

I wonder why Eru allowed Melkor to enter the world with the others when he knew what evil Melkor intended? Seems Eru didn't want a quiet little backwater for his creations; a bit like letting the bears loose in the kids playground....

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Seems Eru didn't want a quiet little backwater for his creations; a bit like letting the bears loose in the kids playground....
I think my 2 cents on that was posted Monday 6th February 2006 posted in Morgoths evil Too long to just copy/paste.


At the point Melkor descended to Arda, Eru had already set right Melkor's discord and Melkor was in a way already defeated.

That's why Eru just smiled and sat back with a bowl of crisps, looking at the theatre of life he had set up.
Eru did know that Melkor was evil and always would be. He knows everything that is to come in arda.
If arda was going to be a fairy land and everything just so, then what would be the point of eru sending the valar to govern it.
I'm guessing Eru wanted Man to experience some sort of tormoil in Middle Earth, in order to be able to contribute their theme in the Second Great Music.
Yeah but not just Man, Elves i am guessing as well. He wanted free will in his world so people could choose what they wanted to be.
The conflict between good and evil goes on over many ages until finally it comes to the Dagor Dagorath. Here there is a stalemate, becuase although melkor is vanquished and sent back to Eru for jusdment, the world is left vertually baron and desolate again, so Morgoth acheived his goal pretty much although he was not there to see it.
Yup Val. That is basicly what I said in the other thread. Now all have seen war, hunger, evil, curelty. Both the Valar, Maians, elves and humans. So when they all get to take part in the Second Music, they all know better what should be kept from the First Music, and what should be left out, as well as finding many new things to add.
Yes, but then probably some other Ainu would try to put in thoughts of his own into the Second Music, and start the cosmic charade all over again.

In the end there would not be a Lord of the Ring, but a Lord of the Bracelet. Big improvement.
This could be Great Music number 8 for all we know. We humans are known to mess up things, I am sure we will mess up the creation of a new earth too. Eru hould have stopped with the elves... We may have moved through the whole jewlery box already, and the Lord of the Screwdrivers is in hidding, plotting evil deeds.
Lord of the Screwdrivers? I guess that's Jim Carrey in the Cableguy?

Indeed, that one was indeed evil.
But really, even fairyland's supposed to have evil witches hidden in it, so Eru must've wanted Melkor in the game. And I'm guessing that since he put Melkor in, he was pretty aware of the whole unvanquishable evil flame that melkor would light. Even God had sinful fruits and deceptive serpents in Eden. The Allfather obviously got bored with creating paradises and decided to let real pain come in. And then, of course, he would watch how the world heals itself. Hmmm... if Eru is still watching us from above, he wouldn't be very disappointed.
No he be damn bored. How boring would this world look to him if he would have watched all since the biginning. It certainly is not paradise, yet is has no evil (true evil) in it so If I were Eru i would discard it and bring back the Powers and creatures of old.
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The conflict between good and evil goes on over many ages until finally it comes to the Dagor Dagorath. Here there is a stalemate, becuase although melkor is vanquished and sent back to Eru for jusdment, the world is left vertually baron and desolate again, so Morgoth acheived his goal pretty much although he was not there to see it.


That is not the case. After the Dagor Dagorath the Valar, with the help of the Dwarves, rebuild Ea as it was intended in the Vision. Upon realisation of Ea as it should have been without Melkor's influence, The End occurs. Ea ceases to be, and in my opinion the Elves too, while Eru, the Ainur, and Men get to sing the Second Great Music.
As the 14 original Varda were bound to Arda, would that mean they'd disappear together with the Elves? Seems a bit harsh, though very in line with Ragnarok from Norse mythology.
Life would just be humdrum, I think a without a little evil to bring about creativity. Once evil was tramped down for a while, people would add a little extra to their lives via creativity in order to bring into the world a little beauty to override the barrenness left by that evil.

Others undoubtably have strung words together to better explain this thought than I, but I think you can find the point of it in there, somehow or other.
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No he be damn bored.


You make Eru sound like a Roman patrician who enjoys watching gladiators fight to death.
What's the fun about that? I'd enjoy the water ballets more.
*rolls eyes* (mutters) Men...
Can't live with 'em; can't kill 'em legally.
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Can't live with 'em; can't kill 'em legally.

Is that a line from Zsa Zsa Gabor in the cult classic "Queen of Outer Space"?
Wow, this thread has certainly strayed since last I read it, but I shall post my comment anyway. I put some thought into it!

I looked at what you had to say on the topic, Amarie, and it is very close to what I was going to say, so I hope you donít mind me using your words!
Here we are. I hope no one is offended by any religious references, though I suppose it would be a little odd, seeing as we are discussing the religion of Middle EarthÖ There is a religious philosophy that runs somewhat along these lines- the reason we are on this Earth, is to learn Free Choice. We learn what it is, what it can do, and what to do with it
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Ö [I] think he knew there could be pain and suffering, but if the Ainur made the right choises when they took part in the music, then there wouldn't be. At least not as much. Eru still let Melkor add his song to the world, though he gave him chance to change his mind. There wouldn't be free will if there wasn't something to choose from, but it is clear that Eru didn't like what Melkor choseÖ.

The philosophy says that God set Himself rules in the beginning, to ensure the free will and agency of man. The way I have always looked at the whole beginning of ME is in this light- Eru knew what they would all do, but the Valar did not yet know even what choices they would be faced with. Eru was letting them have free agency in order to learn, and as for Melkor, Eru left him there to show that the song must be unified on purpose, that it is not some trivial game for any petty differences.
One more thing- among the rules set at the beginning- you can not be punished for what you never did. That was part of the point of Free Will. Eru, according to the laws of His own universe, had to allow Melkor to do what he would, not only as an example to others of what would happen, but so that he could be punished for the hate and malice he chose to harbor.
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As of pain and suffering. I think that in a way Eru is saying: "See now what free will created. War, murder, suffering, hunger. But also hope, love, endurance, creativity, music, art. You will all get to sing in the Second Song, the choise is yours what you add to it." In the first song the Ainur created a world for themselves and Eru's children, without fully knowing what they were making. In the second song, all will create a new world together.

When the second song was sung, Eru wanted the peoples to know what to sing. You cannot have light without darkness to see it in. You cannot have joy without sorrow to know it by. You cannot have beauty without ugliness to set the standard. You cannot choose good without evil to chose from. It is an essential part of the plan.
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ÖOr if he was refused to sing at all? Would the others feel free to pour their hearts into the world or would they hold back? Wouldn't it be a crippled creation?

If there was no evil to choose from, no dark from light, then it would have been crippled.

And thatís my two centís worth. Make of it what you will.
(Just donít beat me with sticks. That would not be nice!)
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In the first song the Ainur created a world for themselves and Eru's children, without fully knowing what they were making. In the second song, all will create a new world together.

However, Elves and Dwarves would not take part in the Second Music. Only the race of Men.

What would happen to both Elves and Dwarves, is unknown. Optimists think they'd earn their place at Eru's side, pessimists think they'd go *poof*.

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There is a religious philosophy that runs somewhat along these lines- the reason we are on this Earth, is to learn Free Choice.

Yes, but there is also a religious philosophy that says that everything is predestined. Both philosophies are applicable on Eru, it's a matter of opinion.
Tolkien's opinion, Mir. It is not a matter of our opinion, certainly not once we know what he believed in the matter. It seems to me our best "choice" would be to learn as much as we can about what he thought on this as on other points.
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It is not a matter of our opinion, certainly not once we know what he believed in the matter.

I disagree. Regardless of what JRRT believed, every person's opinion on what he wrote does matter.

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It seems to me our best "choice" would be to learn as much as we can about what he thought on this as on other points.

Tolkien's works are not an allegory. Not every single belief & opinion he had, was integrated in his works. It was merely an influence.
Even less is known about the next world of Tolkien than what is known about the Dagor dagorath so it is wise to assume that as the 'End' . For all we know Tolkien might have intended the race have men to flourish but there main form of transport was riding on ents.
Elf Confused Smilie